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Cala-s Archers ModMods

Discussion in 'FfH2 Modmods, Scenarios, and Maps' started by Calavente, Oct 29, 2013.

  1. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Joined:
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    HERE COMES VERSION 0.2.2 (still only for Emm).

    So I've started to mod based on the discussion here
    the resulting modding is based on many of the comments from the people there so thx to Terkhen, Tasunke, Qgqqqq and the other people. (Thanks too to Tholal, Kael and Co and all the other big Modders)

    I further added some changes from here and there.

    here comes a recollection of the context:
    Spoiler What is this mod :
    Summary of the changelog for version 0.2
    Spoiler What has roughly changed? :
    for version 0.2:

    active defense : ie: defending by attacking the invader.
    -same attack str as HUNTER
    -15%withdrawal and access to flanking 1
    -20% hill attack (they are the "anti-camping" unit!!) NEW

    Static defense :
    -better defense than axe/hunter : 5def str as in base game
    -double fortification bonus
    -defensive strikes

    improved defense, active and passive, in territory
    +25% str in border (so +25% when attacking in borders, and +25% when defending a city)
    access to Wall-Defender promotion when entering a city with walls or stone walls NEW

    balancing:
    --25% city attack

    Longbow : same as archer
    -between no-weapon Champion and RANGER + 6/7 str NEW
    -small collateral damages (1 unit)(not much so as not to threaten the catapults, but enough to differentiate even more from melee).
    -Drill I-2-3 : NEW (inspired by Magistermodmod (c) )

    additional things:
    -Golem promotion gives the "use-enemy-roads" effect.
    -Gargoyls can paradrop. (2ranges)
    -Marksmen lose 1move but gain free mobility I. (might be stupid on a unit required to get lvl 4.. but lo.)


    v0.2.2
    scorpion clan archer to 4/4 +1poison instead of 4/5 +1 poison
    Frostling archer at the expected 4/5 (2/3+2cold) instead of the mistake 5/5 (3/3+2 cold)
    Wall_defender SHOULD work as expected.

    v0.2.3.. soon to come
    removing the free FS of archers.. they get 15%withdrawal and their increased str, so that should be enough.
    wall-defender "on unit move" doesn't work yet.
    archers have seen their cost increase to 55 (instead of formerly 45 and MnAI60) to compensate their power.

    a few more things

    Available versions

    a version V0.2.3 for extraModMod version 0.31.
    --> just extract the .7z archive in the asset folder of extramodmod 0.31.. Don't worry I've modified only 4 files for the moment, and I left the original files so if the modmodmod doesn't please you, just suppress UnitInfos and UnitPromotionInfos and rename the ones which got the "original" added to them.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Joined:
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    CHANGELOGS
    V0.2
    1/: for adding to extramodmod 0.3.1
    Spoiler Changelog for Cala-s archers 0.1.3 for Emm0.31 :
    All archery units (save arquebuses) get
    -25city Attack
    25City defense
    25Hill defense
    20Hill ATTACK (it almost negates the defense given by hills (25%iirc) ; reasoning : they can respond more easily to the hidden defender than a quy that has to climb the hill before being able to fight)
    Withdrawal (15 for TierII archers and Crossbows, 25 for Longbows, marksmens and Flurries) + access to flanking 1 (reasoning : I want something to represent the "ambush".. that is not easily thwarted by a minor level 1 spell (I'm speaking about you .. unholy "blur" spell !!!)
    Defensive strikes.
    the ARCHERY promotion:
    _Double fortifying bonus (fortifying gives +10%def/turn until 50%)
    _+25%xp. One of the issues of archers is that the mostly defend : few combats, with best odds, and with the "defending" value : half of the attaking value… so this is to compensate. I should have made it +100%.. however, in this mod I improved the chances of archers being used in attack… so I don't want it to be too OP. Further marksmen and crossbow(flurries) will attack a lot.. so I don't want to make them OP either.
    _no more +25%str in borders...

    All archery units (even arquebuse until someone moves them to a UNITCOMBAT_GUN) get access to WALL DEFENDER PROMOTION:
    _+10 City defense (ranged unit make more use of walls than mere melee units)
    _10%collateral damage protection (might be removed)
    _+1attack str … (to show that hidden behind walls, archers can attack farther: the aim is to make archer units able to counter attack in neighboring tiles. However it doesn’t come without a cost: indeed, when attacking (ie: using this +1attack str) the archer loses the 50% defense bonus he gained while fortifying. -and I decreased longbow attack str by 1)
    _defensive strike improved. (+10%chance +5%damage)
    _wall defender only works when entering a city with WALLS… not palisades, only walls and Earth I's stone walls.
    The promotion disappears at the end of turn… unless in city.

    Miscellaneous:
    Blitz is back to needing drill4 … but longbows start with drill III out of the blue (inspired by Magistermodmod)
    Longbows get -1str : 6/7, but drill I-III : +2First strikes, +2first strike chances, +30%defensive strike, +15%damage. It seems huge, but remember, longbow are back to 6str. and have no metal weapons… and both first strikes and defensive strike are easily overcomed by shadow spells.
    Gargoyles : to 9/11.. +20%hill attack of other archers (reasoning : not ranged units.. but they FLY!!!).. and … PARADROP ability range 2 !!! they F***ing FLY!! ; maybe I should give them the flying promotion so they don't use roads…)
    Golem still get "use enemy roads".
    Gilden went back to the original 5/6 str.. he is a longbow -1str. (before, he was a longbow without metal weapons and LB were at 5/6)
    Firbows went to 5/6 str. (-1str longbows.. but they get the drill 1-2-3 promotions, and flaming arrows).
    Dexterous : back to giving +1attack str. But keeps the +10%withdrawal.
    Keen sight and precision : +10%combat (attack and defense) on top of the increased defensive strike effect
    (reasoning : why would keen sight and precision be so under powered… they need drillIV… but give each less than 1 drill promotion . !10 defstr damage OR +20%def strike chance … instead of +1FS (+1FSChance for drill4) +5%def strike damage +10%def strike chance…… taking 2drill promotion give the same def strike advantage as the cumulated keen sight and precision.. and on top of that, the drill promotion give first strikes.. AND drill III and drill IV gives collateral damage protection, and drill IV further give bonus against mounted unit)

    Spoiler details :
    ARCHER: 45H, 4/5str, 25CityDef, -25CityAtt, 20Hill attack, 25HillDef, 15%withdrawal, 10def strike damage, 20%chance
    SCORPION CLAN ARCHER: 45H, 4/5str +1poison, 25CD, -25CA, 20Hill attack,25HD, 15%withdrawal, 10def strike damage, 20%chance
    DWARVEN SLINGER: 35H, 4/5str, 25CD, -35CA, 20Hill attack, 40HD, 15%withdrawal, 10def strike damage, 20%chance, 10%vs beasts, 10%vs mounted (due to david vs goliath and dwarvs being good against big-sized animals; even horses)
    JAVELIN THROWER: 45H, 5/4str, 25CD, -35CA, 10Hill attack, 25HD, 25%withdrawal, 10def strike damage, 20%chance
    FROSTLING ARCHER: 45H, 3str +1cold damage , 25CD, -25CA, 25HD, 15%withdrawal, 10def strike damage, 20%chance

    LONGBOW: 120H, 6/7str, 25CD, -25CA, 20Hill attack, 25HD, 25%withdrawal, 10colldamage, max25, 1target, 15def strike damage, 30%chance, free drill I-II-III
    FIREBOW: 120H, 5/6str, 25CD, -10CA, 20Hill attack, 25HD, 25%withdrawal, 15def strike damage, 30%chance + FireI + channeling II + free flaming arrows (-10%CA is for them to get 25% CA with the flaming arrows promotion ; but they get less real str than longbows ; longbows can eventually get flaming arrows too; and no collateral damage : their fireballs are enough.) free drill I-II-III
    GARGOYLE: 180H, move 2, 9/11, 25CD, 20Hill attack, 25%build with marble, paradrop 2 (only +2/+1 vs vanilla emm0.31); (they get access to archery promotion because the effects are ok: as they already had defender, which is replaced by archery here)

    NIGHTWATCH: 120H, 4/3str +2poison +bronze/iron weapons (total from 6/5 to 8/7), 15CD, -25CA, 15Hill attack, 15HD, 25%withdrawal, 6colldamage, max15, 1target, 15def strike damage, 30%chance (added only collateral, withdrawal and CD/HD vs the emm0.31version, but with less str than longbows even for basic city def , hill attack, and hill def: unit is more night-POLICE than ARMY).

    MARKSMAN: 240H, 11str, 1mvt, min level 4 (instead of 6) 30%withdrawal, 60colldamage, max50, 1target, 20def strike damage, 40%chance, bronze/iron/mithril weapon ; free blitz , free mobility I.
    (nice effect IMO : target weaker unit, colldamage another unit, then target that unit in turn... (or a weaker one) :D and IMO blitz is NOT OP for them as while the have huge strength, they can ONLY target "weak" units…)

    CROSSBOW: 240H, 10/12 str (instead of ffh 9/13), 25CD, -25CA, 20Hill attack, 25HD, 15%withdrawal, 15def strike damage, 30%chance ; bronze/iron weapons : Stronger than longbow on an hammer basis (11+2=13 for 240H vs 6 for 120H for longbows; but less withdrawal rate and no collateral ).
    FLURRY: 240H, 2move, 12/10str (instead of ffh12/12), 25CD, -25CA, 20Hill attack, 25HD, 25%withdrawal , 10colldamage, max25, 1target, 20def strike damage, 40%chance ; bronze/iron weapons + blitz (those are longbows on steroids : lower defense vs vanilla + withdrawal and collateral damage which is the same as longbows… for ljos, those now play a different role than marksmen… instead of marksmen being weaker than flurries)

    ARQUEBUS: no change : 180H 10str 30%defstrike 15%defstrikedamage : get the archery promotion only if upgraded from archer units, unless someone make them "unitClass_GUN".

    Other unit_class balancing aspect
    BERSERKER : collateral of 40, 60max, 6target (already in EMM)

    Promotions:
    ARCHERY: double fortification bonus; + 25%xp

    BLITZ : back at drill4, as longbows get an free access to drill 3
    DEXTEROUS (for ljosalfar);: +1attack str +10%withdrawal.
    DEFENSIVE: opened at combat2 OR drill 2
    COVER1 : needs DRILL 1 instead of COMBAT1 : no early cover1 for 2xp aggressive leaders.
    DRILL LINE :: D1 : FS, D2: FS, D3: 2FSC, D4 : FS+FSC (instead of FSC / FS / 2FSC / 2FS) ; thx tasunke (iirc)
    FLAMING ARROWS: 1Fire damage +35%City Attack (brings archers to 10% and javelins to 0% ; IMO not OP as archers still don't get access to City Attack promotions)
    FLANKING 1: opened to archery line. (Flanking 2 is still closed to archery line).
    FORMATION 1: needs combat 2 or Drill 2
    FORMATION 2 : needs formation1 AND combat 2 (getting formation 1 from the combat line enables the formation 2 more quickly)
    GOLEM : The racial promotion GOLEM get the "travel over enemy roads" feat ; but not the first strike of the commando promotion. (This is to reflect the fact that golems are not bothered by the local peasant poisoning the water holes or hiding/burning the food.) + it is IMO a needed point to help those Luirchips.
    GUARDSMAN: is available to archery units.


    Heros:
    ARTHENDAIN: 180H, 10str (instead of 9), 25CD, -25CA, 25HD (instead of 0/0/0), 20def strike damage, 40%chance + 15%withdrawal, 6colldamage, max15, 1target, (instead of 0/0/0/0)
    TEUTORIX. Arquebus man : no change
    GILDEN : 120H, 6str, 25CD, -25CA, 25HD, 25%withdrawal, 10colldamage, max25, 1target, 15def strike damage, 30%chance (it is normally a longbow … without access to metal weapons : so I translated that to : Longbow -1str) (take into account that here, dexterous does not give +1attack str, but "only" 20%attackstr and +1xp/combat +10%withdrawal.)


    V0.1
    1/: for adding to extramodmod 0.3.1
    Spoiler Changelog for Cala-s archers 0.1.3 for Emm0.31 :
    CHANGELOG
    Cala's archer version 0.1 for terkhen's ExtraModMod 0.31 ; needs EMM version 0.31

    Note All archery units save guns (arquebuses) get the ARCHERY promotion

    ARCHER: 45H, 4/5str, 25CityDef, -25CityAtt, 25HillDef, 15%withdrawal, 10def strike damage, 20%chance
    SCORPION CLAN ARCHER: 45H, 4/5str +1poison, 25CD, -25CA, 25HD, 15%withdrawal, 10def strike damage, 20%chance
    DWARVEN SLINGER: 35H, 4/5str, 25CD, -25CA, 40HD, 15%withdrawal, 10def strike damage, 20%chance, 10%vs beasts, 10%vs mounted (due to david vs goliath and dwarvs being good against big-sized animals; even horses)
    JAVELIN THROWER: 45H, 5/4str, 25CD, -35CA, 25HD, 25%withdrawal, 10def strike damage, 20%chance
    FROSTLING ARCHER: 45H, 3str +1cold damage , 25CD, -25CA, 25HD, 15%withdrawal, 10def strike damage, 20%chance

    LONGBOW: 120H, 7str, 25CD, -25CA, 25HD, 25%withdrawal, 10colldamage, max25, 1target, 15def strike damage, 30%chance
    FIREBOW: 120H, 6str, 25CD, -10CA, 25HD, 25%withdrawal, 15def strike damage, 30%chance + FireI + channeling II + free flaming arrows (-10%CA is for them to get 25% CA with the flaming arrows promotion ; but they get less real str than longbows ; longbows can eventually get flaming arrows too; and no collateral damage : their fireballs are enough.)
    GARGOYLE: 180H, move 2, 9, 25CD, 25%build with marble (only +2/+1 vs vanilla emm0.31); (they get access to archery promotion because the effects are ok: as they already got defender, and +25% in own border is adequate; in luirchip borders there are lots of statues.. how would you differentiate the gargoyles ones from the purely decorative???)

    NIGHTWATCH: 120H, 4/3str +2poison +bronze/iron weapons (total from 6/5 to 8/7), 15CD, -25CA, 15HD, 25%withdrawal, 6colldamage, max15, 1target, 15def strike damage, 30%chance (added only collateral, withdrawal and CD/HD vs the emm0.31version, but with less str than longbows even for basic city def and hill def: unit is more night-POLICE than ARMY).

    MARKSMAN: 240H, 11str, 2mvt, min level 4 (instead of 6) 30%withdrawal, 60colldamage, max50, 1target, 20def strike damage, 40%chance, bronze/iron/mithril weapon ; free blitz
    (nice effect IMO : target weaker unit, colldamage another unit, then target that unit in turn... (or a weaker one) :D and IMO blitz is NOT OP for them as while the have huge strength, they can ONLY target "weak" units…)

    CROSSBOW: 240H, 10/12 str (instead of ffh 9/13), 25CD, -25CA, 25HD, 15%withdrawal, 15def strike damage, 30%chance ; bronze/iron weapons : Stronger than longbow on an hammer basis (11+2=13 for 240H vs 6 for 120H for longbows; but less withdrawal rate and no collateral ).
    FLURRY: 240H, 2move, 12/10str (instead of ffh12/12), 25CD, -25CA, 25HD, 25%withdrawal , 10colldamage, max25, 1target, 20def strike damage, 40%chance ; bronze/iron weapons + blitz ; those are badass units: longbows on steroids : lower defense vs vanilla + withdrawal and collateral damage which is the same as longbows) (for ljos, those now play a different role than marksmen… instead of marksmen being weaker than flurries)

    ARQUEBUS: no change : 180H 10str 30%defstrike 15%defstrikedamage : get the archery promotion only if upgraded from archer units, unless someone make them "unitClass_GUN".

    Other unit_class balancing aspect
    BERSERKER : collateral of 40, 60max, 6target (already in EMM)

    Promotions:
    ARCHERY: double fortification bonus + 25% in borders
    (To boost the archer units as being empire defence, active and passive instead of jack of all trade like melee: for me it represents the increased ability to ambush enemies when you know the land. Imagine it as every improvement bringing fortification bonus and ambush points to those archers; incidentally it works like giving 50%CD as you'll only have cities in your own borders, for a grand total of +100% for archery units fortified in a city for 5turns, versus the current +50%).

    BLITZ : comes at DRILL2 for units with the ARCHERY promotion but still needs the military strategy tech (indeed, blitz is very important for making those defensive strikes useful !!, getting to fire in defence only once per turn is a huge drawback)
    DEXTEROUS (for ljosalfar);: +20%attack str +1xp/combat +10%withdrawal. (instead of +1att str)
    DEFENSIVE: opened at combat2 OR drill 2
    COVER1 : needs DRILL 1 instead of COMBAT1 : no early cover1 for 2xp aggressive leaders.
    DRILL LINE :: D1 : FS, D2: FS, D3: 2FSC, D4 : FS+FSC (instead of FSC / FS / 2FSC / 2FS) ; thx tasunke (iirc)
    FLAMING ARROWS: 1Fire damage +35%City Attack (brings archers to 10% and javelins to 0% ; IMO not OP as archers still don't get access to City Attack promotions)
    FLANKING 1: opened to archery line. (Flanking 2 is still closed to archery line).
    FORMATION 1: needs combat 2 or Drill 2
    FORMATION 2 : needs formation1 AND combat 2 (getting formation 1 from the combat line enables the formation 2 more quickly)
    GOLEM : The racial promotion GOLEM get the "travel over enemy roads" feat ; but not the first strike of the commando promotion. (This is to reflect the fact that golems are not bothered by the local peasant poisoning the water holes or hiding/burning the food.) + it is IMO a needed point to help those Luirchips.
    GUARDSMAN: is available to archery units.


    Heros:
    ARTHENDAIN: 180H, 10str (instead of 9), 25CD, -25CA, 25HD (instead of 0/0/0), 20def strike damage, 40%chance + 15%withdrawal, 6colldamage, max15, 1target, (instead of 0/0/0/0)
    TEUTORIX. Arquebus man : no change
    GILDEN : 120H, 6str, 25CD, -25CA, 25HD, 25%withdrawal, 10colldamage, max25, 1target, 15def strike damage, 30%chance (it is normally a longbow … without access to metal weapons : so I translated that to : Longbow -1str) (take into account that here, dexterous does not give +1attack str, but "only" 20%attackstr and +1xp/combat +10%withdrawal.)
    NOTE on expected Balance issue for V0.1:
    Spoiler balancing issues :
    Archers are now MUCH stronger than before.
    IMO, they might even be OP in defence : they now get +100% when fortified 5turns in a city : this leads to a total of .. 12str for a combat II archer (ie 5xp: level 3).
    Comparatively a BRONZE axe needs .. combat I-V + CA1 or Combat I-III + CA1-2 to get 12.5 : level 7 or 8
    An IRON Axe needs combat I-V, or Combat III+CA1 to get 12.6 : level : 6 or 7 !
    A no-weapons AXE CANNOT get a 5xp archer to 50%odds, whatever his experience !!!

    This doesn't take count of drill, cover/shock or… HILL DEFENSE or … BASIC CITY DEFENSE (nor CA3 and CD3)

    In emm0.31, to get those odds, the archer (3/5) needed at least to have combat V (level6) or combat III +CDI (level 5) or combat I + CDI-II (level4)
    This change is dramatic.

    To counter it, I would need to either:
    - remove +25% in borders from promotion_archery (but I really need +25% attack in border for the skirmishing effect)
    - remove +25% defense in borders in promotion_archery (would be the best, but there are no tags for that)
    -remove the 25% CD: it works, and the 25% in borders should suffice to boost city def: next to best, but then not thematic for some people: archer is supposed to defend better in city than in countryside.
    -remove the double fortification bonus from promotion_archery: but I love this one, and find it really realistic.
    -put the basic archer at 4defense but then, an archer, walking in enemy territory get… 4str total ..(save on hills) and thus cannot be a stack defender anywhere in foreign lands; would need to put javelin thrower at 5/3.. which would be very very bad for illian's defense.

    So, at the moment I'm leaving it like that, but IMO, soon, I do one of the changes above ; I'm willing to hear any thoughts on this.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    Context and Aims ; extracts from the discussion here
    Spoiler What is this mod :
     
  4. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    Things to do:
    _play-test that
    _perfect the unitAI
    _see the balance of basic archers in defense I'm asking (begging ???) for any thoughts on this.
    Spoiler balancing issues :
    Archers are now MUCH stronger than before.
    IMO, they might even be OP in defence : they now get +100% when fortified 5turns in a city : this leads to a total of .. 12str for a combat II archer (ie 5xp: level 3).
    Comparatively a BRONZE axe needs .. combat I-V + CA1 or Combat I-III + CA1-2 to get 12.5 : level 7 or 8
    An IRON Axe needs combat I-V, or Combat III+CA1 to get 12.6 : level : 6 or 7 !
    A no-weapons AXE CANNOT get a 5xp archer to 50%odds, whatever his experience !!!

    This doesn't take count of drill, cover/shock or… HILL DEFENSE or … BASIC CITY DEFENSE (nor CA3 and CD3)

    In emm0.31, to get those odds, the archer (3/5) needed at least to have combat V (level6) or combat III +CDI (level 5) or combat I + CDI-II (level4)
    This change is dramatic.

    To counter it, I would need to either:
    - remove +25% in borders from promotion_archery (but I really need +25% attack in border for the skirmishing effect)
    - remove +25% defense in borders in promotion_archery (would be the best, but there are no tags for that)
    -remove the 25% CD: it works, and the 25% in borders should suffice to boost city def: next to best, but then not thematic for some people: archer is supposed to defend better in city than in countryside.
    -remove the double fortification bonus from promotion_archery: but I love this one, and find it really realistic.
    -put the basic archer at 4defense but then, an archer, walking in enemy territory get… 4str total ..(save on hills) and thus cannot be a stack defender anywhere in foreign lands; would need to put javelin thrower at 5/3.. which would be very very bad for illian's defense.

    So, at the moment I'm leaving it like that, but IMO, version 0.2 will have one of the changes above ;
    _evaluate the balance of those archers.

    _what about giving collateral even to basic archer ? (+1str, +15%withdrawal, +25% in borders might not be enough to have archers as good active-defense units...)

    _what about giving back metal weapons ? (currently, the only scalability of archers is with ENCHANTEMENT_II, while axes and chariots got metal weapons to carry them further in the game.)


    _transpose same changes for EMTP, EITB, MNAI.. and Rife.
    _do all that while having a "versionisation" of the changes for easy transposal when the main mods update.. (hardest part IMO)
     
  5. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    update version 0.1.3 : "bug-free" : civilization launched without xml exceptions !!
     
  6. lfgr

    lfgr King

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  7. Alioch

    Alioch Chieftain

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    That's my bro !!!
    :goodjob:

    'll try it as soon as possible.

    Archer might become op as defender. i.e you can't take a city if 1 poor little archer defend... :spear:

    Lvl 1 phalanx may not be enought vs lvl 1 archer in city... so vs longbow it would be impossible.

    Maybe make all melee but warrior (or champion and higher) with bonus CA ?

    It ruin a bit my play style, but it make it more realistic : horses can't use ladder nor break walls so they can't take a city.:wallbash:
    --> each unit type a true purpose : melee = city attack ; recon = wild/animal/forest attack ; archer = active def ; horses = pillage/attack but not for city :deadhorse:; cat = collateral/city att.

    Tell you more when played.
     
  8. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    Okay !

    so now I've uploaded version 0.2 !! yeepee !
    the balance is a bit different.
    mostly I added the wall defender promotion ... beware of mobility 1, hasted longbows 9 tiles away from a walled city (bad balance issue :D)
    (and removed 25%in borders.. so now, defending archer is "only" +75% versus the former +50% .. and for longbows they are 7+75% versus the former iron longbow 9+50%)
    and adjusted some things here and there.

    I lost some time trying to do it modular... but it didn't work as expected.
    It seems I have to port the whole list of tags... I cannot "just" add the few changes per unit I made in the module, I need to bring the whole list of tags for every unit and promotions.. I'll test it again.

    without modular, porting it to MnAI will be tedious.. but even more so for EiTB and RifE...
    expect some news on this next week.. or the week after.
     
  9. scutarii

    scutarii King

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    on archer descripition "txt-key promotion ranged"

    never bothered to play ljofo due to sucking racial ability, will give a shot now
     
  10. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    arg.. where did you find the exception ? in the civilopedia ?
    I'm pretty sur I didn't changed that.. I'll go look.
    I've found the issue ; thx:
    I started v0.2 from v0.1 instead of v0.1.3 ... so promotion archery had TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_RANGED instead of TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_ARCHERY which is present in the TEXT_FFH
    updated in the NEW version v0.2.1
     
  11. scutarii

    scutarii King

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    barbarain archers are insanely strong now....almost nothing you can do vs pillaging barb archers....weak promo is must for them..and/ or remove +1 poison...also I'd add 10% + to cover promotion.

    Walld defender description is on screen bu no effect...

    Due to strong archers - civs are not wiped off due to bad lair results or bronze warrior rushing - I like it....
     
  12. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    ok. the scorpion archer are "on design".. they had previously 3/5 +1poison.. so I put them at 4/5 +1 poison..
    I'll take your comment into account.
    wall defender is given to units but has no effect ?
    or it is not given to units ?

    I'll look into it
     
  13. scutarii

    scutarii King

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    wall defender is not given to units.... built BEFORE walls. Units drafted and built after walls get this promo correctly...

    also frostling archers from samhain are pain in the ass....+2 cold ??? (previously had +1)

    archers can beat lizzys, warriors but opponent archers are the problem ( archers cannot take cover promo???)
     
  14. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    frostlings are normally
    2/3+ 2cold.. for a total of 4/5, where they 3/4 total before ?

    lizzy and warrior is normal: 4/5 +15%withdraw is better than

    opponent archer are a pb everywhere ? when you attack or when you defend ? in city?

    for the walldefender .. the walls have the "applypromotiononmove" set at 1.. so it should work.
    (it works like that for caveman to cosmos...)

    however, the expire chance is 100%.. so maybe it disappear just after being given...
    I'll check soon with no expiry to see if the issue is a too quick disappearrance or that it is not given.
     
  15. scutarii

    scutarii King

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    ALL THIS TAKES INTO ACCOUNT DEXTERIOUS PROMOTION FROM PLAYER!
    archer vs archer is fifty-fifty on plains

    archers with wall defender promo has apporx 75% chance to win on attack vs archer

    bronze swordman w/o experience promos has 43% vs archer w/o experience promos on the field

    archer with wall defender has 78% vs bronze swordman.


    In short, bronze warriors are no match vs archers, and that's the problem...on the field archers have 80% vs bronze warriors.

    Sure, in other mods bronze warriors did not beat archers but at the same time - archers could not do much vs bronze warriors either. Now archers own bronze warriors (w/o combat experience from both)

    "ranger " attecker promo "doubles defensive bonus" - the same effect as "defensive" promotion...does it miean - the two promos are stacking ?

    on the field "normal" (w/o dexterious) archer vs bronze warrior - 53%

    normal archer with wall defender vs bronze warrior - 80%
     
  16. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    yeah.. I noticed when waking up that you could only get 50/50.. with ljosalfar archers.. :D
    but then it is normal for ljos archer to be somehow OP.. otherwise, why use archers when playing ljos :D

    ok.
    so I THINK i've found the trick for applying wall defender.
    it seems that contrarily to what has been done in FFH folders.. the bApplyFreePromotionOnMove tag needs.. not a 1 or 0 .. but .. a "textonly".. that should teach me to read the infoSchema file.. grrrr.
    so now in version 0.2.2 I'll try it like that.

    (did you know that altar of luonnatar BLESSED or higher is supposed to give BLESSED to any passing units ? and HOPE spell gives COURAGE to any passing units ? and not only built units..
    Could ANYONE (even not using my modmod) please test if altar blessed and/or hope really give these promotions to passing units?)


    (however I wont be able to test it myself until .. mid of next week, so I'll be delighted if you could test it).
    At worst, there are no more Wall-defender-promotion applied to any units.


    --------------------
    bronze sword vs archer on plain : 43%.. I suppose the free 1first strike of archer is having its effect (but, please note that this FS was already there before my mod. so I suppose these odds were already in vanilla emm0.3.1)
    idem for bronze warriors attacking archer in plain : same odds as in MnAI or emm (same str).
    however, if the archer is fortified, indeed archers are better than before, but not by much.

    ljos archer vs bronze warrior : 80%.. why not (bronze axe vs bronze warrior should be about the same: 5 attack vs 4 def)

    archer with wall defender should be in attack : 5str (save for ljos) same as bronze axe defense.
    archer with wall defender should be in attack : 5str (save for ljos) greater than bronze warrior defense... I'm happy with that.
    So, here I changed the balance a lot, but the odds sould be lower : 54% or something, taking into account only the FS.

    Ljos archers with wall defender : 6str .. they own bronze axe : normal ; I'm not balancing for ljos archers. but for other.

    Imo, that means that the issue you have are mostly linked to the dexterous promotion than with other mechanics.. is that right ?

    OR, maybe you think that wall defender is too huge and I should give +20%attack instead of +1str ?
    but then the odds would be almost the same, with unpromoted archer wall defender at 4+20% =4.8 vs bronze warrior 4...

    I wanted that an archer (tier 2) behind a wall (second tier2 tech) be able to repell an invading stack of bronze-warriors (tier1.5), and even prevent them from pillaging.
    I want archers to be at least as efficient as bronze axes to defend their empire.
    Currently, bronze axes (5/5) own bronze warrior, and there is no complaint.
    So bronze axes are BETTER empire defender than archers... (without promotions) (as they lose only 25%city defense, but have +2 attack str..that is bad IMO.
    (and even in my modmod but without the wall_defender promotion: bronze axe is 5/5, archer is 4/5 +15%withdrawal : archer is less good than axes in empire defense)
    that is why I improved archers in attack.

    However, if I pushed the balance too far away, I may have to change something...
    for the moment i'm not changing wall defender ... maybe early game it is a bit OP, but with longbows it should come out ok (6+1str, so iron champs defend easily from walled_longbows. (previously, longbows often had +2str for a total of 7/9... now it is 7/7 as no iron weapons for LB).


    for defensive promotion.. maybe I should forbid it for archers... or give it for free to archer so there is no "double effect" ... but then archery only gives +25% xp .. should I crash the archery promotion.. let me think about that.
     
  17. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    so as version 0.2.2 didn't cure the "on unit move" effect and produced much xml errors, I went back to the old "1" in "bApplyFreePromotionOnMove"

    to take your comments into account I've increased archers cost by 10 : now it is 55 :hammers: instead of axes 45:hammers: or warrior 25:hammers:.
    I hope it'll do the trick for balancing archers vs warrior and axes.

    Well, now it is once again playable, but as mentionned above not really working as intended as the wall_defender promotion doesnt apply as wanted.
     
  18. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    Hi again.
    i'm asking a question to the community:
    In fact, I'm making a big wall of text to:
    -make an analysis about archer OPness
    -imagining some solution
    -explain the reasoning behind the solutions
    -asking for input on analysis... solution... and reasoning!


    for the moment, archers might be a "bit" OP: 4/5 +15%withdraw +25%xp.
    1) experience
    Spoiler :
    Example :
    I had homeland for a +10%in borders +10%withdraw
    I have not yet build any walls (or at least the wall_defender promotion doesn't apply, I don't know why).

    while more expensive than axes, I crushed Orthus, Combat5, with 4 archers 1 dead, 2 withdraw, last made the kill .

    total: 220hammers to kill Orthus combatV
    Is it OP ? (9 warriors would kill orthus no ?) (but what might be OP is that I got only 1 dead).

    then : in my empire : no warrior stack can take a settlement... (5str, + 50% fortification +25%city def, +20% hill +20%hill def : 11 str or so).
    I crush, with little difficulty, any axes or bronze warrior stack: pre-emptive attack on incoming goblin...etc

    with great general (+1str, +25%xp) I grew an archer to 170xp easily... and can attack warriors in cities.

    information for balance : 5str bronze axe have an easier job for taking cities, but they die often unless promoted, while unpromoted archers have less chance, but die less often...

    -a fortified goblin archer in a goblin fort on a hill is impossible to kill with my archer.
    is that OP ?

    2) Analysis not counting archer
    Spoiler :
    here are the parameters :
    tier 2
    -melee : 1 move ; 4str +1 or +2 with ressource and tech (tier 2, tier3)
    -recon : 2 move ; 4str +1 with lvl2 spell (tier 3)
    -mounted: 3 move : 4str

    tier2.5:
    -diseased corpse 1move (cannot be hasted) : 6str +1 /2 /4depending on tech (mean of 8)
    -assassin : 2move : 6/4 + 1 with spell lvl 2 : (mean of 6), target weakest

    tier 3 :
    -melee : 1 move ; 6str +1 or +2 or +4 with ressource and tech (tier 2, tier3, tier4 techs) (6-10str)
    -recon : 2 move ; 7str +1 with lvl2 spell (tier 3) (7-8str)
    -mounted: 3 move : 6str + immune FS +high withdraw OR 5/3 +1/+2 (5/3 - 6/4 - 7/5: mean of 4-5 or 6) depending on tier2/tier3 techs and resources/ (4-6str)
    -priests : 1 move : 5str + divine spell
    -lunatic (1move) 7/4 +1 +2 +4 depending on tech : 5.5-9.5 + collateral + crazed
    -monk : 2move : 6str + medic
    Conclusion: The trend I see following FFH is :
    1 move + X: is worth 1 str in potential for growth.
    X is either : 25%withdrawal or 25% vs animal, target weakest in stack, medic...et
    X is thus worth 0.25str-0.5str

    verification :
    HA: 6str + 3 move + 35withdraw + immune FS: 6 + (2*0.5) + 2*0.5 (25%withdraw and 10%withdraw +immuneFS) : worth a 1 move 8str unit : champion : 1 move 6-10 str: HA is worth more at beginning, champion is worth more end game.

    3)Application to archers:
    Spoiler :
    what does FFH has for archer :
    tier 2 :move 1: 3/5 +25%CD +25%HD +def strike +1spell level 2 : 4-5 +defense
    tier 3 :move 1: 5/6 +1 / 2 depending on tech (tier 2-3) +25cd +25hd +def strike +1str spell level 2 : 5.5-8.5 + defense (melee is 6-10... and spell gives 25%str: 7-12)

    This means that for FFH : 25CD +25Hd +def strike compensate for a growth of 1str/1.5 : this si wrong, especially with the issue of being mainly defense which leads to no versatility and lower xp gain) ==> this is clearly doubly wrong.

    what does my mod mod, version 0.2, have?
    tier 2: 4/5 +1 spell lvl 2, +def strike + CD +HD + withdrawal + -25CA : 4.5-5.5 (instead of 4-6)
    tier 3 : 6/7 +1 spell lvl 2 +def strike + CD +HD + withdrawal + -25CA, free drill 1-2 : 6.5-7.5 (instead of 6-10)

    let say that the withdrawal is worth 0.5str (15% for archer, 25% for LB)
    and that "def strike,cd, hd" compensate the -25CA and the fact that attack is lower than def. (I count def strike as low value as it works only once per turn, with low odds, and only works in defense, without giving xp to the unit)

    then we have :
    tier 2 : worth 5-6 instead of melee 4-6
    tier 3 : worth 7-8 instead of melee 6-10
    Archer is worth more than melee
    Longbow is worth more than melee without weapon, and worth less than champion end game.
    4)conclusion:
    in FFH : archer worth less than axe / longbow: worth less than champ.

    in Cala's archers:
    Archer is worth more than melee
    Longbow is worth more than melee without weapon, and worth less than champion end game.

    5) Solution in Cala's archers: :

    1)archer needs to be balanced toward a lower worth.
    2) archers and especially longbows need something to boost them endgame



    6) Propositions:
    point 1)
    1.a) increase cost of archer to tier 2.5 value instead of tier 2--> is it sufficient ?
    1.b): decrease archer back to 3/5 (worth 4.5-5.5... but losing polyvalency: tweaked a lot toward defense, save the 10%withdrawal)
    1.c) decrease archer to 4/4 (but they keep the double fortification bonus) : worth 4.5-5.5, without losing polyvalency, but being less good in def than could be attained.

    points 2) :
    3.a.1) a promotion, unlocked with tech + (resource +/- building +/- level) gives +1/0str and +double fortification bonus. (or +1/1 str) which is free when condition are met.
    --> lets call this promotion : "war-trained".

    3.a.2) a promotion, unlocked with tech + (resource +/- building +/- level) gives +1/1str . it costs a level / double fortification is kept on unit.

    3.b) Wall defender works and give +1str attacking from city ; and "war trained" gives not 1att str, but +1str attacking from hills,

    3.c) ??? ANY IDEA ?


    let think about "war trained":
    Spoiler :
    aim: boost longbow / archer for mid-late game
    -if one considers that un-promoted archer / longbow are worth as much as bronze melee : wartrained should not replace "bronze weapons" for melee
    -if one consider that flaming arrow is a weak "iron weapons" (tier 3 tech), (+1str vs bronze, but iron weapon doesn't need bronze AND is autoacquired, without need of a lvl4 unit nor micromanagement)

    Then "war trained" needs to be equivalent to a mid-value between iron and mithril weapons: tier 3.5.

    in order to get a value of tier 3.5 :
    1) needs a tier 3.5 tech in the archery line
    2) needs a tier 3 tech out of the archery line
    3) any of the above + a requirement : resource (tier 1.5-2-2.5 tech +resource issue) or level.

    thematical techs:
    --> (warfare (tier2) + bowyer) or military strategy (tier 3)
    thematical resources : see below
    levels : lvl 4 or lvl 6 : can be limited by the promo prerequists or by a level requirement.


    Here are my current roamings:
    Spoiler :

    Conditions for the promotion:
    A)Promotion War-trained/warbows:
    -war trained : "warfare tech" + "bowyer tech"+ min level 5 + combat II AND drill II. (automatically assigned, or costs a promotion but gives a free promotion pick).

    B)second option for war-trained:
    - Military Strategy + needs combat II / drill II (aggressive leaders or longbow can get that without needing level 5: agressives at lvl4, longbows at level 3, aggresive longbows at level 2).

    C) Third option : "War-bows":
    - Warefare + bowyer techs + resource (silk or bronze or cow or nature mana). (silk: as the only tree-ressource, bronze for strengthening the bow, cow for the horn, nature mana for strengthening the wood) : once you know warfare and bowyer, your artisans can build warbows.

    D) Fourth option : "War-bows": (for weaker effect)
    - Warefare + crafting + resource (silk or bronze or cow or nature mana). (silk: as the only tree-ressource, bronze for strengthening the bow, cow for the horn, nature mana for strengthening the wood) : once you know warfare and bowyer, your artisans can build warbows.

    For the units
    Alpha: mid-game ; archers sucky until early-mid game
    -archer : 3/5 (same Hammers as axe) 25CD -25CA def str 25HD 20HA 15%with
    -javeliner : 4/4 (+ things as before)... +"war trained" (to but them directly at 5/4)
    -longbow : 6/7 (+ as before no doubleF)
    wartrained : option A or C
    wartrained = 1/0 + doubleF

    Beta : for the mid-late game (however archer suck double time until enchant2) : war trained
    -archer : 3/4 (same Hammers as axe) 25CD -25CA def str 25HD 20HA 15%with + doubleF
    -javeliner : 4/3 (+ things as before)...
    -longbow : 6/7 (+ as before) (thus end as 6.5-8.5 + 0.5 equivalent : 7-9 vs champ 6-10)
    wartrained : option B
    wartrained = 1/1
    thus Beta bis: inversion of enchant 1 and 2 : to improve early-mid game for archers.

    Gamma : for the early-mid : warbows improves defense from fixed position and improves ambush technics
    -archer : 4/4 (same Hammers as axe) 25CD -25CA def str 25HD 20HA No withdrawal + doubleF
    -javeliner : 5/3 (+ things as before)... + warbows
    -longbow : 7/7 (+ as before, 10% withdrawal)
    warbow: option D
    Warbow = 0/1 + 15% withdrawal

    Delta : for the mid-late game (more balanced for early game archers: cost / and late game longbows : +1attack str)
    -archer : 4/5 70Hammers ( or 90 in FFH : tier 2.5 value) 25CD -25CA def str 25HD 20HA 15%with
    -javeliner : 5/3 (+ things as before)...
    -longbow : 6/7 (+ as before no doubleF)
    wartrained : option A or C
    wartrained = 1/0 + double F
    7) According to you
    -are archers OP ? in my modmod
    -are longbows in need of a boost end game ?
    -do you have any ideas for objectives 1), 2) and 3) ?

    -of my proposals, which seems the best to you ?
    which solution is best : alpha / beta / gamma / delta ?
     
  19. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    finished my game.
    I noticed that the AI got the wall defender promotion in their cities... but me never.

    even when I built archer units AFTER i built the wall in the city.


    --> I'll change wall-defender into "Supplied" and link it to archery range instead of Walls.
    thus all archery units will always be eligible to the promotion :D
    I'll remove the 10%def from archery range to compensate. grrr. (leaving it a 15% def for EMM)


    / currently working on the balance issue.
    --> I've chosen to remove the "archery promotion".
    --> I've given the effects (double-defensive / +25%xp) to the "war-trained promotion".
    --> War-Trained: need drill2, combat 4 OR Drill 4, Military strategy tech (longbows get access at drill 2) gives +1/0, double fortify, +25%xp / stays upon upgrade.

    --> archers stay at 4/5, but they lose the 25%xp, the double fortify, keep the 15%withdrawal...etc and go up to tier 2.5 cost : 70 in EMM (vs axes at 45 and warriors at 25) (with the "supplied" promotion applied, archers in city are worth more than bronze axes)

    --> Longbows no longer get "Drill 1-3" ; instead they get Drill4 (1FS, 1 FSchance, 20%collateral damage protection 10%vs mounted, 10%def strike chance, 5%def strike damage)
    (so you may want to upgrade archers to drill 1-3 and not worry of "wasting" the promotion upon upgrading; as a corrolary : Blitz needs drill 2 and drill 4 (easier to get drill for longbows than other units), and precision and keen sight need drill3 and drill4 : so longbows cannot buy them directly : they need at least 3 promotions of investment).

    --> champion/berserk get 10% city attack / axes get 15% CA (angels, demons, and ogres are not changed)(phalanx are already at 25%CA in EMM) (champions have 25%vs melee...but I didn't notice it worth more than 2.5axes (120hammers instead of 45H axes)




    Well, now I'll have to re-evaluate the str of archers with this, and with a leader without homeland...
     
  20. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    base archers were still too strong.

    and I never seen the "supplied" promotion on my units.
    So I suppose (unless someone found "wall defender" on his own units), that the promotion is applied at end of turn (to all units in city) but is removed at beginning of turn due to the 100% removal rate...

    is there a way to get a promotion have a duration of 2 turns ?

    I decided to move archers to 3/5 ... (only redeeming factor vs vanilla is the 15%withdrawal ; the 20%vs hills is compensation for the -25CA). However, as first promotion, getting +25withdrawal is nice.
    hopefully I'll get the supplied/walldefender working and that'll give you 4/5str in empire... so it will be ok.

    currently playing that way and it seems to work (but the map (prince) is not really comptetive, with lanun, I got to marksmen before entering into any wars.. and the top-dog malakim is freindly with me.

    I'll release this version when i'll be able to test it on a more competitive map, and be able to see if base archers are ok, still understrenghted, or still too powerful
     

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