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California to get a 59% increase on insurance premiums

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Archbob, Jan 7, 2011.

  1. Terxpahseyton

    Terxpahseyton Awake

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    As the employer has just as high of an interest to have low health insurance costs (or even higher as company members will urge each other to do so), I don't see how this explains that much.
     
  2. Souron

    Souron The Dark Lord

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    A free market follows certain economic models. Proponents of the free market argue that these models model consumer behavior that leads to a thriving society. These function of these models does not depend on the consumer knowing information about why the price is raised. They do depend on the customer being rational. Being rational amounts to following the model. So if a customer starts basing decisions on why a business raises prices, then he's no longer following the free market ideal, and it may not lead to the promises of a thriving free market economy.

    I do agree that companies should not lie. So having said my piece on why lying doesn't matter much from an economic point of view, I do agree with your conclusion.

    As for whether there is a lie going on here, I respectfully disagree with you, but am not interested in further debating the issue.
     
  3. Oerdin

    Oerdin Deity

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    It explains that on one side we have an inefficient market in that consumers are slow responders to price changes since they're locked in for several years with one provider. Also there is another problem in that the high cost of entry to the health provider market (you have to build huge really expensive hospitals, hire doctors & nurses, buy some very expensive machinery, and you have to do it in multiple cities if you want to make a profit) means there are very few companies getting in to the health care provider business. On top of this there has been a massive consolidation as companies attempt to build economies of scale or just simply put the competition out of business.

    This means in most states there are just three large insurance companies dominated the market with about 10 only having two large insurance companies and two only have one large company. On average we have a triopoly market structure, in about 1/5th of the states we have a duopoly market structure, and in two states we have a monopoly market structure. So not only is their inefficient competition (in that it is very slow to respond to price changes) on the part of most consumers but there is also a very limited competition to supply those consumers. All of this adds up to make the health care market not very price competitive and that's before we even talk about drug companies bribing politicians to increase the patient protection time from 3 years f to 12 years (thus insuring everyone pays higher prices). Yes, we need some profit incentive to encourage drug companies to find new cures but 12 years seems EXTREMELY excessive and designed simply to milk the general public and enrich a few companies who already had literally the highest average ROI of any listed company in the US (and that is even with counting the R&D investment). Once again we're seeing moneyed interests and political corruption screwing over the common people simply because they can.
     
  4. LAnkou

    LAnkou Breizh A Tao

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    i know that something working in most advanced country may not always be the right choice, but:
     

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  5. BasketCase

    BasketCase Username sez it all

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    They already do. And that's considered a bad thing. Insurance companies pushing customers towards cheaper, less-effective treatments to save a buck. Which is probably another reason American health care is so expensive. "Get the absolute best care available, and damn the cost, because it's not me paying for it, it's my insurance company!!"

    Ya ever suppose other countries keep health care costs down by skimping on the quality a little?

    What does that statistic actually tell you? Nothing. The profit is huge because the industry is huge.

    If somebody makes a hundred bucks a week working in a hospital, that sucks. If somebody makes a hundred bucks a week working a lemonade stand, that's awesome. Try this instead: what's the industry's profit margin as a percentage of the total industry....? That will tell you a lot more.

    Of course I am. I would be scared of getting sick no matter how awesome our health care system is. And if there was somewhere in the world where health care was better than in the U.S.? So what?? If I lived there, I would still be equally scared of getting sick. It's easier, less expensive, and less painful to prevent anything from going wrong in the first place. Plus for a few things, such as an aortic dissection, by the time you realize something's gone wrong it can be too late. :eek:
     
  6. LAnkou

    LAnkou Breizh A Tao

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    my question was more in the sense of "if i'm sick, i will have financial problems..."
    Of course, everybody fear the pain and the fact that treatment might be unsuccessfull, but nobody in France is afraid of becoming poor or having financial problem for being sick...

    and you didn't react on my map....I think it's quite straightforward: all developped countries but the US have universal health care. most successfull developping countries want to try universal health care.
     
  7. Torgny

    Torgny Warlord

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    Can you please tell me in what way the quality of health care in UK (costs about half the price compared to USA) that is largely run by governemnt is worse than in USA. Life exectancy is higher in UK compared to USA, infant mortality is lower in UK compared to USA.
     
  8. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    You have to be careful, because at the age of 65, Americans begin to be treated by Medicare (the government program). So, if you're looking at indicators after 65, then you're nervous that you're actually comparing two state-run programs.
     
  9. Torgny

    Torgny Warlord

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    Many people die before they are 65.
     
  10. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    And Medicare doesn't cover everything over 65.
     
  11. Torgny

    Torgny Warlord

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    And people also use private insurance companies after they are 65. I am not really happy with comparing statistic of health care between various nations. The reason I did so was because “BasketCase” assumed that the quality of health care was lower in countries that had national health care.

    I wonder if the problem is that big corporations have told us to think in the following way

    Crude, selfish capitalism = market economy
    Market economy = freedom

    And this takes us to the following conclusion
    Crude, selfish capitalism = freedom

    So if someone questions the power of big corporations, many people see this as an attack against market economy and freedom.
     
  12. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Thanks for the tips about what to watch out for with Medicare.

    Anyway, Medicare is an even bigger damnation of the US health care system. Medicare effectively creates a giant subsidy for insurers, because an insurer can 'foist' an aged client onto Medicare, right? 65+ is when people get really expensive with regards to their healthcare. If the insurer's obligation to a client becomes reduced at 65 yo, then the insurer can give the pre-65 yo a pretty significant discount.

    So, the fact that health insurance is so expensive, even during people's relatively cheap years, shows how bad the entire system is.

    Unless I am wrong, and Medicare does not assume responsibility for some aspects of care at 65, regardless of someone's current policy.
     
  13. Zelig

    Zelig Beep Boop

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    Well, expensive paper-pushers can eat a lot of your profit margin without performing a useful service.
     
  14. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Wait a second, does this say what I think it does?

    The U.S. pays for universal healthcare of Afghanistani and Iraqi citizens, but not their own? :confused:

    edit: re attached image from original post
     
  15. LAnkou

    LAnkou Breizh A Tao

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    i read the same thing...
     
  16. galdre

    galdre Emperor

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    awesome - maybe I can get the US to invade the state of Washington :rolleyes:
     
  17. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    http://www.medicareinteractive.org/page2.php?topic=counselor&page=script&slide_id=215
     
  18. BasketCase

    BasketCase Username sez it all

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    Yeah, I know. Don't care. If I get sick I don't care about the money, I worry about the fact that I'm sick. Point I was driving at: no matter how good your health care plan, it's better to not get sick to begin with. Now put down the Twinkie and have a salad. Preferably light on the dressing and with spinach instead of iceberg lettuce.

    Uhhh....yeah, I didn't react to your map because I don't care about your map. Peer pressure was never my thing, and getting universal health care is not an issue to me (mostly because I examined America's uninsured people and discovered why the majority of them are not insured--once I knew that, I discovered universal health care is unimportant in the U.S.)

    Outdated facilities, longer wait times, complications when you want to see a specialist--oh, and here's a real nasty one for you human-rights buffs out there: foreign nationals get reduced levels of care.

    What does that prove? Could just be a coincidence. You need to prove that longer life expectancy and lower infant mortality are a result of the health care system instead of something else.
    Edit: I, on the other hand, can provide evidence that shorter life and higher infant mortality can be CAUSED by the health care system! American parents have always been paranoid for their kids' health; I've been on the receiving end of that myself. As a result, American children are heavily over-medicated with antibiotics. The result? Kids with weak immune systems and tendencies towards allergies. Also over-medicating can produce drug-resistant diseases. So there ya have it. Ways that a kick-ass health care system can have unintended consequences.
    Oh, did I really....? Can you quote me saying that? No, you can't. How bout you refrain from assuming that I'm assuming something? If I am, I'll say so.

    You didn't answer the question. Do you know what the industry's profit margin as a percentage actually is....?
     
  19. Zelig

    Zelig Beep Boop

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    It's not really relevant to the point you're making, if it happens to be low (say 1%), the people you're arguing against can just claim it's because of all the overhead associated with for-profit insurance companies.
     
  20. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    You know what they could do?

    They could make Medical school not cost a fortune and then you could lower the salary of doctors.
     

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