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Call for leader balance/fun feedback.

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Funak, Dec 23, 2015.

  1. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Really confusing title, but I just couldn't think of anything relevant.
    The idea however was to gather some feedback on which uniques the users find uninspiring. I have my own opinions, but some times they don't perfectly match everyone else's (shock).

    Anyways, the goal here is to list the three uniques of each type (unit, ability, building/wonder/improvement) that you find the least fun/the worst/just lazy, I'm not going to promise that anything said here is going to lead to changes, but the chance exists, so make your voice heard, build a civilization that will stand the test of time.



    Notes:
    1. Reasons behind your choices would be nice, but are not in any way a necessity, however if you don't explain your thoughts, chances are people won't see your side of the story.
    2. The chosen uniques doesn't need to belong to the same civ, uniques aren't balanced in a vacuum, but that's not a reason why some uniques should feel boring.
    3. You don't necessarily need to bring up underpowered uniques, things being too strong or just not fun enough are valid reasons as well.
     
  2. pandasnail

    pandasnail Prince

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    My choices:

    UA: For me personally, its Morocco and The Dutch, because they are at least somewhat forced into peaceful play, which I do not enjoy. I did full game peace with Korea one time and ended up watching basketball and texting from the Industrial Era on instead of playing. But, more broadly, I will say France. Every conquered city both increases unhappiness and warmonger score. Both of those interfere with the ability to win by culture and use Great Works. And there's so few Great Work buildings now if you don't get a religion. And the other half of the UA seems to me like 'spend the entire Ren era building Wonders without getting a bonus to building them.' Been a long time since I tried France, so I forget exactly how much GWs you get. But I feel it would be a lot to make up being only to do it so many times before being hated. Also, on Marathon, at least, I've seen AI France overwhelmed earlyish by AIs literally 5 of 6 recent games. Once by ASSYRIA, the other always-overrun for me side.

    UB: I don't really get the Feitoria, but that's been debated many times, and I have nothing new to add. So I will go Museum of Modern Art. USA doesn't have other culture bonuses, and it comes so late. I would scrap it and go with a regular building. But Gazebo I think has a rule of only one unique per regular building. So the best choice to me probably is Military Academy. Could give culture or it could give unique promotions. Patriotism: Boosts Combat Strength when fighting an unnecessary war in foreign lands in the name of 'protecting freedom' lol. Could actually boost CS when fighting a nation with a different Ideology. If Crusaders if code-able, I'm sure that is too in theory.

    Another choice is unique Heroic Epic. Call it Hollywood War Movie or somesuch. This would be a late game effect on a early building, which probably is silly, but it could significantly reduce War Weariness, representing America's modern state of endless wars of aggression.

    Thematically, USA isn't a culture nation, we're an imperialistic war nation that has used our immense military (and wealth) to force our culture on others. Also, I just want more more more war civs to play as and fight against lol.

    UU: Well, the Pracinha comes super late, and the Jaguar comes super early, I guess that's all fine enough, especially since the Jaguar does keep its promotions on upgrade. So I will go Cossack, which is just so much worse than the Berber Cavalry I feel like. Waiting all game for a unit not that much better than regular Cavalry imo isn't fun. Maybe what makes special is actually that they essentially count for only half a horse? Idk. But they are my pick as not fun in a vacuum for sure.
     
  3. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I guess I'll go first, since no one else seems interested.

    EDIT: Someone beat me to it :D

    ((I'm not going to mention Venice over all, but I still think that entire civ is wrong.))

    UA:

    Treasures of Nineveh - Assyria
    Still not a huge fan of how this UA is handled. Yes it probably isn't my kind of civ, I'll buy that, but the whole thing just feels so old and basic. It was a boring ability in vanilla, and all the improvements to other UAs makes it feel even more lame.

    Monument Builders - Egypt
    After trying Egypt out a few times I've found out that I really don't like this UA. The bonus to wonders is pretty unique, and is probably more powerful than how I feel about it, so I'll just let it go. The part I really dislike however are the free stone works, it is totally random, and way too powerful when it actually works, starting out with 5 yield tiles is just crazy and snowballs way too much.

    Reconquista - Spain
    This UA just feels really underwhelming to me, the benefits of the cities that can be converted are extremely minor. The bonus faith from settling/conquering cities is a nice concept and the free conversion of captured cities saves you an inquisitor per city I guess. All in all I just don't think this is enough.


    UB/UI/UW

    Coffee House - Austria
    This building just feels weird to me, a production based Coffee shop with engineer slots? Weird extra benefits for some Austrian luxuries, coffee tea and tobacco, I understand how they fit into the building, but I don't like giving some civs more final benefits from some luxuries, just feels weird to me.

    Burial Tomb - Egypt
    I was really surprised when I got around to the burial tomb in my first game as Egypt, it just feels so incredibly underwhelming. I mean sure getting some GAP for winning battles is nice, I don't feel like Egypt is that focused on warmongering to make use of it, but sure. However the yield benefit of a Burial Tomb over a caravansary is just +1 faith and +1 production.
    Compare it for example to a Roman Arena, which is available earlier, gives about the same bonus for won battles, is a way more useful base-building compared to a caravansary and gives +2 culture +3 production as well as a +3% gold from city-connections compared to a normal colosseum.

    Bazaar - Arabia
    I don't even know why this building feels so underwhelming, it provides 50% more gold than a normal market. Maybe that's just it, the gold-production of a normal market isn't exactly fantastic, so 50% more than that isn't really much either. The 50% caravan range is nice, but fairly situational.

    Honorable mentions - Tabya, Siege foundry, Royal Library, Ostrog and Wat. There just isn't room to whine about everything :D


    UU

    Jaguar - Aztecs
    This unit isn't even bad, that's the worst part about it, I shudder to ask for a buff for it because of how powerful the promotions it receives are but a warrior unique unit that lasts 1 tech before it is upgraded just doesn't fly in my book. Something needs to be done to maybe make it compare to a Spearman (at least partially) and let it upgrade to a swordsman or a pikeman.

    Atlatlist - Maya
    I don't understand why this unit needs to lose its double attack when upgraded when slingers, chu-ko-nu, hwacha and ship of the line doesn't. It just feels really weird.

    Conquistador - Spain
    I understand that this is meant as a scouting and settling unit, but since I mostly play Pangaea-like maps I can only really judge it as a combat unit, and as a combat unit it really falls short. I understand that there is an idea behind it, but the UA/UB change made Spain into a military civ, and they need a military unique unit.

    Honorable mentions - The pictish warrior is a lot better than the Hoplite and the Immortal, that kinda feels like a poor design. Sure I agree that the pictish warrior needs that power, but maybe the other spears should be brought up to the same level?
     
  4. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I wasn't very clear but I asked for 3 of each :D

    Of course you don't have to choose 3, but you sound like you have a lot to say :D
     
  5. Kolaris

    Kolaris Warlord

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    UAs:
    - Elizabeth (Sun Never Sets)

    This is a very good ability, it just feels all over the place. Clearly she should have Naval bonuses, but why movement? Great Lighthouse + Imperialism + Coal Monopoly + Sun Never Sets is just silly, and not that hard to get either (she seems to have a Coal start bias for her UB?). Why does she get extra Spies? What's the theme there?

    - Genghis Khan (Mongol Terror)

    If I want to play a Cavalry-oriented Warmonger, the Huns seem like a much stronger and more interesting choice. I don't use mounted ranged units very much in CBP. The City-State bonus is odd. If the City-State is strong, I can't forceably annex it. If it isn't strong, I could just conquer it.

    - Isabella (Reconquista)

    I admit that I loved vanilla Spain, though I can understand the problematic nature of her hit-or-miss ability. The new one is very frustrating to play against, and not very helpful to me playing her either. The issue is getting a Religion, once I have one I rarely have any problem spreading it as any Civ. See the issue with the Celts.

    UUs:
    In general my chief consideration for whether a UU is strong and interesting is if it gets a promotion that it couldn't get on its own. Jaguars, Hoplites, Immortals, Minutemen, Musketeers, Mandelakus etc affect their entire unit lines for the rest of the game.

    - Cataphract (Byzantium)
    Its advantages are either slight (25% vs 33% city damage) or temporary (20 vs 15 CS). It also has a downside (-1 movement) which is unusual for a Unique Unit. While it's certainly king in its narrow window, I feel it's very important for early game units to pass on promotions, since you won't be able to take advantage of them in every game if your starting position doesn't allow it.

    - Hussar (Austria)
    Late unit, weak promotion (+1 Sight), and +50% Flank Damage is smaller than it seems (+7.5% CS per adjacent allied unit). Only 2 more CS than Cavalry (42 vs 40).

    - Merchant of Venice (Venice)
    I feel this should be a part of their UA. It's necessary in order for it to work, it doesn't need to take their UU slot as well.

    I don't have strong opinions on UBs. I never say to myself "this isn't useful". Clearly some are more useful than others, but I'll have to give that more thought.
     
  6. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I agree with this, was considering adding her to my list. A naval power is a cool thing, but there are so many other things that could have been done instead.
    The east india company or the virginia company or anything else really.
    I don't think 'coal start bias' is a thing by the way.

    I'm not a fan of any UU without upgrade potential, to be honest, and there are quite a few of them.
     
  7. pandasnail

    pandasnail Prince

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    Sorry! You were perfectly clear, I just somehow straight missed the word 'three.' So two more for each:

    UA: Honorable Mention to Assyria. I actually like it and think it is fun to play as, but the AI does often lose with them for me. And facing nonthreats is not fun. Maybe the science boost in their UA is one of the things that didn't use to scale with game speed and now does? Idk. It may not be the best, most balanced UA but I do think there's a fun thrill in the 'boom I got your tech' effect.

    Siam: I believe every other civ with City State bonuses also gets a bonus to getting them as well. Germany gets the Hanze/Merchant Confederacy policy combo. Greece gets the influence degrade stuff. And Austria gets to lock in allies. Even Portugal gets extra gold to buy diplomats from all three uniques. And I feel like Siam's CS bonuses don't quite make up for it, unless lucky enough to get early game Faith, where it becomes immensely powerful.

    From a certain point of view, The Celts getting a free early (likely first) religion is unfun. But I'm of Welsh descent and will not truly make an argument against them :D. So my pick three will be Japan. Preserving leveled up units is the name of the game in war for me, so I don't enjoy the Kamikaze effect, to say nothing about the Racial Stereotype part. And there just aren't that many atolls and even fishing boats for 2 culture per to feel like a lot to me. With that said, Japan is a fun side to fight against, especially once they get Samurais and Dojos.

    UB: Siege Foundry. I don't use catapults, and by trebs I can basically buy all the siege units I want (considering iron limits), and keep cities on buildings. I'm not gonna change that for a small bonus to production. The free promotion is nice, but it isn't an overwhelming advantage.

    I've only ever played Tabyas on a River Spaghetti map and didn't feel it was extra OP then, so maybe I should pick it. But I have literally no exp playing (or facing) Songhai without the spaghetti, so I don't feel qualified saying. (for some reason shuffle seemed to give me the spaghetti before the rest of yall got it on your map choices. idk) Instead, I will pick Kunas. Doesn't come early enough to truly help with getting a religion, so the faith barely matters for a long time. The science is nice, but the science from growth from farm chains is nice too. I'd bring back the shrine unique building or move Kunas earlier, somewhere on column 1. I realize construction can be rushed, but I'm unlikely to want to do that otherwise. And it isn't even on the path to Math, the vital tech for the Mayan UA.

    UU: Gonna agree with Funak on the Conquistador. Improved city attack matters a lot for me on a Horseman vs a Cataphract. I disagree with Kolaris, I think Cataphracts are a top five (Marathon speed) unit. But by the time Knights come around I handle that with siege. I guess the idea is to just not build siege as Spain maybe. But I feel like for that to work Conquis would need to actually get a bonus to attacking cities, not merely the lack of a penalty. Key enemy cities are gonna have Castles at this point mostly. Like Funak said, the exploration and settling parts are nifty flavor and thematic, but don't truly help that much imo. Shuffle map does like to make these 12x12 snow tundra islands with tons of oil. Literally every nonpangaea Shuffle map has this weird feature. So I do kinda have a use for the settling in my games, but its not like colonists are that expensive. Can't remember, what buildings does a Conqui city come with? Any? I like the Spain UA tho. AI gets a religion 90% with them, and even tho I wouldn't nearly hit that, I like having 'AI civs.' I'd just like it more if an army of Conquis put some fear in me the way Mand Cavalry does.

    Hoplite. Not that much stronger than spearman, and don't come earlier. I don't value GGs that much, maybe that's a mistake for me. I try to control my number of fronts such that I only need maybe two GGs. And the only citadeling for me is SRs mainly. That's likely what I'm doing wrong. But the Picts have a better promotion (early faith), move on hills, and come earlier. Even the Immortal can be shuffled in and out of combat rapidly. Can't remember their exact number but a point or two of extra CS doesn't balance that I feel. All that said, Greece gets many City State allies from their UA and I like the UB, so I'm not sure they need an overall improvement.
     
  8. Kolaris

    Kolaris Warlord

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    The wording in the CBP description is somewhat misleading. The best part of the UA is still the vanilla "fight at full strength even when wounded". So you don't need to keep your units at low health (it's only a 10% bonus at 1% health), but rather your wounded units are much harder to kill off.
     
  9. pandasnail

    pandasnail Prince

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    Hmm. That is better than I thought, yeah. Might agree with you on Mongolia on choice three then. There was a glorious time where they got combat bonuses to all mounted units and were amazing. It's hard for me to separate my feelings on the current UA from that one, and from my love of the Ger. But taken objectively, is amazing Mounted Bowmen (and they are elite imo) worth half a UA? And the city state thing? Unless it has a natural wonder or vital location, I'm unlikely to want an extra puppet all that badly. Maybe they could come annexed or be impossible to liberate.
     
  10. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    Hoplites are much weaker than other Spearman UU. They can create GG faster. Immortals have faster Healing. Pictish Warriors which move faster and +25% Defense on Hills.

    Caroleans only get March. Impis have a bonus vs Mounted Units, the Spear Throws, and Ikanda Promotions. Janis have +25% Attack and +50 HP when defeating Units (non-Barbs). The Musketeer has more attack, +1 Movement, and can Ignore enemy Zones of Control. Minuteman can move through Rough Terrain better and Drill I. They also earn points towards a Golden Age when it defeats an enemy.
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Japanese units actually get stronger (above base CS) as they are injured. Not just full strength, but moreso.

    G
     
  12. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Pictish gets 25% CS on hills snow and tundra, both on attack and defense, along with double movement (better than ignore) on those tiles. They also pillage without movement cost and gets 200% of slayed units CS as Faith. It is also available at mining instead of bronzeworking.
    Hoplites gets faster great generals
    Immortals have lower CS and heals faster.

    I'd say they both needs a bump.

    The Caroleans, the Musketeer and the Impis have 28 CS compared to 24 of the other muskets.
    The Carolean promotion (march) is one of the absolute strongest promotion in the game, especially since you can spend all your promotions on medic instead of getting your drill/shock up to 3.
    Musketeers have an extra movement point, ignore ZoC and get a 15% CS bonus when attacking.

    I think the actual important comparison is between the Janissary and the Minuteman, since they are the only ones on 24 CS. And in that comparison the Minuteman comes out ahead with its superior mobility. The Janissary +25% CS when attacking is nice, but it doesn't help when defending or when attacking cities, they're pretty much a normal musket-man at that point.

    Note that I'm not trying to say that the Janissary needs a buff, I'm not trying to show that it is the weakest musket.


    Also this is going really off-topic, general unit-balance should probably be discussed elsewhere.
     
  13. pandasnail

    pandasnail Prince

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    Well, I still had it wrong tho. I was thinking the idea was to attack with nearly dead units, but seems like it is really to attack with medium health units that can then survive through the AI turn easier. Put that way I think it is way more fun sounding.
     
  14. Gangrin

    Gangrin Warlord

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    Nah, Bushido sounds more awesome than it's actually is. With half your HP you get a +5% bonus. 5%. Compare this with Gustav's +15% from the get-go. Or Alexander's +20%. Or Persian +25% during GA. Bushido is a joke, really
     
  15. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I don't think you understand how combat in civ5 works. The more wounded a unit is, the less damage it does, I think it's around 25% less damage at half hp, meaning if a swedish and a japanese unit at 50hp attack the same target the japanese unit would deal around 20% more damage.
    The Japanese UA is deceptively powerful, even more so in CPP where melee-units are bulky enough to survive hits. Combined with their unique promotions from the Dojo and the Dominance policy, Japanese counterattacks can destroy you.
     
  16. Kolaris

    Kolaris Warlord

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    Yep. Half of your health lost is subtracted from your damage. I too was underwhelmed by the +2-10% bonus you see from Bushido, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. It's very powerful.
     
  17. Gangrin

    Gangrin Warlord

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    I understand how combat works perfectly fine, thank you. I just want to emphasize this:
    Japan starts to gain it's bonuses in combat only when their armies are damaged and making continuous use of this ability more and more risky. Gustav, Alexander and Darius do not have this problem: they have very powerful combat bonuses from the start, guaranteeing local victory in the opening phases of war and they don't have to gamble to gain this advantage. And moreover, let's make a little math and if i am mistaken somewhere, correct me.
    All four contenders will attack the same target with the same units 3 times: one attack on 100% hp, one at 75%, one at 50%. After attacking with 50% hp unit even Japan most likely will withdraw it. So:
    [J]apan, weden, [G]reece, [P]ersia, 100% hp:
    J=100% S=115% G=120% P= 125% of base damage

    75% hp
    J= 100x(1+0.025)=102.5% S=115*0.875=100.625% G=120*0.875=105% P=125*0.875=109.375%

    50% hp
    J= 100x(1+0.05)=105% S=115*0.75= 86.25% G=120*0.75=90% P = 125*0.75=93.75%

    In total:
    J=100+102.5+105=307.5 %
    S=115+100.625+86.25=301.875 %
    G=120+105+90=315%
    P= 125+109.375+93.75=328.125 %

    So, after three attacks Japan scores victory only over Sweden by margin of 6%. Greece and Persia deal more damage still by 7% and by whooping 21% respectively. So even with risky 50% hp attacks Japan is not #1. So again, i stand by the notion that Bushido is not that strong
     
  18. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    The Japanese ability works when defending as well and it works for all units, not only melee ones. Also low hp normally doesn't stop me from getting hits in if I'm playing authority (or using any unit that heals on kill).

    Also even if Bushido looks weaker in theory anyone who have played against an AI Japan in war knows that it is way annoying in practice. The Swedish bonus pretty much equates to one promotion while a unit with bushido is a monster.
     
  19. Gangrin

    Gangrin Warlord

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    Alexander and Darius have their bonuses granted to all units and to the defense as well. And from my experience, Oda never posed as serious and annoying threat as Alexander or Shaka. Yes, he is more dangerous than Ashur or Catherine, but a "monster"? Nah
     
  20. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Darius requires golden age to activate his bonus, they aren't exactly permanent, at least not earlier on. The Alexander bonus requires 5 city-state allies, which is not exactly hard to get, but it is something. I'm not really sold on the Alexander thing myself, but I haven't seen people complaining about it.

    Also yes, Japanese units are monsters.
     

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