Call me completely crazy BUT: I think I nailed Celts as viable Civ

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Pavel Chichikov, Apr 23, 2014.

  1. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    It's likely that my own cultural biases make me see civilizations in terms of contiguous history, like China, Persia or Japan.
    But it's one I've stood by because the game series (talking about unmodded Civ) itself seems to encourage that contiguous view of history.
    With the one big anachronism being starting a game with the "American civilization" from the Ancient Era, which if you stretch it,
    based on the commonly stressed civilizations kids in America learn about, would mean you'd be playing Greeks & Romans in the "Ancient & Classical Eras",
    England in the "Medieval Era" who all of a sudden become "Americans" in the Industrial Era.
    All while entertaining the ludo-narrative dissonance that the Greeks named their capital "Washington".
    When you see Italian sword-and-sandal flicks, or the long list of British and American productions about Greece and Rome.
    Even look at things like Harry Potter, where a significant chunk of wizards bear names like "Hermione", "Cornelius", "Lucius", "Scamander".
    The message is kind of clear: "We came from this."

    You could argue that "Well, of course they would draw from those things and names, America doesn't have an ancient history to speak of,
    and nobody in England likes or even knows those pre-Roman names, the only written sources we have are Roman anyway!"

    It's hard to make that contiguous approach in Europe admittedly because there's tons of overlap,
    which is why we have things like "English", "French" & "German" civilizations instead of "Germanic" civilization.
    England would be a nightmare for that kind of system, it'd be a Frankenstein four-way of Celtic, Germanic, Nordic & Greco-Roman civilization.
    But as we see with the Vikings, it's possible to do that with some European civilizations.
    And also by modern parlance when we refer to the big lump known as "the West", almost as if they all share similar values and ethno-cultural heritage, almost... like a civilization*.

    The only time I'd support your position is in cases like the "Native American civilization" which is just intellectually dishonest
    because they don't all share from the same pool of traditions unlike other incredibly obvious groupings of people (Slavic, Turkic, etc)
    and also that there are fewer points in time that you can use to draft a contiguous history and that there's a significantly larger
    amount of difference between say, the Sioux and the Iroquois than the Spanish and the Portuguese.

    Granted, the game wouldn't be fun if it were like that.
    I feel the base game took a great middle ground and that for the most part, DoC has followed in that same path,
    with a tight core of "civilizations" and "nations", as opposed to other mods that add civs that aren't even civs,
    like "Iraq" or the-sin-that-shall-not-be-named (Venice) in Civ5.
    I feel like the Celts could fit the same niche as the Vikings, instead of being separated into a modern Ireland civ and an ancient La Tène civ.
    Defining a difference for them between the ages feels extraneous to me and the suggestions for the UU/UB don't feel weird to me, but it's probably because I'm viewing the overall history of the Celts in a line.

    *Hell, if it's not a civilization of its own, why are there so many different "Western Civ" classes?
    Also, not to give Huntington too much credit, since he's pretty damn off-base when it comes to some of his groupings.
     
  2. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    I agree that starting with La Tene or Hallstatt Celts is a bit early and leads to problems with the expansion of the civilization. I'd prefer to think in terms historical episodes that would be fun to play as and beneficial to have represented in the game.

    To me, that is the Gauls (and maybe Britons) for the classical era and the insular Celts (especially Ireland) in the medieval era. The former could have goals related to resisting the Romans and developing their culture (tech, city culture ...) and the latter something related to Christianity, maybe missionaries.

    I think we can safely shave off their Celtiberian, Pannonian or Galatian branches.
     
  3. reposado

    reposado Chieftain

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    agreed. insisting we start with la tene would be like insisting the mongols are born centuries earlier and roam pastorally for dozens of terms before getting to the interesting part of the game
     
  4. brett0007

    brett0007 Warlord

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    One neglected aspect of early medieval Celtic culture that could make an interesting uhv Is the dark age colonies and the papars. Apart from Brittany there was a British/Gealic settlement in north Spain that was the seat of a bishop in the 6th century called Bretoña and there was the later Papars who set up monasteries in Iceland before even the Norse had arrived.


    A possible 3rd uhv could be

    Colonize Brittany Galicia and Iceland and build monasteries by 700 AD
     
  5. Publicola

    Publicola King

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    Having a Celtic colony in Iceland would make the Viking UHV even more historical, in making them expand by conquest rather than by settling across the British Isles and Ireland.


    The reason I proposed starting at Halstatt or La Tene would be to give the Celts enough time to expand and develop their territory before the Romans arrive on the scene. That's why I included Northern Italy in the first UHV, to give the Celts reason to build and defend that city per their historical interests (which is not at all reflected in the current set-up, where Rome flips Mediolanum by default at spawn).

    If we're going to give them a later start, it may not be possible for the Celts to settle and defend such a city. So here's some possible UHV conditions:

    UHV 1: control a city within the Roman core in (200?) BC

    UHV 2: make a city in Ireland your capital and develop it with (1000?) culture by (1 AD?) -- I'm drawing a blank on how to improve the phrasing, or what the specific targets for date and for culture level should be.

    UHV 3: build Christian monasteries in your cities in Iceland, Ireland, Wales, and Scotland by 600 AD -- I kinda liked the previous cathedral goal since 600 AD is when the Canterbury Cathedral was built and it gives the Celts a reason to push their tech level forward. OTOH, this alt-UHV combines both territorial expansion and religious expansion.
     
  6. IrishDragon

    IrishDragon Legend

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    I posted this on another thread in relation to UHVs for the Celts

     
  7. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Gallia Cisalpina and Narbonensis are currently in the Roman flip zone, if the Celts are included in a more Gaulish incarnation I would be willing to exclude them again though.

    1) I like it.

    2) Have a city with Refined culture in Ireland by 1 AD?

    3) Irish monastic culture is probably the best thing to focus on. Getting Music on time to finish the Cathedral by 600 AD is very tough.
     
  8. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    That's completely untrue though. Both the spiritual (Xiongnu) and ethnic (Xianbei) predecessors to the Mongols were extremely important in their region to the point that
    the largest efforts in Chinese foreign policy were devoted solely on them.
    There have been important episodes in their history like the formation of the Xiongnu Confederacy which demonstrated the power of the nomads when they were united
    and the Xianbei have been known to start a few Chinese dynasties themselves.

    I like the one about fighting Rome, but I think part of it could be devoted to Greece as well.
    There's some important episodes in Greek-Celtic relations, like Soter's war against the Galatians, highlighted by things like the original Dying Galatian and the founding of Massalia.
    It'd also be impossible not to have some kind of meaningful interaction if this is taken into account:

     
  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Oh cool map, thanks for posting that here.

    I think such a Celtic goal could conceivably work similar to the current first Viking goal, leaving the option open to go against Greece or even Carthage if you want to.
     
  10. Publicola

    Publicola King

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    Tomorrow's Dawn: The problem is that the Greek UHV basically ignores the Greek colonial effort in the Black Sea and western Mediterranean (Sicily and southern France). It'd be easier to tie any Celtic UHV to the Greeks if there were some guarantee that Massalia would be settled by Greece, but barring that, tying the Celts to Greece would require a much earlier spawn and an expansion UHV that sends them east as well as west. I agree with Leoreth and the others, that the western side is much more interesting and where more of the action and historical impact happens.

    Leoreth: Great! Sounds like the revised 1st and 3rd UHV work pretty well. My concern in adding the Palace requirement would be making sure the Celts won't collapse -- they'll be dealing with both Roman Empire and with the Germanic invasion. I'm not familiar with the mechanics, but the Phoenician example proves it's possible to switch the core after a palace is constructed.

    Perhaps the UHV could be revised to separate the "refined culture" and the "Irish capital" components?

    UHV 2: Have your capital and a city with refined culture in Ireland by 1 AD​

    This would trigger the core to switch to the Insular Celt lands, and hopefully minimize instability when/if the Celts lose ground to Rome and the Germans.

    Leoreth, what did you think of the "10% unit production per forest" idea? I thought that'd be an effective way of avoiding excessive chopping while still allowing the Celts to produce the settlers and soldiers they'd need to meet their early UHV. I was torn between making that their UHV or incorporating it into their Unique Building. At the moment I kinda prefer swapping their effects:

    Unique Power: +10% unit production per forest beside a city
    Unique Building: Ceilidh (replaces Monument, gives extra culture and free Woodsman I promotion)
     
  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Sure, their core could relocate on any arbitrary condition, but capital is probably best. The AI will need help as per the usual.

    10% unit production per forest is an interesting idea. You're right that chopping is problem: we want them to keep the forests around. This is something that is best tried out in the game itself.

    (I'm just now realizing that adding in the Celts won't even cost another slot ...)
     
  12. reposado

    reposado Chieftain

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    that's the exact point. things happened, but we don't need to play that part
     
  13. brett0007

    brett0007 Warlord

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    Why not make it a bit more generic, have a capital in Britain with refined culture? That gives the player more options to say have a Scottish/Welsh or even Cornish capital?

    disclaimer:I have no idea what is considered OP/UP I'm just floating possible ideas

    Some UP ideas:
    They can build improvements without chopping forests(they still can, you just have to order workers to do it explicitly)
    +1 :) +1:hammers: for every forest in range as long you run pantheon


    And lastly a few UU ideas:
    Saethwyr(replaces longbow) 6:strength: +1 first strike +50% hill +25% forests
    The Welsh practically perfected longbow warfare so much so that the English took heavy losses whilst invading Wales and even copied them to great effect.

    Shiltron(replaces pikemen) 6:strength: +100% mounted +25% vs melee
    The Scottish pikemen were integral parts of the medieval scottish army and won them numerous battles like bannockburn and stirling bridge.

    Gallowglass(replaces heavy swordsman)8:strength: +75% vs melee?
    A fusion of both Norse and Irish warfare Gallowglasses, fought with Axes and Claymores and were renowned across europe for their quality as mercenaries.

    or just stick with gallic warriors.
     
  14. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    I agree it might be a little too short lived.
    I probably could have worded it better, but having a Halstatt/La Tene starting region with Historical areas available both East and West would make the AI come at a crossroads against the Greeks.
    The player, understandably, would prepare for the exodus West. Personally, I like the idea where unchopped Forests give you benefits though.
    From a developmental standpoint though, it starts to make less sense once we enter the Medieval Era,
    which is when it ought to expire and maybe be replaced by a different benefit (in my mind, this benefit would have something to do with religion).

    Something like a free Cathedral effect in all cities that only have one religion that also happens to be your state religion. Perhaps toned down into Theatre or the old Creative trait.

    Being able to play Ancient Celts and carry them into the Modern Era would be incredibly fun. The fact that we're already discussing UPs that grant extra production with unchopped Forests kind of drives my point more.
    And I don't know about your playstyle, but I sure wouldn't be content to roam for "dozens of terms" as proto-Mongols, I'd actually probably use it to conquer Asia.
    And there's plenty to do with ancient Celts in regards to their neighbors as well like tech trading, vassalization and outright conquest.
     
  15. Publicola

    Publicola King

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    That'd be fine, though I am concerned that requiring that the same city both have refined culture and build a palace would take too long to finish the UHV in time. Still:

    UHV 2: Have a capital and a city with refined culture in the British Isles by 1 AD​

    I like all of these, though the worry is that they'd all come too late to have any impact on the game. The benefit of a Gallic Warrior is that it comes earlier enough to affect the Celtic struggle with the Roman Empire. (The cons of that UU is that the bonus to fighting on hills is a pretty weak specialization).

    Of the three you suggested, my favorite is probably the Saethwyr, especially because (as you say) it preceded and inspired the English longbowmen. That being the case, there is historical justification for making it available by an earlier tech prerequisite. Perhaps weaken the base strength to allow the Roman Legions to remain a real threat as well? Since the UB would give a Woodsman (forest defense) promotion, I'd suggest giving the UU a Drill promotion, related to the longbow's greater range and armor piercing abilities.

    Celtic UU: Saethwyr (replaces longbowman, available at ______, 6 strength, free Drill I promotion)
    Finally, for the Celtic UB, I wasn't sure if there'd be an issue with making a model of a Ceilidh, but another option would be reverting to the original Celtic Dun, with the same effects as I proposed for the Ceilidh:

    Celtic UB: Dun (replaces Walls, extra culture and free Woodsman I promotion)​
     
  16. brett0007

    brett0007 Warlord

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    Perhaps a some form of forge to represent the Celts prowess in both military and artistic metallurgy?

    _______,replaces Forge +10% unit production with copper/iron and +1 culture for every gold/silver and gems resource? gives slots for 1 artist and engineer?
     
  17. need my speed

    need my speed Rex Omnium Imperarium

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    Couldn't these Celts very easily become Ireland (and / or Scotland), and thus, last throughout the whole game (provided England doesn't conquer them - this would be a fun and unique-ish challenge, in that you'd probably need diplomacy to help you out)? Either the Celts stay in Europe, where Rome, France, Austria, and who knows whom else, would all try to flip Celtic cities and / or start at war with them, or they relocate to Ireland.
     
  18. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    I would expect them to naturally expand to Ireland on their own. That will simply be all that remains of them after the medieval spawns as per the standard flip mechanics.
     
  19. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    Yes, Celts should definitely become Irish later on, and maybe respawn as Irish in the early 20th century if they are conquered.
     
  20. Big Heb

    Big Heb Warlord

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    Some ideas for Celtia as a bronze to iron age bridge, and a classical to medieval bridge:

    Capital Spawn: Hallstatt (current location of Vienna in 600 AD scenario)
    Core: Pannonia, Gaul
    Historical: Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Illyria, Insubria
    Contested: England, Galicia

    Spawn Date: Before Rome, After Greece, spawn at war with Greece
    Units Spawned: Gallic Warriors x3, Workers x2
    Cities Built on Spawn: Singidun (location of Singidunum in 600 AD scenario), Melpum
    Cities Spawned/Settled Later: Burdigala, Lutetia, Lugdunum

    This is an inbetween solution. The focus is obviously on Gaul, but you already start with the other Celtic branches in place. Much like there is little purpose to Phoenicia before the founding of Carthage in game except to establish historical continuity, pre-Roman Celtia would exist basically to gear up for the Roman onslaught and set up Europe so it isn't as empty as it usually is in 3000 BC games without forcing Rome to hypersettle and collapse.

    When Rome spawns, Melpum is no longer in the flip zone, but Rome starts at war with Celtia and has more Legions to be able to conquer it. After Melpum (or any one other Celtic city) is conquered by Rome, the core of Celtia shifts. Or if human player, core shifts when first British Isles city is founded:

    Capital Spawn: Áth Cliath (not spawned if human)
    Core: Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall
    Historical: Brittany
    Contested: Gaul, England, Pannonia, Galicia, New England, Nova Scotia

    If Rome conquers Hallstat, it gets renamed to Vindobona. Else, if it's never conquered and is destroyed by Germanic barbarians, it will respawn as an indy as currently configured, along with Aquincum. The game for Celtia then becomes holding onto the continental possessions in Gaul and elsewhere from the Romans and Germanic barbs while prepping for resettlement in the British Isles. Then, once in the British Isles, the goal would be to resist Viking and English/Norman invasion and build up Gaelic culture. Perhaps one UHV could be an alternate history for reconquest and maintained possession of Scotland, England, and Brittany.
     

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