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Calling all economists: How to create a fun/simple/realistic world market economy?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Creation & Customization' started by Padmewan, May 24, 2006.

  1. chef pablo

    chef pablo Warlord

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    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154418could this be used for this
    there is also somebody working on some other stuff we could possibly use .the lopez has a slew of stuff that might be reworked for our purposes as well.http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169009
     
  2. scottland

    scottland Chieftain

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    Chef, I'm impressed by your knowledge of the posts in this forum - you must spend a lot of time here. As far as military unit production is concerned, the Lopez has some good ideas, but I want to completely redesign the production system, so that military units can be created concurrently with buildings. My ideas aren't fully fleshed-out yet, but I envisage having Industries, including farming, mining and construction (amongst many others, which I am open to suggestions). The construction industry is responsible for building city improvements. You can have as many buildings being constructed as you want, but each will have to share the labour force of the industry, leading to slower completion. The military would be completely different. Once you have a blacksmith industry (only available upon the discovery of bronze working) that is making weapons, you can equiping soldiers (another population type) with those weapons. If you have a barracks, those soldiers can be trained for XP, otherwise they're green units. This can mean quick mobilization provided you have weapons stockpiled and you can conscript soldiers (convert between farmers/labourers and soldiers). We might have to adjust the XP bonus for trained units, because conscripts would be much less effective units.

    I'm also thinking about changing research (there's not much I am happy with, eh). I want civilizations with peaceful, growth-based progress to develop peaceful, growth-based technologies, whereas aggressive civilizations will get military techs first. I don't want these to be based on leader-traits, they should be about what a civ actually does. If your at war, you're more likely to research good weapon advancements, not Drama. I think that having lots of farmers should give you research points towards certain types of techs, and having soldiers, points towards completely different sorts of techs. Just browsing through the list of techs in Civ4, I'm not sure if it can be done, I'd definitely need some help with that.
     
  3. scottland

    scottland Chieftain

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    And what if great people gave you the ability to build a particular wonder; instead of having six civs all rushing to complete the Pyramids, only the one that had a great engineer born soon after masonry was discover, could build them.
     
  4. chef pablo

    chef pablo Warlord

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    [QUOTEChef, I'm impressed by your knowledge of the posts in this forum - you must spend a lot of time here.][/QUOTE]
    its the slow season ,what can i say.Thats soon to change though

    nice to finally have someone that falls in line with how i think,and that has time to code,remember how i said my hats off to you,well scratch that your a god!

    Any way im going to dig up some quotes and links to the posts that they are on so if you like them you can look them up

    this is a very interesting string lots of of deas herehttp://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=96081

    one of my posts
    .

    there was a bunch of squabling then i posted this:
    and heres the link to hte whole posthttp://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169692
    same idea different post:

    more same post:
    and heres the link,
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=85496&page=2
    this post died on the vine,but i thought it warrented a look see
    if you get time you can look at this
    http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/index.html
    this one got nowhere
    you can check out this whole string
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169586
    I think thats enough reserch stuff,ill anser your post next one down.
     
  5. chef pablo

    chef pablo Warlord

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    its sounds like we both want to take this monster ,strap it to the table take it apart to the brain and spinalcord and put it back together.sooo,
    1production i think we got a sence of what we both want there at least there is a dialog there.
    2trade yeh got that one
    3commerce weve started but i dont think we ever discussed what to do with it
    4science what do you think about getting rid of the sliding bar altogether ,strictly a population set up.since hopefully our cities are going to be geared to one type of production or the other than maybee we could have multiple tech trees,any scientist working in a city reserches the prevailing production for that city.example would be a city thats going all out on refining and producing food stuffs would reserch growth techs.

    since your doing so much i feel compeled to give you this recipe,great for a date at the house.
    Pho ga(vietnamese chicken noodle)
    1 whole chicken
    1onion
    2 bay leaves
    small hand full peppercorn
    2 anis star
    2clove garlic
    1pack pad thai rice noodle(find in asian market)
    1/2 fresh fine julianed cucumber
    1/2 fresh fine julianed carrot
    1/2 fine julianed red onion
    1/2 cup choped cilantro
    chopped green onion
    1lime cut into wedges
    1 bottle of sriracha chili sauce(also in asian market)
    chicken,onion,bay,anis star,peppercorn,garlic in a stock pot or dutch oven with enough water to cover,bring up to a boil and then turn down to simmer cook for about one -one 1/2 hour till meat falls off bone.
    strain make sure you resurve the liquide place chicken on a plate to cool and toss the rest put liquid back into pot,when chicken is cool enough to handle pick the meat and set aside,toss the fat and bones.
    bring stock back up to boil ,season with salt to taste.
    add rice noodles cook till aldente,dont cremate them
    now for assembly:
    in a good deep soup bowl,some pulled chicken ,cooked rice noodles,pinch of cucumber,pinch of carrot,pinch of cilantro,pinch of red onion ,pinch of green onion,to taste a couple of drops of siriracha chili sauce,squeeze lime wedge ,ladle over this the hot stock till bowl is half full
    pair of chop sticks and your stylin,enjoy
     
  6. scottland

    scottland Chieftain

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    Military supply is something I'd like change too, but I fear I've already bitten off more than I can chew. If I ever get through this socio-economic mod, this will be pretty high up on my list.

    Getting rid of settlers has some appeal to me, but I think that they should be still available for most government types. You are right that many cities have been founded by people independant of control by their government, but also many cities (throughout the ages) have been deliberately and purposefully founded by states - e.g. Roman outposts in England, Spain and North Africa, European colonization of Africa, Americas and Oceania, Jewish settlements in Palestine.

    Basically I see commerce as giving your population money, which you take some of in tax, which you can spend on military, education, civics, bureaucracy (sp?), etc. Obviously something that needs to be tested to work out the best formula for this.

    As far as science goes, I don't want to redesign the tech tree, but if someone else wants to with my mod in mind, I'll happily incorporate it. I think I mentioned in one of my first posts that science would only be generated by scientists. I like the idea of specialized research, but it may require a lot of messing with the XML.

    I don't know what a Dutch oven is in the US, but here it's means when someone farts under the bed sheet when another person has their head under there.
    I'd rather not eat chicken prepared like that.
    The anis star sounds a bit messy also.
    Other than that, sounds good!
     
  7. chef pablo

    chef pablo Warlord

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    perhaps its time to create a new string,anounce a new mod being put together and ask for help.we would need to collect our ideas thus far ,make a proposal of ideas immediatly being worked on and future ideas.nedd to give it a name as well,i vote for the big stew(so much is going tobe reworked and intigrated)could also call it civ deconstructed or the great deconstruction.
    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
    thats frikin hilariouse,a dutch oven is half the hight of a stock and a little wider,star anis you can get at an asian market.
     
  8. Armed_Maniac

    Armed_Maniac Soldati

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    Well, a little comment that may have been said before, but if oil wells generate X ammount of oil units per Y turns, X should depend on the size of the map, the biggest maps providing the least oil, since they have more wells, and on the other side, a single oil well for a tiny map can easely represent many on a bigger map.
     
  9. chef pablo

    chef pablo Warlord

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    scottland check your in box
     
  10. scottland

    scottland Chieftain

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    Bigger maps will need more oil, because there will be more cities, more units and more people. The current system adjusts the number of bonus resources for different map sizes, so if they all produce (roughly) the same amount of oil, game balance will be preserved.
     
  11. The Dopelganger

    The Dopelganger Chieftain

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    WOW!! this is awsome! you guys are realy going all out on this. I have an idea that might work with your mod about science. What drives me nuts is that back in the time of the Romans, inventions such as the steam engine and electricity were around, just not in use (or at least powerful enough to be sinificant). What I'd like to see is a network of Techs that as soon as the tech is logicly available, you should be able to research it. That's kind of what we're talking about on my thread and was wondering what you guys might think about it (chef pablo's already seen it).

    well... my address bar has disapeared and I can't get it back... sooo mabey chef pablo can get it to you.
     
  12. chef pablo

    chef pablo Warlord

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    .
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=173435
    would be nice to be asked,
    course this means from now on im going to ask my cooks"hey go get me the stinky bedsheets"
     
  13. scottland

    scottland Chieftain

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    Not quite sure what you're proposing Dopelganger, do you want a tech tree with lots of shortcuts? I think that would lead to exploitation by the player because they would go for the most advanced techs as soon as possible. What I (eventually) want to do with the tech tree is substantially reduce the control over what is researched by your civ - hence reducing the exploits of weakness in the tech tree (meaning we can add techs that are completely useless, because they will be researched anyway). There could be a two-stage research process - first your scientists discover the concept of steam power, for example, and then your engineers (with enough funding, and free time) work out how to make it useful.
     
  14. Jeckel

    Jeckel Great Reverend

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    There are alot of cool ideas in this thread and many others on this topic, but if you want to get somthing coded your going to have to take a step back from the grand brainstorming and get down to brass tacks. As Chef Pablo said a few posts back, you need to gather together your basic, specific, ideas and put together a proposal and post it in a new thread. Until that point, I don't think your going to get any coders wanting to take on the task.

    That said, I must say that I am, and have been, very intriqued by the ideas posted in this thread and would like to offer my advise on a few things.

    The "economic mod" that has developed so far is way to complex and interwoven. It needs to be broken down in several individual, standalone mod components. Lets start with the first and most neccecary one...

    Economic Mod Component #1
    Name: Quanified Resourses Mod
    Idea: Resourses are no longer infinite, but instead have a set quanity when created and are depleted as they are worked.
    Implimentation:
    When a game is started resourses are given a set amount. Every turn that a resourse is worked an amount is removed from the resourse, most likely based on the number of hammers gotten from the square. When a resourse has all of its supply depleted the resourse will vanish from the map.
    Each turn that the resourse is worked a portion or the resourse worked will be added to the city's supply pool for that resourse.
    In-Game Effect:
    Not much ingame effect other then the removing of depleted resourses, all the rest is just data being stored behind the scenes.


    Economic Mod Component #2
    Name: Quantified Unit Bonus PreReq
    Idea: Instead of a unit just needing iron, it needs X iron.
    Implimentation:
    Useing the resourse supply pool from ModComp #1 you can control the building of units. The hard part is deciding how much each unit needs of a given resourse.
    There is always the option of new XML tags through use of sdk, but imo this should be a last resort. There will always be more python modders then sdkers and a mod as fundemental as this should be as easy to crossmod as we can make it. So I would add a little python that extends a builtin vanilla systems.
    Use the built in bonus prereq tags to declare the required bonus. Then base the amount of the resourse needed off of the units strength or some combination of unit attributes.
    From the players persective there will be no new interfaces or any options that the AI has to learn, but all units will have a smilarity to National Units in that you will only be able to build so many of them, but it will be a dynamic number based on your supply or the need resourse.

    Economic Mod Component #3
    Name: Quanty Resourse Trading
    Idea: Trading of bonuses between Civs is a little more detailed.
    Implimentation:
    Again for this I would stick with the built in system and enhance it with some python. I would use civ4's Trade Network code and have some amount of the traded Resourse Supply Pool from citys move to the other empire. I wouldn't give any control over the amount traded or the cities traded to/from. While those options might be nice from a pure player perspective, they increase the codeing work exponitially and not to mention that they really arn't that realistic.
    Anything more then this goes beyound an enhanced economic mod and becomes its own full fledged International Trade Mod, which while very cool doesn't seem to be the core of what your going for.

    Economic Mod Component #4
    Name: Reasourse boosting buildings
    Idea: Based on the buildings in a city, you get a plus(or maybe negative?) to the amount of resourse X the city harvests each turn.
    Implimentation:
    This one would be pretty easy on the python side. Each turn, if the building is there and resourse X is being harvested then bump up the amount harvested by Y amount. Each building that had this effect would have to be in the python code, but if you exposed it in an ini file you could keep it accesable to the majority of non coding modders.
    The hard part would be xmling up the buildings and getting the graphics(well, to a graphicly chalanged person such as myselt its hard).
    This one would require some playing with the favor ratings for the buildings so the AI would use them right, but again, that system is already in place.

    Economic Mod Component #5
    Name: Resourse boosting techs
    Idea: When you get certain techs, either your harvest rate for resourse X is boosted or you get a one time chunk of resourse X.
    Implimentation:
    This one is mainly like ModComp #4, but your harvest rate is increased in all cities for as long as you have the tech.
    For the other option, when you get said tech, an amount of the resourse is added to your capital/random cities/certain cities.
    This needs no AI modding at all as it is atomatic and for all players.

    Economic Mod Component #6
    Name: Resourse Transport Units
    Idea: Units that transport quanities of resourses from one city to another.
    Implimentation:
    Certain units will take part of a city A's Supply Pool of Resourse X. They can then add that to another city's Supply Pool.
    This would take some sdking of the AI if you want the aI to use the units right.

    Umm, well that burnt my brain,

    Anyway, my point is if you really want something to come from this brainstorming (and I know you do Chef Pablo, I can see that glint in your eye that says your serious) you need to break the grand scheme down into managable bites.

    And please take note of the fact that I didn't even mention the refined resourses being made from raw materials. This is a great idea (and the crusial step for any real Civ4 Sid Meyer's Colonization Mod) and our end goal, but we have to build the foundation and the first floor before we can worry about the second floor.

    Lastly, please don't take any of this as critisism, I mean only to help as this is somthing I would like to see get past the "I dream of this feature" stage. :)
     
  15. dh_epic

    dh_epic Cold War Veteran

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    I think there are two big dangers to adding a new economic model.

    1) Too managerial. Immediately, the temptation for the designer is to convert your Civilization to a business. Your cities become places where you build products! And the other civilizations are the buyers! And you try to outproduce the other guy, and negotiate prices! But this isn't how business works -- it occurs on the local level and national level, not just internationally. And creating a dozen new things to build in your city is really uncreative, and probably doesn't add much other than micromanagement. Negotiating prices, and trying to manage the exact quantities of your supplies -- this is way too nitty gritty.

    2) Too technical. Admittedly, economics is a very challenging and important field of study. But Civilization has generally been designed to be played by intuition, not by technicalities -- hence why more food leads to more population, even if that doesn't make sense in real life. One problem with getting too technical is that the average person will have zero clue how inflation works and how to control it. A much bigger problem is if you get too technical, you quickly realize that Civilization is a faulty and totally unrealistic game, and you'd need to tear up the economic model entirely. Guess what? You're now making a new game.

    Be that as it may, there ARE some good ideas in this thread -- some that are better at avoiding these pitfalls than others.

    The key is to think outside the box and be responsible at the same time. Focus on bang for buck, rather than trying to program your entire economics textbook into the game.
     
  16. scottland

    scottland Chieftain

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    Thanks for the critiques, guys. Chef and I are working on a proposal, and I'm in the process of putting the building blocks into the SDK to make this mod happen. As far as the component breakdown is concerned, we do have something similar planned. As for Jeckel's specific ideas, 2,3,5 and 6 are on the drawing board, 1 and 4 could be debated further. Python scares me so I'm doing this all in the SDK - are there any reasons I should learn Python?

    As far as micro-management goes, I want far less for the player - your people will choose which tiles they work on, for example. Negotiating prices will be done automatically, and goods will be sold both within cities and betwen cities, according to the needs of the population.

    Despite the title of this thread, I'm no economist, but it doesn't take much thinking to realize that economics have been far more influential in civilization development than is represented in CivIV. I think that a system can be complex and intuitive at the same time and I think that every Civilization player would agree.
     
  17. Padmewan

    Padmewan King

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    Hi, it's me again :) I'm glad you guys have taken this idea and run with it -- good luck and of course I look forward to the results, being the guy who requested this in the first place!

    I have one small item of feedback regarding Jeckel's proposal is that it seems you are running with the idea of bonuses behaving more like yields. I think this is a great idea. As you are implementing it, I would suggest studying how Civ4 currently balances yields and make sure that you are using similar mechanisms. One thing I found with yields, for example, is that having lots of buildings produce +X yield had a very different effect on the game than having it produce +% yield. The +X yield has a flat effect no matter what micromanagement proceeded later; however, the +% yield magnified other choices. For example, a building that generates a flat 2 gold/turn is very different than one that produces +25% gold/turn. In the latter case, you could generate 0 gold, for a total of 0 gold, or 100 gold for a total of 120.

    Since it seems that this mod will apply the same mechanism to iron as exists for food, I would apply these same principles to whatever buildings / specialists / technologies would have with iron as it would with food.
     
  18. Jeckel

    Jeckel Great Reverend

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    I am not any kind of proffessional programer and my grasp of C++ doesn't go much past hello world, but it is good to make things easly useable by other modders. To this end python being a scripting lang and editable in notepad is generally easyer and more commonly know in the modding community then the sdk side.

    Over all, python is pretty simple and the python code of civ4 is fairly self explanitory once you get the small syntax peticulars down. You will most likely have to have some things coded in python as the interfaces and various other things are done in python and not cpp, but if you really don't want to learn it I'm sure you can find some pythoners to help out once you have the sdk stuff done. If nothing else I would recommend getting a passing familiarity with the language and if you have any questions don't be afraid to pm me any questions ya have. :)


    As to the points brought up dh_epic, I imagine this is not going to be a favored mod of those that dislike technical and managerial games, but to those of us that enjoy these tasks in games, this mod will rock! Indeed, more then most mods, this mod will cater to a specific demographic within the Civ4 community and not neccessarially the whole thing. :)
     
  19. dh_epic

    dh_epic Cold War Veteran

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    Thanks again for braving such an important aspect of the game.

    Just be careful with doing too much automation. Whenever you design a new feature, you always have to ask yourself "What's the gameplay I want to create?" I've heard horror stories about MOO3 and GalCiv2 where the player is given a challenge in the form of limited control of his economy.

    Players hate micromanagement, but tend to hate automation. Why? Because the AI often makes bad decisions, and automation tends to take control away from them. The difference between an automated system and simply calculating an uncontrollable result is subtle but important -- the latter is usually better.

    There are obviously other ways to control your economy if tiles, prices, and exchanges are no longer in the player's control. But remember, the player is going to get fed up quickly if there are some prices, tiles, and exchanges that are less than optimal. If it means they want to move even one tile and they can't, they'll be pissed.

    Think hard, and good luck.
     
  20. chef pablo

    chef pablo Warlord

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    friday is the date slated for this proposal,keep an eye open for it
     

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