Calling all economists: How to create a fun/simple/realistic world market economy?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154418could this be used for this
In building of units,simple defensives units should be able to build inside your city but offensive units should require something eles,military bases either army,navy or airforse. these should function similer to cities but you can only build units in them.resorces neccesary for the building of units should be allocated here,in your cities you should be building the capacity for millitary might but not the millitary. this would not include ancient times but i think once you get to the bronze age it should come into play.to make a legion would require a weapons factory improvement. in city A this factory takes x amount of iron shields and turns that into x amount of weapons ,these shields go into a slush fund that incompases your intire empire, and when you go to your army base it gives you options to build units depending on what shields you have available in the fund .
there is also somebody working on some other stuff we could possibly use .the lopez has a slew of stuff that might be reworked for our purposes as well.http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169009
 
Chef, I'm impressed by your knowledge of the posts in this forum - you must spend a lot of time here. As far as military unit production is concerned, the Lopez has some good ideas, but I want to completely redesign the production system, so that military units can be created concurrently with buildings. My ideas aren't fully fleshed-out yet, but I envisage having Industries, including farming, mining and construction (amongst many others, which I am open to suggestions). The construction industry is responsible for building city improvements. You can have as many buildings being constructed as you want, but each will have to share the labour force of the industry, leading to slower completion. The military would be completely different. Once you have a blacksmith industry (only available upon the discovery of bronze working) that is making weapons, you can equiping soldiers (another population type) with those weapons. If you have a barracks, those soldiers can be trained for XP, otherwise they're green units. This can mean quick mobilization provided you have weapons stockpiled and you can conscript soldiers (convert between farmers/labourers and soldiers). We might have to adjust the XP bonus for trained units, because conscripts would be much less effective units.

I'm also thinking about changing research (there's not much I am happy with, eh). I want civilizations with peaceful, growth-based progress to develop peaceful, growth-based technologies, whereas aggressive civilizations will get military techs first. I don't want these to be based on leader-traits, they should be about what a civ actually does. If your at war, you're more likely to research good weapon advancements, not Drama. I think that having lots of farmers should give you research points towards certain types of techs, and having soldiers, points towards completely different sorts of techs. Just browsing through the list of techs in Civ4, I'm not sure if it can be done, I'd definitely need some help with that.
 
And what if great people gave you the ability to build a particular wonder; instead of having six civs all rushing to complete the Pyramids, only the one that had a great engineer born soon after masonry was discover, could build them.
 
[QUOTEChef, I'm impressed by your knowledge of the posts in this forum - you must spend a lot of time here.][/QUOTE]
its the slow season ,what can i say.Thats soon to change though

nice to finally have someone that falls in line with how i think,and that has time to code,remember how i said my hats off to you,well scratch that your a god!

Any way im going to dig up some quotes and links to the posts that they are on so if you like them you can look them up

this is a very interesting string lots of of deas herehttp://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=96081

one of my posts
there are alot of things that i want to change or add on ,but this is the biggest,suppling units.nothing drives me crazier than watching the AI run a unit in the middle of my empire and then start tearing things up. there is no front.no way to flank ,no way to deprive the enemy of its esential supplies.
would it be possible to require supply for a unit,maybee one production sheild per unit to be conected to the unit and your home civ by either road or coast in much the same way that cities are connected. the idea is to develope supply lines. if there is not a clear road or coast to home ,then your unit suffers maybee a 10% decrease in strength per turn.
this might resolve a lot of issues, such as stacking units in cities,tactics such as flanking ,blitz and scorched earth would come into play
.

there was a bunch of squabling then i posted this:
ok this is like a run away train,this is my vision .If im going to invade i want a front line, A line that runs the leangth of the country or to natural barriers.the front, advancing through enemy terratory, with no opposition dosnt slow down.the line comes to the first city rather than stop it passes and holds the line leaving the city for the units in the rear,the city is cut off from the rest of the empire. it should no longer recieve supply,this is a tactic that was used even in greek times.Going back to the line, the opposing forces begin to destroy roads in their empire to slow my advance .leaving just princable roads, they begin to mass troops on those roads to stop the advance.A line develops, each side probing for weakness attempting to punch a hole in the line ,to send cavalry in flank,and destroy the road .that is the supply line ,this is what i want

and heres the link to hte whole posthttp://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169692
same idea different post:
I have an additional thought, when I was in the service (11H thats infin,anti tank to all poges and civlian types)our basic job was to take cities and hold defensive lines to allow an advance.In essance we were the supply.
why not make inf. the supply wagon not only responible for supply but extending territory durring war time.If your inf unit is in enemy territory and you can draw a direct path,uncontested to your civ than that terratory should be yours,allowing all restriction and defensive as well as offensive bonuses take affect.
For naval, Im all for ranges but i think you should be able to build multiple ports to extend your range,matter of fact the range for one port should be small in both trade and supply,adding more ports would increase the range.This would create true port cities.


more same post:
sometimes the solution to a problem stares us in the face and we dont see it.
ive got the 12 year old boys solution,pick a groand unit for each age,warrior,maceman,musketman, rifleman,infintry,and so on tack on culture to that unit almost like a moving city.Use those units to push your border if your at peace with an opposing civ and have open borders using these units wont matter but if your not happy with the next door civ and like wise there not happy, than you use these units ,mass them at your borders to push the borders and as long as the AI does the same vioala you have your front.moving into their terrotory will push the border and soon enough theres your front and everyone is trying to look for weaknesses,flank etc.
whatya think
and heres the link,
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=85496&page=2
this post died on the vine,but i thought it warrented a look see
In combat there are a lot of units that have no defense to them till a weapon or tactic that are developed come into play .A good example would be archers,to be able to stand on a hill let loose projectile on an enemy position is deadly,particulary if you have to fight your way through enemy position to get at the archer.not untill flanking tactics came into play was this defendable.Tanks would be another example of something new on the battlefield that had to be thought about and a solution come up with.
With the addition of promotions to civ4 this could be more accuratly expressed.Basicly a new addition of a unit would need a conterpart of promotion to defend against it,the addition of archer on a battlefield of warriors would make the archer unstoppable untill or unless the opposing player has cover for a promotion.
the other promotions relating to streangth,health and so on would still be viable but a unit on the map that is undefendable against unless there is a promotion to counter ,at play would make combat alot more interesting.
Later on in the game when these tactics require a certain type of armament it would be interesting to add improvements neccesary for the promotion.Tanks on the battlefield required a rethinking of high calaber weapons,armor piercing weapons were intreduced shortley after.This could be represented by an improvement that creates armor piercing rounds,either this could be a resorce that is used for the promotion or could be just a off/on ,if you have the improvement you can use the promotion.this would be a promotion that allows you to combat armor,untill then armor would be indestructable.
this could carry over to naval and air units as well.

any comments?

if you get time you can look at this
Many years ago,I used to go to a bookshop before my shift ,next to my restaurant,and waist time while i waited to go into work.At some point i started reading this book about how civilization started and how little controle man had over his own destiny.All pretty thought provoking stuff,anyway I changed jobs, moved to a different city, had all but forgotten about this book.Then one of the networks started doing this show about the book.ah, watched it ,it filled in some of the gaps I missed,proccessed it and went about my life.
For the past ten years ive played the sid games,checked out the forums from time to time,then civ4 came out,highly modable,its time to join a forum.I grumbled about this, suggested that, never realizing i was using this book as the basis.Then on a thread somebody threw the name of the book out,aha! thats where ive been getting my ideas.
so im putting up a link to an overview of the book and show,check it out .maybee we can use some of the thoughts here for a mod.

http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/index.html
this one got nowhere
mechinized infintry is realy nothing more than a infintry unit attached to vehicles and due to the vehicles carrieing capacity better firepower,ie 50cal tow etc.
I think we should do away with building all of the speacialized units in citites and rather create speacialized units based off of simple units by combination of forces and resorces.This could take place in millitary bases.this could happen in this way.
1. creation of the tile improvements Army base,navy port and air base.
2. creation of city improvements that would make weapons of war these would act much like the wonder broadway and hollywood in that they would create resorces(finished weapons).
3. taking away the ability to build anything more than simple units in cities.
4. abilty to combine forces to access atributes at the cost of something eles ie.streangth,moblity etc.with a limit on how much you can combine.this would all take place within the bases.
this is what it would take to create speacialized units.
warrior-simple unit created in cities at less cost and a percentage of population.
archer-created in an army base with warrior and the resorce of bow created by the city improvement of fletcher.
axmen,swordmen,all early melee units-created in an army base with warrior and weapon resorce (created in a city with the improvement of armory). to train these speacialized units would require fortifieing in the base ,and indivisual units reserching the bonus spacific to the strength,ie.axman reserches melle attack, swordsman reserches city attack,etc.this would happen when enough expierience is aquired either through battle ,barracks or additional fortification time in a army base.essentialy, fortifieing in a base would be the same as drilling or training troops.
charriot,-requires a warrior and horse resorce built in army base.
horse archer -requires archer and horse resorce built in army base.
catapult-requires warrior and seige waepon resorcethis built in an army base. the resorce built in a city with foundry improvement.
naval warfare could take advantage of the ablity as well combining archer with gally to create a more offensive gally unit
I think adding aditional resorces should be a possibilty at a cost of an ability ,such as adding more than one seige weapon resorce to a catapult would give it additional streangth but make it imobile,but later you could add a horse resorce to give it mobilty back.you should only be able to alter a unit once per turn.Some of this would have to be technologicly feesable.

Now on to modern times

resorces created by improvements would be;armor piercing roands ,high caliber roands,high explosive roands,high velocityroands ,self proppeld roands,vehicles,armor,cannon,radar,sonar,elecrtic batteries,deisle fuel,high octane fuel,parachutes,
units that could be created;
anti armor inf,requires inf and anti armor round shield built in army base.
antiaircraft requires inf. and high valocity shield with cannon shield built in army base.
howitzer would require infin and cannon shield,high explosive shield with high caliber round shield built in army base
tank would require inf and armor shield with high caliber round shield built in army base
self propeled howitzer would require combining tank and hwitzer units in an army base
paratroopers and varients of this such as airborn armor,and anti tank paratroopers would train in airbases.
marine and thiere varients would train in naval ports.
streangth of naval units could be modified in port,ie.anti aircraft cruisers,pt boats,anti submarine destroyers,scoating destroyers etc.
combining of army units would create the units that we see in the world,such as anti armor infintry units,mechinzed units,self propelled howitzer,anti tank calvalry(both helicopter and armor)etc.
In the air it would work the same,fighters used for intercept,groand support,naval attack,short and long range bombing,long range reconasence

with the addition of a shield concept it should allow for more of a differtiation of units and a more of a 1/0 on units ,a unit with a armor shield should be imposible to attack or defend against unless you have an unit with armor piercing shield.every shield has its own streangth and advantages,cannon shield should give you more attack and defend bonus.high explosive round should give you more collateral damage.high vallocity rounds would give you defensive capability on air strikes etc.what I want here is units to have clear advatages,a tank attacking a fortified anti armor cannon would be a death sentance for the tank,yet attacking a fortified infintry possition would spell doom for the infintry.
Along with this I would like to add a concealment concept that would be added to fortifieing, basicly you wouldnt be able to see a fortified unit untill your right next to the unit this would create the need to probe possitions ,(thats if the supply mod is made that everyone has been buzzing about)units could be givin advantages of sight to reveal concealed units and some units would automaticly have these advantages ,such as aircraft
the possiblity is endless I just dont know if the AI could handle it.
does anybody have any ther additions to this or is this just a dumb idea?

you can check out this whole string
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169586
I think thats enough reserch stuff,ill anser your post next one down.
 
its sounds like we both want to take this monster ,strap it to the table take it apart to the brain and spinalcord and put it back together.sooo,
1production i think we got a sence of what we both want there at least there is a dialog there.
2trade yeh got that one
3commerce weve started but i dont think we ever discussed what to do with it
4science what do you think about getting rid of the sliding bar altogether ,strictly a population set up.since hopefully our cities are going to be geared to one type of production or the other than maybee we could have multiple tech trees,any scientist working in a city reserches the prevailing production for that city.example would be a city thats going all out on refining and producing food stuffs would reserch growth techs.

since your doing so much i feel compeled to give you this recipe,great for a date at the house.
Pho ga(vietnamese chicken noodle)
1 whole chicken
1onion
2 bay leaves
small hand full peppercorn
2 anis star
2clove garlic
1pack pad thai rice noodle(find in asian market)
1/2 fresh fine julianed cucumber
1/2 fresh fine julianed carrot
1/2 fine julianed red onion
1/2 cup choped cilantro
chopped green onion
1lime cut into wedges
1 bottle of sriracha chili sauce(also in asian market)
chicken,onion,bay,anis star,peppercorn,garlic in a stock pot or dutch oven with enough water to cover,bring up to a boil and then turn down to simmer cook for about one -one 1/2 hour till meat falls off bone.
strain make sure you resurve the liquide place chicken on a plate to cool and toss the rest put liquid back into pot,when chicken is cool enough to handle pick the meat and set aside,toss the fat and bones.
bring stock back up to boil ,season with salt to taste.
add rice noodles cook till aldente,dont cremate them
now for assembly:
in a good deep soup bowl,some pulled chicken ,cooked rice noodles,pinch of cucumber,pinch of carrot,pinch of cilantro,pinch of red onion ,pinch of green onion,to taste a couple of drops of siriracha chili sauce,squeeze lime wedge ,ladle over this the hot stock till bowl is half full
pair of chop sticks and your stylin,enjoy
 
Military supply is something I'd like change too, but I fear I've already bitten off more than I can chew. If I ever get through this socio-economic mod, this will be pretty high up on my list.

Getting rid of settlers has some appeal to me, but I think that they should be still available for most government types. You are right that many cities have been founded by people independant of control by their government, but also many cities (throughout the ages) have been deliberately and purposefully founded by states - e.g. Roman outposts in England, Spain and North Africa, European colonization of Africa, Americas and Oceania, Jewish settlements in Palestine.

Basically I see commerce as giving your population money, which you take some of in tax, which you can spend on military, education, civics, bureaucracy (sp?), etc. Obviously something that needs to be tested to work out the best formula for this.

As far as science goes, I don't want to redesign the tech tree, but if someone else wants to with my mod in mind, I'll happily incorporate it. I think I mentioned in one of my first posts that science would only be generated by scientists. I like the idea of specialized research, but it may require a lot of messing with the XML.

I don't know what a Dutch oven is in the US, but here it's means when someone farts under the bed sheet when another person has their head under there.
I'd rather not eat chicken prepared like that.
The anis star sounds a bit messy also.
Other than that, sounds good!
 
perhaps its time to create a new string,anounce a new mod being put together and ask for help.we would need to collect our ideas thus far ,make a proposal of ideas immediatly being worked on and future ideas.nedd to give it a name as well,i vote for the big stew(so much is going tobe reworked and intigrated)could also call it civ deconstructed or the great deconstruction.
I don't know what a Dutch oven is in the US, but here it's means when someone farts under the bed sheet when another person has their head under there.
I'd rather not eat chicken prepared like that.
The anis star sounds a bit messy also.
Other than that, sounds good!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
thats frikin hilariouse,a dutch oven is half the hight of a stock and a little wider,star anis you can get at an asian market.
 
Well, a little comment that may have been said before, but if oil wells generate X ammount of oil units per Y turns, X should depend on the size of the map, the biggest maps providing the least oil, since they have more wells, and on the other side, a single oil well for a tiny map can easely represent many on a bigger map.
 
Armed_Maniac said:
Well, a little comment that may have been said before, but if oil wells generate X ammount of oil units per Y turns, X should depend on the size of the map, the biggest maps providing the least oil, since they have more wells, and on the other side, a single oil well for a tiny map can easely represent many on a bigger map.

Bigger maps will need more oil, because there will be more cities, more units and more people. The current system adjusts the number of bonus resources for different map sizes, so if they all produce (roughly) the same amount of oil, game balance will be preserved.
 
WOW!! this is awsome! you guys are realy going all out on this. I have an idea that might work with your mod about science. What drives me nuts is that back in the time of the Romans, inventions such as the steam engine and electricity were around, just not in use (or at least powerful enough to be sinificant). What I'd like to see is a network of Techs that as soon as the tech is logicly available, you should be able to research it. That's kind of what we're talking about on my thread and was wondering what you guys might think about it (chef pablo's already seen it).

well... my address bar has disapeared and I can't get it back... sooo mabey chef pablo can get it to you.
 
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well... my address bar has disapeared and I can't get it back... sooo mabey chef pablo can get it to you
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=173435
would be nice to be asked,
I don't know what a Dutch oven is in the US, but here it's means when someone farts under the bed sheet when another person has their head under there.
course this means from now on im going to ask my cooks"hey go get me the stinky bedsheets"
 
Not quite sure what you're proposing Dopelganger, do you want a tech tree with lots of shortcuts? I think that would lead to exploitation by the player because they would go for the most advanced techs as soon as possible. What I (eventually) want to do with the tech tree is substantially reduce the control over what is researched by your civ - hence reducing the exploits of weakness in the tech tree (meaning we can add techs that are completely useless, because they will be researched anyway). There could be a two-stage research process - first your scientists discover the concept of steam power, for example, and then your engineers (with enough funding, and free time) work out how to make it useful.
 
There are alot of cool ideas in this thread and many others on this topic, but if you want to get somthing coded your going to have to take a step back from the grand brainstorming and get down to brass tacks. As Chef Pablo said a few posts back, you need to gather together your basic, specific, ideas and put together a proposal and post it in a new thread. Until that point, I don't think your going to get any coders wanting to take on the task.

That said, I must say that I am, and have been, very intriqued by the ideas posted in this thread and would like to offer my advise on a few things.

The "economic mod" that has developed so far is way to complex and interwoven. It needs to be broken down in several individual, standalone mod components. Lets start with the first and most neccecary one...

Economic Mod Component #1
Name: Quanified Resourses Mod
Idea: Resourses are no longer infinite, but instead have a set quanity when created and are depleted as they are worked.
Implimentation:
When a game is started resourses are given a set amount. Every turn that a resourse is worked an amount is removed from the resourse, most likely based on the number of hammers gotten from the square. When a resourse has all of its supply depleted the resourse will vanish from the map.
Each turn that the resourse is worked a portion or the resourse worked will be added to the city's supply pool for that resourse.
In-Game Effect:
Not much ingame effect other then the removing of depleted resourses, all the rest is just data being stored behind the scenes.


Economic Mod Component #2
Name: Quantified Unit Bonus PreReq
Idea: Instead of a unit just needing iron, it needs X iron.
Implimentation:
Useing the resourse supply pool from ModComp #1 you can control the building of units. The hard part is deciding how much each unit needs of a given resourse.
There is always the option of new XML tags through use of sdk, but imo this should be a last resort. There will always be more python modders then sdkers and a mod as fundemental as this should be as easy to crossmod as we can make it. So I would add a little python that extends a builtin vanilla systems.
Use the built in bonus prereq tags to declare the required bonus. Then base the amount of the resourse needed off of the units strength or some combination of unit attributes.
From the players persective there will be no new interfaces or any options that the AI has to learn, but all units will have a smilarity to National Units in that you will only be able to build so many of them, but it will be a dynamic number based on your supply or the need resourse.

Economic Mod Component #3
Name: Quanty Resourse Trading
Idea: Trading of bonuses between Civs is a little more detailed.
Implimentation:
Again for this I would stick with the built in system and enhance it with some python. I would use civ4's Trade Network code and have some amount of the traded Resourse Supply Pool from citys move to the other empire. I wouldn't give any control over the amount traded or the cities traded to/from. While those options might be nice from a pure player perspective, they increase the codeing work exponitially and not to mention that they really arn't that realistic.
Anything more then this goes beyound an enhanced economic mod and becomes its own full fledged International Trade Mod, which while very cool doesn't seem to be the core of what your going for.

Economic Mod Component #4
Name: Reasourse boosting buildings
Idea: Based on the buildings in a city, you get a plus(or maybe negative?) to the amount of resourse X the city harvests each turn.
Implimentation:
This one would be pretty easy on the python side. Each turn, if the building is there and resourse X is being harvested then bump up the amount harvested by Y amount. Each building that had this effect would have to be in the python code, but if you exposed it in an ini file you could keep it accesable to the majority of non coding modders.
The hard part would be xmling up the buildings and getting the graphics(well, to a graphicly chalanged person such as myselt its hard).
This one would require some playing with the favor ratings for the buildings so the AI would use them right, but again, that system is already in place.

Economic Mod Component #5
Name: Resourse boosting techs
Idea: When you get certain techs, either your harvest rate for resourse X is boosted or you get a one time chunk of resourse X.
Implimentation:
This one is mainly like ModComp #4, but your harvest rate is increased in all cities for as long as you have the tech.
For the other option, when you get said tech, an amount of the resourse is added to your capital/random cities/certain cities.
This needs no AI modding at all as it is atomatic and for all players.

Economic Mod Component #6
Name: Resourse Transport Units
Idea: Units that transport quanities of resourses from one city to another.
Implimentation:
Certain units will take part of a city A's Supply Pool of Resourse X. They can then add that to another city's Supply Pool.
This would take some sdking of the AI if you want the aI to use the units right.

Umm, well that burnt my brain,

Anyway, my point is if you really want something to come from this brainstorming (and I know you do Chef Pablo, I can see that glint in your eye that says your serious) you need to break the grand scheme down into managable bites.

And please take note of the fact that I didn't even mention the refined resourses being made from raw materials. This is a great idea (and the crusial step for any real Civ4 Sid Meyer's Colonization Mod) and our end goal, but we have to build the foundation and the first floor before we can worry about the second floor.

Lastly, please don't take any of this as critisism, I mean only to help as this is somthing I would like to see get past the "I dream of this feature" stage. :)
 
I think there are two big dangers to adding a new economic model.

1) Too managerial. Immediately, the temptation for the designer is to convert your Civilization to a business. Your cities become places where you build products! And the other civilizations are the buyers! And you try to outproduce the other guy, and negotiate prices! But this isn't how business works -- it occurs on the local level and national level, not just internationally. And creating a dozen new things to build in your city is really uncreative, and probably doesn't add much other than micromanagement. Negotiating prices, and trying to manage the exact quantities of your supplies -- this is way too nitty gritty.

2) Too technical. Admittedly, economics is a very challenging and important field of study. But Civilization has generally been designed to be played by intuition, not by technicalities -- hence why more food leads to more population, even if that doesn't make sense in real life. One problem with getting too technical is that the average person will have zero clue how inflation works and how to control it. A much bigger problem is if you get too technical, you quickly realize that Civilization is a faulty and totally unrealistic game, and you'd need to tear up the economic model entirely. Guess what? You're now making a new game.

Be that as it may, there ARE some good ideas in this thread -- some that are better at avoiding these pitfalls than others.

The key is to think outside the box and be responsible at the same time. Focus on bang for buck, rather than trying to program your entire economics textbook into the game.
 
Thanks for the critiques, guys. Chef and I are working on a proposal, and I'm in the process of putting the building blocks into the SDK to make this mod happen. As far as the component breakdown is concerned, we do have something similar planned. As for Jeckel's specific ideas, 2,3,5 and 6 are on the drawing board, 1 and 4 could be debated further. Python scares me so I'm doing this all in the SDK - are there any reasons I should learn Python?

As far as micro-management goes, I want far less for the player - your people will choose which tiles they work on, for example. Negotiating prices will be done automatically, and goods will be sold both within cities and betwen cities, according to the needs of the population.

Despite the title of this thread, I'm no economist, but it doesn't take much thinking to realize that economics have been far more influential in civilization development than is represented in CivIV. I think that a system can be complex and intuitive at the same time and I think that every Civilization player would agree.
 
Hi, it's me again :) I'm glad you guys have taken this idea and run with it -- good luck and of course I look forward to the results, being the guy who requested this in the first place!

I have one small item of feedback regarding Jeckel's proposal is that it seems you are running with the idea of bonuses behaving more like yields. I think this is a great idea. As you are implementing it, I would suggest studying how Civ4 currently balances yields and make sure that you are using similar mechanisms. One thing I found with yields, for example, is that having lots of buildings produce +X yield had a very different effect on the game than having it produce +% yield. The +X yield has a flat effect no matter what micromanagement proceeded later; however, the +% yield magnified other choices. For example, a building that generates a flat 2 gold/turn is very different than one that produces +25% gold/turn. In the latter case, you could generate 0 gold, for a total of 0 gold, or 100 gold for a total of 120.

Since it seems that this mod will apply the same mechanism to iron as exists for food, I would apply these same principles to whatever buildings / specialists / technologies would have with iron as it would with food.
 
scottland said:
Python scares me so I'm doing this all in the SDK - are there any reasons I should learn Python?

I am not any kind of proffessional programer and my grasp of C++ doesn't go much past hello world, but it is good to make things easly useable by other modders. To this end python being a scripting lang and editable in notepad is generally easyer and more commonly know in the modding community then the sdk side.

Over all, python is pretty simple and the python code of civ4 is fairly self explanitory once you get the small syntax peticulars down. You will most likely have to have some things coded in python as the interfaces and various other things are done in python and not cpp, but if you really don't want to learn it I'm sure you can find some pythoners to help out once you have the sdk stuff done. If nothing else I would recommend getting a passing familiarity with the language and if you have any questions don't be afraid to pm me any questions ya have. :)


As to the points brought up dh_epic, I imagine this is not going to be a favored mod of those that dislike technical and managerial games, but to those of us that enjoy these tasks in games, this mod will rock! Indeed, more then most mods, this mod will cater to a specific demographic within the Civ4 community and not neccessarially the whole thing. :)
 
Thanks again for braving such an important aspect of the game.

scottland said:
As far as micro-management goes, I want far less for the player - your people will choose which tiles they work on, for example. Negotiating prices will be done automatically, and goods will be sold both within cities and betwen cities, according to the needs of the population.

Just be careful with doing too much automation. Whenever you design a new feature, you always have to ask yourself "What's the gameplay I want to create?" I've heard horror stories about MOO3 and GalCiv2 where the player is given a challenge in the form of limited control of his economy.

Players hate micromanagement, but tend to hate automation. Why? Because the AI often makes bad decisions, and automation tends to take control away from them. The difference between an automated system and simply calculating an uncontrollable result is subtle but important -- the latter is usually better.

There are obviously other ways to control your economy if tiles, prices, and exchanges are no longer in the player's control. But remember, the player is going to get fed up quickly if there are some prices, tiles, and exchanges that are less than optimal. If it means they want to move even one tile and they can't, they'll be pissed.

Think hard, and good luck.
 
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