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Came back after a few months, district cost formula still kills the game

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Tomice, May 4, 2017.

  1. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    I only played Civ6 for a few weeks after release, but several issues kept me from enjoying the game.
    The worst of them was the district cost formula and the exaggerated importance of production.

    I decided to give it a shot again, just to realize that many central issues haven't been fixed.
    • Researching techs and civics results in a penalty regarding district costs, making me avoid all tech- and culture related buildings. I try to pre-research techs up to 45%, so that even an Eureka doesn't finish it. I only finish those that give me an immediate benefit. This kind of micromanagement just isn't fun.
    • Only industrial zones and trade hubs really matter, maybe also harbors since the last patch. Most other districts seem pointless, especially those for tech and culture.
    • The increasing district costs makes all cities not founded in the early game pointless, they just can't catch up.

    What makes me wonder, however, is that the topic seemingly disappeared from this board?
    The issue seemed so prominent back at release, I really thought community pressure would force them to change something within the first 3 patches.

    Am I missing something? Is there something redeeming about the current system?

    If not, can anybody recommend a good mod? Haven't found much myself, only this one, but it doesn't seem too popular:
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/district-cost-mod.604481/
     
    sugerdady87, Magil, Atlas627 and 7 others like this.
  2. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

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    The topic disappeared because you're not playing the game right. It's very easy to simply play the game like normal, so just finishing techs, civics, building campuses and theater squares and still be able to found a new city in the Industrial Era or something and get it running in a short amount of time. You place 3 trade routes there, buy a few builders, and 50 turns later you're looking at a fully developed city.

    The only thing is that yes, Industrial Zones are important, though optimal is to build them only so that you cover each city with regional bonuses, and Commercial Hubs and Harbors are still important because of the trade routes. But they are most certainly not the only districts you build, even if only because a science victory requires a lot of campuses and a cultural victory requires a lot of theater squares. The only other thing regarding costs is that late game techs and civics still go pretty fast, but you can use 8 Ages of Pace or some other mod for that. Most modpacks also include a mod that slows tech and civic speed.
     
  3. fodazd

    fodazd Chieftain

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  4. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    Fortunately, this kind of micromanagement isn't necessary -- it's even counterproductive. Research unlocks are important; doing your best to avoid progressing to key technologies and civics is slowing you down.

    Overbuilding is one of the most common major strategic errors people make in civilization games: cities don't need everything.

    You find tech and culture districts pointless because you are massively undervaluing tech and culture. Also, don't forget that in addition to helping you produce science or culture or tourism, the districts also allow you to produce great people points, which are essential elements to some paths to victory.

    They still give you science and culture from citizens. They still claim territory and resources. They can still produce cogs towards military production. You can still build or buy city center buildings. Even mid-game cities can still build a district soon enough to contribute to victory.

    And, of course, you can still stack trade routes on them to manage high-cog builds.
     
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  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    The topic disappeared because people discovered it's untrue

    I never micromanage eurekas like some perfectionists and I still win, you do not need to (thank god) just like you do not have to have a builder 1 turn away in every city when you hit feudalism etc etc.

    Yes, you seem to be missing a bit. Buy a builder and 2 trade routes and it will be 10-15 turns to get a district at about turn 200.

    A single theatre in a civ with no bonuses just with a theatre and 2 writers produces 18 culture at printing. That's pretty strong.

    Campuses with the enlightenment card will produce more than the raw city itself let alone when you count adjacency and great scientist benefits and the eurekas they provide.

    If you promise not to build campuses I'll happily outtech you mid game in a fight.

    There is no right or perfect route to always win this version currently, I hope it continues. I know it will annoy the chess players but every release pleases another crowd.
     
  6. Calyxx

    Calyxx Warlord

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    I think the district cost scaling is fine, though the initial numbers do sometimes look imposing, before you get a worker and trade routes online for the new city.

    The main problem, from my perspective, is that tech/culture speed seems to be out of step with things like production and troop movement. Build a few campuses / theater squares and you are accumulating techs faster than you can build the units they unlock, much less move them into position. If techs and civics were just a little bit more expensive, I think the balance would be quite good.
     
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  7. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Prince

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    The scaling could probably use a bit of fine-tuning and intuitively it doesn't make a whole lot of sense but I think it works just fine as long as you scale up your production accordingly. You could always play as Aztecs and use their district charges to speed things up.

    As far as theater districts and campuses having no utility well that's probably just a result of your play style. If you play domination then they are less important but you still need to keep pace in tech for the best units. If you are going for a cultural victory then clearly theater districts are important.

    Also you can still easily just conquer cities which already have districts present if you don't feel like building them in the later eras. It's still useful to found new cities for resources and luxuries but I usually will only build a few districts in those. They can still be productive though.
     
    nzcamel likes this.
  8. fodazd

    fodazd Chieftain

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    I disagree with the notion that the scaling works fine.

    The fact that you don't strictly *have to* do all the micromanagement and counter-intuitive optimizations it encourages and that you *can theoretically* still develop new cities later in the game doesn't mean it's a good system.
     
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  9. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    I play with a mod a bit like this, except instead of a fixed cost for all districts, the early ones a cheaper (60-90-120-etc.) while the later ones are consecutively more expensive.

    The impact of making districts cheaper is huge. Not only does it make the game much more fun (imo.), but more importantly, the AI performs MUCH better at the game overall. Instead of AI hardly building any districts - which has been the case in all my games since last patch - AI builds huge number of districts of all sorts and fares much better in technology, culture and military. So I fully agree for fodazd here, just because game sort of "works" with district scaling, that's not saying it's the best solution.
     
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  10. Photi

    Photi Governor

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    About all the micromanaging I ever do is in the early game. I'll micromanage my first 2-3 cities first 3-4 citizens, I'll play the eureka game with my civics and techs until about Political Philosophy, and I never auto explore until at least the mid game, if ever. I never pre-build builders for a feudalism labor day or anything like that, and I still win at immortal and deity (I prefer immortal though I need to play more deity to up my game). Maybe I'll never be an "optimum" but whatever, there has always been a group of micromanagers playing Civ, and their enjoyment of tedium will always give them an edge over me, but I think it's cool the game caters to all these multiple play styles. "Have to do this" or "Have to do that" or "Campuses and Theater Squares are useless" are hyperbolic falsehoods disproven over and over. But hey, Civilization forum sniping is fun for some too, all part of the game.
     
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  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    The reason I like it is because you have choices. A system with choices is a great system in my view.

    Can't theoretically? I do it all the time, are you not skilled enough to try something before you slag it off?
     
  12. MantaRevan

    MantaRevan Emperor

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    Spaceport districts are the worst example of this. Even in core cities, the district provides nothing besides viability towards Space Race and costs a ludicrous amount of time for non-Aztecs to build. I went back and played Korea on Civ 5 immortal a week or so ago and the differences were momentous. Spaceship parts are reasonably priced, could be built in any city without a crazy upfront investment other than apollo program, and could be bought by Freedom civs. The Hubble wonder and International Space Station exist to help space players get to their goals faster. In Civ 6, Space race is a joke- anyone advanced and productive enough to get those spaceports in key cities is probably better off going for the easy domination win instead.
     
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  13. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

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    In my last (and only) science victory it was actually my teching that held me back, while I in the end surpassed some 700 or 800 science per turn. I chunked out the Spaceport in about ten turns I believe, counting two forests I chopped, and I needed less than 10 turns for every single one of the parts. And that was without Australia's liberation bonus - when I got that one on the last spaceship part it was like three more turns until I had won.

    You just need to select your most hilled city, build Ruhr Valley and put all your trade routes there. In the end I had 180 production per turn (again, without liberation bonus).
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2017
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  14. fodazd

    fodazd Chieftain

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    How does the current formula for district scaling give more choices than flat costs for districts?


    You absolutely can develop new cities late game even with the vanilla scaling formula, but I never saw any reason for it. Far too expensive compared to better things you could be doing.

    ...And yes, I never tried too hard to make this work before writing my mod, because to me it was pretty obvious from the beginning that the vanilla system is just bad.
     
  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Because many mechanics in this game scale and they interplay, it's called game design that provides choice and complexity. You are a mod, cheers, makes sense why you do not like vanilla.
     
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  16. fodazd

    fodazd Chieftain

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    I still don't understand. Yes, the scaling cost have interplay with many other mechanics, but the only choice that arises from that interplay is "Do I go along all this stupid micromanagement this mechanic encourages, or not?", which I don't see as a very interesting choice.
     
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  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    The district cost mod man is not going to be convinced he built a mod that made getting districts late cheaper break the mechanics. It's pointless to continue.
     
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  18. Magma_Dragoon

    Magma_Dragoon Reploid

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    I tried a couple games that way, it didn't work out well. They are still worth building wherever terrain favors them for the great engineer points and local production. You don't get factories or power plants for a long time, and you just don't get enough gpp to ever get a GE if you build them sparingly. Rule of thumb I use is if a city doesn't get an industrial zone it gets an encampment instead, even if I don't plan on going to war any time soon just for the production. Also it helps to have GG points, even if AIs gobble them up I get enough points that I can faith buy if I need one. Germany should build Hansas in pretty much every city.
     
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  19. rschissler

    rschissler King

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    While the inflation of costs isn't a bad thing, I think it is too extreme and should be scaled back some. Just look at the settler cost in the later game.
     
  20. Manifold

    Manifold ModderProtectionAdvocate

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    Yes, I know this. There is no point to research universities when I did not build any library yet....If I miss the 49%, this is a reason to reload. But sometime techs/cultural inspirations are so important, that you should rush them, they are few!

    It depends on. Yes industrial zones and one district for the trader are the best. But I also love encampments (+production, at appropriate places invincible defense against the AI) with Carthage (extra trader) and the policy card to accelerate the production of the encampment and buildings. Of course holy districts are only if you want a own religion. In the core country, however, you should start at the beginning to build one campus in one city (with three mountains) and one Theater Square (and already think about the location of WW) in another city to catch up with the start bonus of the AI.

    That´s what I feel as well. Of course it is possible to rush everything with a lot of gold and traders in the new city, as the others wrote already. BUT this was not the approach for newly founded cities. Spain, England, France, Russia...they found new cities all over the world to get more gold and not less.

    Your items on your list are in addition to many missing little things big problems to solve.
    I am also still thinking two tech trees are too much.
    It was also not good to cut culture and religion from happiness. Both districts should provide happiness and a holy district should provide some culture. the cultural tech tree has also military and scientific progress which are not related to things happened in theaters or in the radio.
    The second tech tree is to much. But this has to do with the introduction of the new districts and I still find them very good. And meanwhile I just see everything more symbolic.

    A problem is also the pre-arranged districts (place a building site to spare costs) after the invention of the necessary tech, but then build something other.


    Here are my ideas:

    0) Even more expensive techs make the game slower and it becomes too many units, everything becomes confusing.
    00) Some inflation in production cost is not bad for a game.

    tech progress as reward again not a punishment
    1) Make eurekas more sophisticated e.g. circumnavigation of the world,
    Conquer a city...

    2) Delete the tech progress from the district cost. Instead again the number of own districts in the empire but more in the city and compared to the average number your neighbors have should be important. I guess this will come, when the game gets some administration business like town hall, courthouse, jail...

    3) Decrease science and culture from the population. Simply only human crowds do not invent anything.

    4) The costs of the techs should depend on the scientific progress of your trading partners, enemies, neighbors. You have to invest a lot, if you want a tech first or second or third on your continent. tech progress should be a reward again.

    promote other districts:
    5) The holy and the theater districts should provide happiness and the holy district some culture.

    3) Decrease science and culture from the population. Simply only human crowds do not invent anything.

    promote new cities:
    6) It should be possible to allow people to migrate from one city to another, for example, to dissolve unhappiness or overpopulation and to promote the new colonies.

    7) But a way to make the game so that colonies can surpass their mothers cities (e.g. New York, Rio de Janeiro, Syracus, Carthage...) is very hard. Probably it is only possible with penalties for old cities and then most of the play fun is lost. There is a mod which reduce the population for every trained unit. IMO a growth malus for every trained unit for x turns would fit (because the youth is on the field and not in bed). Mostly you do not build units in the colonies rather in your old cities, so the colonies can catch up.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2017

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