Zx Zero Zx
Deity
How does 1 good quality of a Civ make it good? That is like saying Toku is a good Civ, or that Burger King is amazing.
Camel Archer Useless ?
- Thread starter wizard73
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How does 1 good quality of a Civ make it good? That is like saying Toku is a good Civ, or that Burger King is amazing.
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
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Lol, BurgerKing is amazing -.-
IMP-Trait + Rathhaus? Enough for me imho to play him.
Toku sucks, I aggree on that, PRO / AGG are both a waste, especially together, and TW + Fishing as starting Techs are stupidity^10, as if one could build roads on the water -.-
IMP-Trait + Rathhaus? Enough for me imho to play him.
Toku sucks, I aggree on that, PRO / AGG are both a waste, especially together, and TW + Fishing as starting Techs are stupidity^10, as if one could build roads on the water -.-
Zx Zero Zx
Deity
Burger King is better than most give him credit for, but he is no WvO of Tulipland. But not many compare to Tulips or the Sexy Redhead of the Suppressors of Scotland.
The only thing good about Tokus techs is you can tech Pottery right away.
vicawoo
Chieftain
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Seems very reasonable to me, especially when your trait can alter gameplay as much as spiritual. Philosophical is probably the other one.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
Dunno, after playing Toku, all civs are great to me.
Spiritual allows you to squeeze maximum from your land and your diplo, without negative feedback and is strongest trait for me. Philo can set you into tech lead quickly and allow some rushes. Of course SPI+PHI is better than just SPI, but when you can also get Tokugawa, I find just one imba trait enough to declare some civ good. Having some good starting techs also helps. I never consider UU (Inca excluded). But that is just an opinion. Like everything I said.
Spiritual allows you to squeeze maximum from your land and your diplo, without negative feedback and is strongest trait for me. Philo can set you into tech lead quickly and allow some rushes. Of course SPI+PHI is better than just SPI, but when you can also get Tokugawa, I find just one imba trait enough to declare some civ good. Having some good starting techs also helps. I never consider UU (Inca excluded). But that is just an opinion. Like everything I said.
Zx Zero Zx
Deity
How is Spi game breaking? Sure you can switch into Caste for GPs more often, but that hardly breaks the game. Spi is really only at it's best when you couple it with another good trait like Fin, Phil, Ind.
Civ is a game of snowballing, not a game of gaining small gains over time. If you can get a massive advantage early you are going to win. Spi is a good solid trait, but it is no way imba.
MaximumPain
Warlord
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Wow this thread makes me want to go fire up a game with Saladin of Arabia when I get home.
As a side note did anyone else know he was Kurdish?
As a side note did anyone else know he was Kurdish?
AbsoluteZero
Deity
Spiritual is fine but for getting fast guilds it's not particularly helpful. Saladin's sort of a mediocre leader, getting to guilds fast enough to push a knight advantage requires either a good start or a good leader, otherwise you run into pikes and castles.
Camel archer only stands out for the +withdraw chance over a regular knight because at that point in the game you can usually get the resources 90+% of the time. Not a huge boost and certainly not going to carry you very far by itself.
Justinian's cataphracts are much better.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
Or, if you switch to OR and slavery to whip, then to caste and Paci for some GP, and then again to building infra, and in some time in the near future of superbly developed and advanced empire you put some turns into whipping some units under Feudalism and Theocracy.
Well, if you put Saladin in context of making as early as possible rush with his Camel Archers, he doesn't really shine. Anyway, any knight rush is too huge of a gamble compared to cuir rush, and Saladin with his SPI will get you there faster. But that is very narrow view. There are other VCs than domquest, like culture or UN and Saladin can be very competitive there, again, solely due to Spiritual.
Zx Zero Zx
Deity
I think you drastically overrate Spi, I agree that it is a good trait. But in reality how many times a game are you actually going to civic swap? Are you going to go out of your way to swap more than you normally would? Besides I don't think I would ever swap into Paci unless I had the Swag Pag. As Philosophy is fairly far down the tech tree for needing to swap into it for getting GPs. From one GA you can get more than enough GS to bulb your way to Lib. Over the course of the game you are going to lose like 5 turns off not being Spi, and that really doesn't matter at all. Spi really only shines when you have The Mids or Swag Pag.
How does Spi help Culture at all? What does it provide to you winning faster? The only thing it helps is diplo when they ask you to switch civics, and religions. But then again unless you are doing something like Sera where you need the AI to like you somewhat so you can get their resources, you can deny almost every single one of the AIs demands.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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While I agree, the thread is discussing camel archers, and the only restricted leader that can build them is very much not suited for putting any kind of priority on them.''
SPI is what lifts Sal of Arabia out of "low tier" territory and into the land of "ok". He doesn't do anything particularly well, but he has some abilities you can use thanks to SPI and a culture troll UB.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
@ZxZeroZx
With SPI, I will swap a lot. I will swap as soon as I get Caste System, as soon as I bulb Philosophy with GS which came 1T before cause turn was already saved on slavery switch and maybe even from Hereditary rule switch. In normal games you wait for GA from Music Artist or 2nd or 3rd GS to make all those switches at once and all that usually when you get Civil Service. It allows you to utilize those traits as soon as you get them. You will have faster GP and will bulb faster and it all snowballs from there. I already mentioned slavery+OR and Caste+Paci cycles which are really powerful. Try it if you don't believe. Later, when you are well developed, you can go into Pacifism for some great people for golden ages. Good for everything including space race.
Regarding Culture, how the hell SPI isn't helping? You usually have 3 religions when you go culture and at least 6 cities. You need to make at least 18 temples to unlock all cathedrals. Cheap temples save your population and allow you to work and mature more cottages. Yes, PHI is better, but next best trait for culture is, believe it or not, exactly SPI. Did you ever think why always Gandhi when you see people playing culture in HoF?
And diplo is ''the only thing it helps''? Well only games in which you don't need diplo so much are easy games. Deity is all about diplo. Sooner people figure that out the better. Spi will often save your skin early.
You can use SPI for espionage. Switch to religion for espionage bonus. Remember that Philo bulb. Chances are good you got Tao. You can make GPro easily with Madrassa and make a shrine for more bonus. Then steal stuff cheaper then it gets you to research them.
And I probaly forgot some stuff.
@TMIT
Exactly, Saladin is not bad nor Great, but he is ok.
With SPI, I will swap a lot. I will swap as soon as I get Caste System, as soon as I bulb Philosophy with GS which came 1T before cause turn was already saved on slavery switch and maybe even from Hereditary rule switch. In normal games you wait for GA from Music Artist or 2nd or 3rd GS to make all those switches at once and all that usually when you get Civil Service. It allows you to utilize those traits as soon as you get them. You will have faster GP and will bulb faster and it all snowballs from there. I already mentioned slavery+OR and Caste+Paci cycles which are really powerful. Try it if you don't believe. Later, when you are well developed, you can go into Pacifism for some great people for golden ages. Good for everything including space race.
Regarding Culture, how the hell SPI isn't helping? You usually have 3 religions when you go culture and at least 6 cities. You need to make at least 18 temples to unlock all cathedrals. Cheap temples save your population and allow you to work and mature more cottages. Yes, PHI is better, but next best trait for culture is, believe it or not, exactly SPI. Did you ever think why always Gandhi when you see people playing culture in HoF?
And diplo is ''the only thing it helps''? Well only games in which you don't need diplo so much are easy games. Deity is all about diplo. Sooner people figure that out the better. Spi will often save your skin early.
You can use SPI for espionage. Switch to religion for espionage bonus. Remember that Philo bulb. Chances are good you got Tao. You can make GPro easily with Madrassa and make a shrine for more bonus. Then steal stuff cheaper then it gets you to research them.
And I probaly forgot some stuff.
@TMIT
Exactly, Saladin is not bad nor Great, but he is ok.
Zx Zero Zx
Deity
Ah forgot about the cheaper temples, but temples are cheap anyways. Now about civic switches, I will maybe make 2-3 large civic switches a game, and that is it. HR, Bureaucracy, Slavery, and OR or Theo is all you ever need to win a game. Think what it is is that you play extremely passive, and feel you need to win Lib to win. All you need to win at any level in Civ is land, it doesn't matter if you are some what backward. If you can whip/draft out enough units not even Deity AI can stop you.
Also diplo isn't needed to win on Deity ever. You can middle finger every single AI, and have the world hate you. All you need to do is not be completely backwards, and field a big stack to win. Trust me this is from experience, I could give a rats ass what the AI wants, unless it is beneficial to me I almost always tell them to screw themselves. There are a few AI you do need to be nicer to, but only after a certain point. The fair trade, resources trades, and religions boosts are way more than enough to keep the AI at pleased.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
Zx, that is just too too wrong.
Well, all that stuff you are telling one should do, you can see me doing in S&T. I have 13 or more deity games I've shadowed or hosted here in last 6 months. And there were all kinds of games and all kinds of warfare. Some very challenging, even without land. Almost all were victories. Although there are some better players out there, I think I do have some authority and experience.
Your claims may only be right in my HoF game (standard/deity/normal/domination). But HoF game is not about simply winning, winning is ensured through good starting position and land, it is about date.
Sorry to everyone for shameless self-propaganda.
Zx Zero Zx
Deity
I have no idea how you got that time for HoF, that start does not look like a good start for HoF to me. The surrounding land is ok, but there is no way to explode your tech.
But about not needing diplo I don't understand why it is wrong. I give the AI the middle finger on Deity all game, and still win with decent Dom times. Also I never said you were a bad player, you're just a lot more cautious than I am. For a long time now I have been playing for time not just winning. I have abandoned a lot of games that I know I can win, but that I won't get a good time on. You may be able to beat Deity consistently, but I am pretty sure you haven't played as many games as I have, and let me assure you you don't need to give a single frack about what the AI wants from you to win with good times. But for HoF you do need to do diplo so you can control when you want to go to war.
Zx Zero Zx
Deity
I support you, shakabrade.
diplo is very very important on Deity.
That is why I could careless what the AI wants, and just kill them.
vicawoo
Chieftain
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Bearman's the one who implied Saladin sucks because camel archer gambits suck, and I feel the very opposite.
How good spiritual is has been debated since the very beginning, so obviously any new arguments aren't going to break any new ground, but I think any spiritual leader is better than ok. That casual montezuma game from that immortal-deity player from 2 years ago (I think virusmonster) provided a very nice example of diplomacy abuse.
I think Saladin's better than Genghis, even though Genghis horse archer rushes exceptionally well. I'd like to hear who people think are about his level/slightly better than him.
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Also, saying that snowballing is different from accumulating a lot of small advantages is completely wrong. It's called snowballing because a small snowball rolls up more and more snow until it becomes a huge snow boulder (see cartoons).
And gamebreaking is different from game changing, in that gamebreaking implies it generates a huge advantage, which I never said.
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