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Camel Archer Useless ?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by wizard73, Dec 2, 2005.

  1. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    sorry I most probably don't understand the question properly...

    there is ton of leaders I would play rather then Saladin...

    it actually would be pretty tough where to start since the list would be pretty long...
    I would actually rather play any american leader then Saladin (and even them would be bottom at my preferred leaders list).
     
  2. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    He said Saladin is ok, but not good. Ok < good < civs like inca.

    If Saladin is ok, then he should be comparable to other ok civs, but I think overall he's better than any ok civs I can think of.
     
  3. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Diplo not important on Deity, now i've read everything here :lol:
    Nobody who says that plays difficult games, no way.
    Sally better than Genghis..well yip most likely, unless HA rushing = only option, which should be rare.
     
  4. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    then I will just bring some :popcorn:

    since this will definitely have the same potential as the endless "what is best UU, what is best UB, what is best civ" threads...

    maybe giving list of "OK" civs regarded by "someone" would be good start...
     
  5. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    For my play style it's unneeded. The small amount of resource trading, tech selling, and religion bonuses gives me more than enough bonus to be able to have enough of the AI like me to be able to tech broker. When you start conquering the world early you aren't going to have many AI like you anyways. Difficult games only come from difficult starting land, not the fact that you have Shaka or Monty on your back. You can deal with them, and wall them very successfully or even take them out with good land. With craptastic land you will struggle at walling them. Now granted with that craptastic of land you most likely aren't going to do well in that game anyways.


    Question do you guys consider begging 1 gold for 10 turns of peace treaties constantly to be diplo?
     
  6. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    I guess what we mean, you dun start "conquering the world" early on difficult Deity games normally..;)
     
  7. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    List made in 3 minutes :
    Lincoln, Hammurabi, Brennus, Churchill, Bismarck, Alexander, Kubilai Khan, Stalin, Ragnar.
     
  8. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    Somehow we went from a Civ5 player accidentally necro'ing a 7-year-old thread about Camel Archers to debating leader tiers. And each post seemed a reasonable step at the time it was made...
     
  9. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Well that is start I wouldn't normally play for being too good and civilization I wouldn't play for being too powerful. So there's the result. I'd also like to say that domination was unintentional, since I wanted to win conquest. Yeah, and lost Lib by one turn superearly. I have whipped all cities as much as I could, have liberated all cities I could (dropping my score for about 100k in single turn) just to avoid domination, and then Persia peacevassaled to WvO and thresholds changed so I accidentally won. If I was going for domination, it would have been achieved some 20-30 turns before. But don't care since this was my first attempt with decent map. SPI had great deal in achieving that date, but naturally WCs had a lead role. And game was without diplo since my technological and war stomping position was never challenged (I believe around 1500 base score 1 AD and 300bpt.


    I play to win every game. And since I am better at it with each game, I am challenging myself more and more and so I am forced to learn faster. Don't believe I have reached 100 civ4 games in my whole life.

    Just wanted to add that I still like you despite our little disagreements.:D

    There's much more diplo than just beg 1 gpt. You want to be friendly to work around WFYABTA, you want to know who will get DoWed and maybe help it to happen. Or you want to make two advanced AIs stop trading with each other so they don't run away. Switch someone going culture from Free Speech to slow him down. Gift city to AI so he gets more bordering tiles with psycho AI while also gaining diplo points, and many more.


    Edit: Totally agree with BiC's list.
     
  10. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    Hmm.......
    I think I've read that a thousand times myself though.... but that was on the OTHER side of the forum....
     
  11. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    I agree with Zero that SPI is very good, but it's definately not gamebreaking after my experiences. Switching Civics a lot is a great advantage I experienced in Replay #4, running Caste + PAC while timing the whips with Slavery + OR / Theo is awesome, being able to even run Serfdom at some time is awesome, all of the examples given can be translated into a big save of hammer and some diplo-points that SPI offers, but:

    One can do extremely well with well timed GAs too, and some other traits are simply very powerful on their own aswell. Experiencing the true power of FIN in Replay #5 was astonishing me, as was experiencing the power of ORG in the games where I played Rome.

    I think I'll stick with the opinion that "traits are only traits" , UU's are a lot more important, having War Chariots or Checkers is a way more powerful than anything, because those launch snowballs very early, the traits are quite well balanced imo, not having useless PRO, AGG or CHA in mind, but the more powerful ones, like FIN, SPI or PHI.

    Btw.: WB Obsolete :) .
     
  12. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Inca is its own tier.

    But then you have the obvious candidates like Egypt, Persia, India, Dutch (water map)

    You also have good trait combos without broken UU/UB (but sometimes still good ones) like Ottoman, some USA, France, England, Zulu, Spain, Mali

    Sal is just after those tiers. Yes, he's spiritual, but he's arguably the weakest spiritual in restricted. 6 of the SPI leaders hail from the above civs (Mali, Spain, Egypt and India), but it's hard to put Sal ahead of the others like Justinian (who has better 2nd trait by a little and better uniques) or Montezuma (who has a much better UB and a niche but more consistently useful UU). It is precisely spiritual that gives Sal anything at all, but it doesn't push him above other spiritual, cheese UU, or strong trait combos on reasonably good civs. Therefore, he is OK.
     
  13. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    There's loads of good Civs, so yep..Sally is just okay for games where you dun want easy going.
    Other "okay" leaders for me would be Kublai, Giggles, Sitting Bull, Monty, Chinese...and you could make a case for all of those being slightly better than Sally. For example SB has barb defense guaranteed, Chinese have good starting techs and UU, Monty Sac. Altar :)

    "Good" leaders would be for example all French, and Sally cannot reach those.
     
  14. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    What makes a Deity game difficult for you? Your neighbors or the land quality? Because I am much much much less affected by my neighbors than I am on how good or crappy the land is. If the land isn't good enough you're going to struggle to even play passively, and get Lib for Cuirs, Riffles, or Cannons.

    I see, you consider that start good? Wow, I would have to say it's pretty middle of the road when it comes to starts. But the surrounding land isn't awful, lots of green land means good long term commerce. But there's no Gems or Gold from what I saw.

    I definitely have way more games played than you if you have less than 100 games total as I have been playing since the day it was released.

    I think the biggest problem with our disagreement is that I probably do a lot of things that you guys consider to be Diplo. This is the same problem as what is an "ok" leader. x3
     
  15. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Well, can be many things. Bad land surely makes developing on Deity hardest, no questions.
    I dun see where you are coming from here Zero, we all know rushing early isn't very common on Deity if you want to be in decent shape later?
    Or are we *only* talking about Quechies and other stuffs here now, that reduce diff. so much?
    Diplo is not only avoiding wars, it's also getting trades.
     
  16. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    Nah the only early rushes I ever use now are Horse Acher or Catapult rushes. With the Catapult rushes I can usually take out someone one 100% before Fued, after Fued it is all about whipping as many units out as possible to get a quick vassal to allow me to sling shot myself to Eng or Guilds depending on the AIs tech situation. But basically I never actually stop my early wars. I just go into dormant periods to whip out more units. I am not sure if you ever saw one of my posts in one of those giant threads that are stickied, but I posted a photo of one of my average games where I had around 500 turns whip anger in all of my cities but my capital on normal speed.

    I guess most of the diplo I do I do with my vassals, or I consider it to just be tech brokering. When I think of diplo I think of agreeing to the AIs demands, and trying to keep them all at pleased. I guess my form of diplo would be called the middle finger, and big metal stick diplomacy. :3
     
  17. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Emperor

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    ok. Since, no one has corrected this yet for BTS. I will.

    In Civ4 vanilla, the Camel Archer was like you have stated.
    In BTS, the Camel Archer only has a 15% withrawl rate.

    To me, the CA is of marginal benefit over the standard Knight. As many have stated in other posts in the forum too, Knight rushes in general, just ar not done too much, because the techs are off the main path to Liberalism. So, CA rushes would be too, in most cases.
    I did find one exemption to this rule.
    I created a custom game starting at Renaissance Era.
    At that point, one starts the game with 2 settlers, 2 LB, 1 worker and 1 Explorer.
    Since, no resourses have been hooked up yet, and none are needed for the CA, then one can chop out a few and conquer a close AI before they build Castles. However, since most of us start on Ancient Era, this situation rarely comes up.

    The discussion turned to leaders. I too am not found of Saladin. His traits don't seem to mesh well with his UU or UB. If he was Lincoln [CHR/PHI], then his CA would gain xp faster and his early specialists would gain great people faster during the pre-caste system time period, to make the UB more beneficial.
    Some could argue for Pericles [CRE/PHI] or Louis [CRE/IND] too, espicially for cultural victories.

    So, there are better leader traits that can benefit the empire, than what was provided.
    In mods that add some of the ancient middle eastern structures as wonders, such as Petra, Gobekli Tepe and others, then one could possibly consider an unnamed [IND/PHI] leader mentioned in another thread to further improve the options available to Arabia.
     
  18. TheRealCzar

    TheRealCzar Chieftain

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    Spiritual combined with protective is very good for drafting, not quite as good as spi/agg Monty. Any leader is ok if the map treats him well but regardless of your preferred strategy, there's probably somebody better at it than Sal.

    Playing as Arabia in a PBEM, making the most of drafting and cheap temples (Sankore+mineret ftw). I also managed to leverage the UB to run a priest to get a prophet before religion spread to my capital.

    What is the advantage Sal gives to Espionage ?
     
  19. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    It's the same advantaged conferred by any spiritual civ when it comes to espionage. All of the missions require you to be in said civic or religion, which usually has a fairly large cost (anarchy). But, with SPI you can beg for 1 gold to get a 10 turn treaty with an AI or two, flip into a heathen religion, force the AI into that religion, then switch back. Instead of 2 turns of anarchy for that you have 0...and the AI suddenly doesn't mind if you declare war on its former "friend" and might take a bribe to do so also.

    You can also do crap like forcing AI out of slavery or messing with other civics to impact diplo between AI as well.
     
  20. Um the Muse

    Um the Muse King

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    I wonder if the Camel Archer would be more worthwhile in a no-tech game?

    In my no-tech games, I feel that getting guilds is more important than going for liberalism for the huge boost in production. Now, I could be wrong, I haven't really mastered the art of bulbing. For all I know, I would be better off by getting chemistry from liberalism.

    If I'm right, though, this might be a place for the Camel Archer (as well as the Cataphract) to shine.
     

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