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Cameron vs Juncker

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by really, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. really

    really Deity

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    http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-27955695
    What is David Cameron up to?
    He lost the argument long ago but doesn't seem to have accepted it.

    I get that he doesn't like Juncker but he hasn't gained anything from his protestations - he has only set himself up for failure.
     
  2. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Cameron is total moron as far as EU politics is concerned; this only proves it. Right at the start he basically burned all the bridges to new EU members (who are normally pretty pro-British) when he proposed to slash development funding for poorer members and stepped up anti-'Eastern' European rhetoric; then he peed of all his ideological allies in Europe by refusing to compromise on anything and strongarming everybody to give Britain even more extraordinary advantages; then he decided to call an EU-exit referendum, and now he's blackmailing literally everybody to ignore the results of democratic parliamentary elections.

    I'll be blunt, but FRAK him - who cares what this clown does? I had hoped that the presence of Lib Dems in his govt. would serve as a positive influence against Tory europhobic exceses, but the Lib Dems have instead done nothing to rein the Tories in and have thus committed a collective political suicide.

    (And BTW, I don't think that Juncker is a super-great candidate at all. I'd have liked Verhofstadt or even Schulz as EC president since they seem to be a bit more assertive personalities; but the election has ended as it ended and Juncker should be given a chance to assemble a majority in the EP for his candidacy).
     
  3. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Cameron is another horribly bad choice for a lead politician, but at least he likely is far less corrupted than Juncker, cause the latter seems to be quite the trojan horse for the collapse around in the last 5 years (he pretty much signaled it 5 years ago, as the leader of the fiscal checks working with the POS previous pm here).
    At least Cameron is closer to a 'usefull idiot', next to a direhawk like Juncker.
     
  4. Terxpahseyton

    Terxpahseyton King, Warrior, Prophet, Magician, Lover

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    I highly respect the personality Juncker managed to convey. I first became really aware of him after he took part in a philosophical show on German TV and I highly liked the guy since this show. He just seems very thought-full and considerate. I am not sure if he is really less assertive than Schulz. I only know that he doesn't care for advertising assertiveness to the media as Schulz does.
    I have almost no idea about his actual political goals though. Which is not so much my fault I feel as it is the failing of both candidates to actually argue with actual measures during the election campaign. Just know that he is "pro-EU" and for more EU and on the one hand a moderate on the other one someone who at least personally does not shy away from bigger reforms. For instance I recall him saying something in favor of Euro bonds. Which makes him anything but the classic conservative.
     
  5. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    When it becomes serious, you have to lie.
     
  6. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    Yup. I agree.

    Poor man! He can't seem to help it.
     
  7. Quackers

    Quackers The Frog

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    Cameron is wasting time.
    Just give us the referendum Dave.
     
  8. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    I'm rather amused by how the anti-EU rhetoric is mainly based on (somewhat justly) how the EU isn't democratic enough and far away from the voters, but when it comes to chosing the EU President, then suddendly the most vocal eurosceptic like Cameron decide that we should ignore voters' input in election and chose another guy than the one from the main elected party...
     
  9. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    OK. But not until we can be sure that the electorate won't vote for leaving.

    What kind of disaster would that be?
     
  10. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Indeed.

    You know, the irony is so rich that one would think the British media would be mocking Cameron day and night for that.

    But wait, this is Britain - nobody except Guardian on the 12th page dares to say a single positive thing about the EU. The neverending europhobic media massage in Britain can be compared only to what the Russian media do with respect to Ukraine - but that, Russia is not a democracy...

    Sigh.
     
  11. Mise

    Mise isle of lucy

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    I think the point about "democracy in the EU" is more that a rather large section of the EU voted for anti-EU parties, and perhaps a majority of the EU population would prefer less EU federalism. And yet the man elected is an avowed EU federalist. I'm very much pro-EU and anti-Cameron, but I think he has a point here. Does Juncker really represent the will of the people in the most recent EU elections?

    Further, if people who are not racist or anti-semitic or xenophobic or anti-EU are quite happy with the status quo and don't really want a federal Europe (such as myself), who do we vote for? If we vote for the mainstream parties, they will put a federalist like Juncker in charge of the EU. So who do we vote for? The choice presented to us is federalism or out. Many rational people might choose out.

    I think Juncker is a poor choice for EC president, and I don't think he represents what most people in Europe want. I think it would have been wise for EU leaders to have picked a more neutral, moderate candidate, one who was more aligned with the results of the most recent European election.

    Of course, everything Winner said about Cameron is correct. He's simply bad at politics, and has no understanding of strategy or diplomacy whatsoever. Complete muppet. If he had even the slightest clue about how to conduct international diplomacy, he'd have got far more out of the EU than he has. As it is, he's left us in a really quite untenable position. Let's hope Ed Milliband can do a better job.
     
  12. really

    really Deity

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    Juncker (as flawed a candidate as he might be) does represent the will of the people of Europe though. He is the candidate of the largest grouping in Parliament. He is as legitimate as Cameron or Enda Kenny or Merkel.
     
  13. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    ^That group though (promoting Juncker) still has something around 30%? (i think, but it can't be significantly more than that; it might even be a bit smaller). Let alone that Euro party groups form out of the linking of the country parties, which obviously are different to each other. Not sure where the BriCons are in the euro parliament groups, but i would expect their mps to be normally part of the Con/Popular/OtherEuphemism party there.
     
  14. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    There was a surge in eurosceptic votes, so yeah the new president should take it into account, but it shouldn't be confused with "a majority against Europe". It may happens someday (and more because national government tend to blame "Europe" when they screw up rather than because Europe actually create problems), but it's not today.
     
  15. Mise

    Mise isle of lucy

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    Legitimate in the sense that his selection and (presumed) presidency is within the constitutional law of the EU, sure. I wouldn't call "constitutional legitimacy" the same as "democratic legitimacy" though. Our Queen has constitutional legitimacy, in that her position as "head of state" is entirely within the UK's constitution, but there's no democratic legitimacy to that.

    I would call Juncker as democratically legitimate as Gordon Brown.

    @Kyriakos: Cameron pulled out of the main Centre Right bloc in the EU and went into the "anti-EU" camp instead. If he had stayed within the main centre right bloc (from which Juncker was selected), he might have been able to block his selection. Cameron's belligerence and ineptitude has made it impossible for the UK to advance its interests in Europe.
     
  16. Terxpahseyton

    Terxpahseyton King, Warrior, Prophet, Magician, Lover

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    He has also been endorsed by the social democrats. That gives him over 50% of the parliament's support.
     
  17. really

    really Deity

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    I don't have the numbers to hand but they are far from a majority.

    One of Cameron's earlier moves in the EP was to take the conservatives out of the EPP (the grouping of Juncker and Merkel) to form their own group which has gained some other members.
     
  18. uppi

    uppi Deity

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    Which is one of the reason he is in this mess right now. By leaving the EPP he has lost almost all influence on the politics of this group.
     
  19. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

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    Cameron doesn't actually want to achieve anything with this move, as far as I can see, apart from working on his image in the UK. Seeing Europe mostly as a PR thing is probably not helpful to British attempts to actually change anything.
     
  20. Mise

    Mise isle of lucy

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    Well even if this is a PR ploy for the home market, it makes very little strategic sense from that angle too. He has promised a referendum if he wins the next election, but will campaign for staying in the EU (along with Labour and the Lib Dems). His main argument for staying within the EU is that it is mostly good for the UK, and the bits that are bad for the UK can be changed through negotiation.

    However, his abject failure at negotiating positive changes for the UK, culminating in this diplomatic disaster, only fuels the belief in the "out" camp that it is impossible to change the EU from within, and that it's better to just junk it and form bilateral deals with other nations individually.

    So if he is using the EU to help him at home, he's doing a terrible job. Better to positively engage with the EU and prove to people at home that the EU can be shaped in the right way.

    I've said before, the past 4 years has been such a wasted opportunity. When Cameron came to power, the EU was in an almost unprecedented situation, where the majority of European governments, including most of its major economies, were centre-right and aligned broadly with the UK Conservatives economically. It was a fantastic opportunity for Cameron to push the UK's centre-right economic philosophy and reframe the EU as a force for economic liberalisation, to complete its mission of the 4 freedoms, and to herald a new era of centre-right co-operation within Europe. Instead, he has isolated himself from the rest of the centre-right bloc and isolated the UK from Europe. It was a huge wasted opportunity for Cameron to advance his agenda, silence is anti-EU critics, diminish anti-EU sentiment across the UK and on the back of it secure a majority in 2015.

    Total muppet.
     

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