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Can early domination lead to faster Science Victories?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by fallout3dc, Jul 13, 2014.

  1. fallout3dc

    fallout3dc Warlord

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    I normally play peaceful and have a good setup for my cities. However, what if I were to take a capital or two before turn 100? Would that snowball for science, or would I be better just going for a 4 city peaceful tradition game with early NC?
     
  2. SULOMON

    SULOMON Mod Civs Best Civs.

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    It wouldn't help much for snowballing. And the warmonger penalty will prevent research agreements so it isn't worth it.
     
  3. justaquestion

    justaquestion Chieftain

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    ive found when i war early it hinders my science. I usually try to war after ive gotten 4-5 cities with libraries and the national college and before universities. Or after universities and before public schools. I try to war in between science buildings and wonders.
     
  4. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    Like justaquestion said, you'll want to time it so that it doesn't delay the construction of any of your key National Wonders, but I would say that some expansionist war-mongering can absolutely help a science victory.

    I'm in the middle of an Emperor Bismark game right now, and I just finished a war for Paris and London that has me leading in research. Not only did it greatly increase my population, but Napoleon was nice enough to build 5 World Wonders for me in Paris, Lyon is positioned next to a mountain, and the money I earned went straight into two Research Agreements. I'm in control of half my continent, standing first in line at a veritable buffet of juicy victory conditions, and it's only the Middle Ages.
     
  5. glasgowgsxr750

    glasgowgsxr750 Chieftain

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    I'd say it could help. just depends on how you time it, I've done it with the songhai loads of times but s haas been said before, best to wait till you have at least 5 cities or more (I had about 8 when I did it, always keep some workers free so u can improve nearby tiles for extra production, extra cash can help too.... fortunately not a prob for the songhai)
     
  6. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    Warmongering early to take cities is hard. You have to put a lot of hammers into an army, and the AI can support a bigger one then you can. Also, taking cities is quite hard before siege units become available, then you have to build them, and if the war drags out it can start really hurting you. It's a gamble I'd say, and even if you succeed it will jack up your warmonger score if you know a few other ppl. Early puppets are also annoying as you need to micromanage to make the most out of your cities in the beginning. You can't control their growth without some careful landscape sculpting, and before trade posts (much later) this basically means leaving them unimproved. A captured capital can be bad--They can't build military, they will grow uncontrollably, which often means it'll stunt your own capital and cause happiness drains. Might work for a start if you intended domination but probably wouldn't help with a science victory. I tried it once with Shoshone with 3 early CB's from ruins and stole eithiopia's capital. But even knowing just 2 other AI this caused a string of DOWs and made me delay NC, and the city grew so fast it nerfed my capital--it was a frustrating game.

    Now: This doesn't mean early war can't help your science, but happiness is so short and puppets kinda inefficient for science. So really, early war where you take cities before you can handle them is really the problem. However, I've had success with early economic wars. Just don't worry about taking cities, declare war on some neighbor before you know hardly anyone (almost no warmonger hit). Then steal their starting workers, pillage their land, and keep the war going, taking settlers, destroying trade routes, and getting more free workers over the course of time. The super-early workers gives you a huge early growth boost as AI get workers before anyone else including CS on high levels and it removes their advantage and gives it to you. It also cripples a neighbor and helps give you more room. This strategy is more effective the greater the AI advantage as they'll be throwing workers and settlers and trade routes out almost immediately on immortal/deity so you have a lot of free stuff to capture. Pillaging will also give you gold. On a deity game as Aztecs I built 2 jags plus my starter (a tiny opportunity cost as they were also my scouts) and laid into my closest neighbor with some hit-and-run tactics. I stole 2 workers, a settler, pillaged a trade route, got a lot of experience, and pillaged 5 tiles. By the end of the war I had 3 free workers, about 200 in stolen gold (about half a library or settler), had 3 high-lvl jags, and had set back my neighbor giving me enough time to take my time placing 4 cities. It was great. Best part was I got virtually no warmonger hit as I DOWed only knowing him. I qickly met everyone else but they don't care if you are fighting someone only about DOWs and taking cities so I got no warmonger score for the act except with the target. He was even a friend later because I didn't take any cities. It was hilarious.
     
  7. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    I can say for a fact that an early rush most definitely helps your science, but couldn't tell you if it can give you an earlier SV because I usually take a diplomatic victory first. It sets you back on science at first, but spies can make up the difference in renaissance, and then you have an experienced army and a puppet empire to show for it. And the puppets generate culture and faith (not just science), which can be used to generate science.
     
  8. rawrtrav

    rawrtrav Chieftain

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    If you're going for the optimal science victory, you shouldn't have time to be building military units anyway. When I'm going for complete science, I'll have my scout that hopefully upgrades to an archer, my original warrior and maybe another 1 or 2 archers until I hit Musketmen (Normally around 500AD - 700AD). So no, I wouldn't say early domination helps at all.
     
  9. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    A little grander perspective: first, if you capture an AI capital, that's the equivalent of an NC right there. Next, how much do you lose if you delay libraries by, say, 20 turns? 10bpt, maybe? For a total of 200 beakers? You'll be making more than that in one turn by industrial. You get no domino effect from researching tech simply for the sake of researching tech. Next, you've got spying working against you in that the worse off you are science-wise, the better spying you get. Stealing one tech can net you more than 200 beakers easily. Next, your puppets are generating culture, and culture means earlier policies like rationalism and scholasticism. And faith, which means you can purchase more missionaries(just one missionary with interfaith dialogue can net you 200 beakers) and GS.

    The catch I find is that an early rush usually means I'm going up the honor tree. The honor tree doesn't help you with science.
     
  10. Xiao Xiong

    Xiao Xiong Prince

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    Let's say you spawn with 2 other civs on your continent. If you can wipe out one and knock the other down to city state status before astronomy, then you won't face many penalties for war mongering. Be peaceful as pie after that and everybody will love you as you sit there enjoying your blood soaked ill gotten gains.
     
  11. lindsay40k

    lindsay40k Emperor

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    Just bribe Shaka or Atilla to join in, let them take the last city, and then liberate it. I'm occupying London & York, but because I resuscitated Nottingham Elizabeth is DoF me even after five more capital grabs.
     
  12. lindsay40k

    lindsay40k Emperor

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    Not directly, no, but a GG here and there can be a godsend when you want to start getting Factories or a nuclear deterrent or whatnot and the resources are just out of reach. And the extra XP policy can enable you to milk a CS for those GGs & get some Logistics Ranged Xbows to stuff anyone who thinks about invading.
     
  13. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Don't get me wrong, the Honor tree is most definitely helpful. It just doesn't contribute directly to getting a SV on an earlier turn number.
     
  14. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

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    It depends on whether you destroy the library in the captured city or not. If you do then it will hamper your science, if not it shouldn't. If you only go after capitals you should be in a good position scientifically.
    In regards to warmonger score try and get folk to DOW your target or your target to DOW everyone(you will be DOWing on the same turn so it wont cost you). If you can't get allies then I've found you can usually get away with 1 DOW and 1 city capture(no retakes if the AI captures it back) and the AI will eventually forgive you.
     

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