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Can only whites be racists and is Africa no place for whites?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Squonk, Oct 5, 2019.

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Can only whites be racists and oppressors? Are whites out of place in Africa?

  1. Only white people can be racists and opressors

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Not only white people can be racists and opressors

    23 vote(s)
    71.9%
  3. Africa is no place for whites - they should all leave

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Africa is a place for its inhabitants regardless their skin colour

    24 vote(s)
    75.0%
  5. The structure of land and capital ownership should fit racial, ethnic, religious ratio of populace

    3 vote(s)
    9.4%
  6. The structure of land, capital ownership doesn't have to fit racial, ethnic, religious ratio

    15 vote(s)
    46.9%
  7. No action should be taken regarding the land ownership in South Africa

    4 vote(s)
    12.5%
  8. A non-state organisation should be established for buying land and distributing it among black popul

    1 vote(s)
    3.1%
  9. The state should confiscate the land and distribute it among black people with full compensation

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. The state should cofiscate the land and distribute it among black people with partial compensation

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. The state should confiscate the land and distribute it among black people without compensations

    2 vote(s)
    6.3%
  12. The state should confiscate the land and make its ownership according to racial ratio - full compens

    3 vote(s)
    9.4%
  13. The state should confiscate the land and distribute it according to the racial ratio - partial compe

    1 vote(s)
    3.1%
  14. The state should confiscate the land and distribute it according to the racial ratio - no compensati

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  15. I like frogs.

    15 vote(s)
    46.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Squonk

    Squonk Chieftain

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    Recently, a comment by my friend at facebook sparked.a discussion. It conecerned a radical opposition party in South Africa, which supports taking land from white people without compensation and dividing it between black people. The former leader of this party was reknown for chanting a song „Kill the Boer”.

    The two questions that arose was that some people think that:
    1) Only whites can be racists and oppressors, non-whites are never racists or oppress.
    2) Whites do not belong in Africa (which is so silly not only because of that they are present in South Africa for several centuries, the Amharic language in Ethiopia was brought by immigrants from Yemen, and the population of Africa north to Sahara is indigenously mostly white, from Morocco to Egypt).

    I am quite amazed of people actually holding those views. I find them utterly racist. But, well, they think I am racist for thinking that these ideas is racist.

    So this thread is
    1) To check, for my own curiousity, if there actually is a significant part of people that would support such views
    2) To present some comments about this argument. I toyed with an idea to write a mail about i to a president to one college, because the lady I had the most trouble with (Yorslu) is an assistant there. and I find it horrible what she said, and how, and that she wants to indoctrinate her students in this way. But I decided against it, for several reasons, so instead, I am going to post this thread.

    I believe that even when you have a noble idea, and you fight for it, you get attached to the fight itself, and to whom you are fighting against, and forget the initial grand idea. It's a matter of force of habit, a matter of phantom pains. People were fighting the Church for the freedom for religion - so they continue to fight it sometimes when they actually achieved it already, because they are simply used to treating it as an enemy, and this time they will attack it even it it was being the attacked side. The same, Jews were a repressed minority, and thus one had to support them against other religions and nations. But some got used to their previous status and do not see that, in Israel, they became an oppressive majority; women were oppressed by men, and still are (just like there's still racism and antisemitism and Christian fundamentalism, just much much less), so some feminists would demonize men in any case, just because their movement grew fighting against the patriarchate. To sum it up: it's easy to exagerrate in such a fate, out of habit, in a knee-jerk reaction.

    My personal opinion is that while, undoubtly, the white population, if treated as a mass, is responsible for decades and centuries of mistreating the black population of this land, it is wrong and racist to make laws based on someone’s skin colour, it is wrong to blame someone for the crimes of his ancestors, and domination of one ethnic or racial group in some field is not necessarily something wrong, if it doesn’t lead to discrimination of the others. Taking the land indiscriminately, even if one can not prove it was taken from specific people, or if it was bought by someone legally in good faith, just because this owner is not black, seems unacceptable to me. I also doubt the possibility of rectifying past deeds. And while I was accused by some people of „justifying” the land theft that happened there, it’s not the case. I do condemn it. I just think it’s not possible to outdo a long historical proces without a substantial harm. This harm is the individual harm of the white people who’d lose their land, property and fatherland, but also, the unavoidable struggle and fight that such radical measure (confiscating property without compensation) would bring. Some had another opinion in this matter, and I’ll point out what’s the problem in what, and how, one person wrote in this subject, mentioning the opinions of others as well.

    1) The content
    The lady in question (Yorslu) supported this radical move, with clear racist and collective responsibility overtones. She said that the whites should’ve sold the land and moved to the cities or emmigrated to Britain or the Netherlands. She didn’t have a problem with her friend saying things that „whites don’t belong in Africa”, and „defended” her against criticism. Her aforementioned statement seems to suggest she agrees it’d be good if the people whose ancestors lived in South Africa for several centuries just left for Europe, because of her skin colour. That’s the equivalent of „Blacks fo not belong in Europe”, and she’s proud to show her support for such claims in her classes at your college. She didn’t also condemn the words of her friends that only whites can be racists. And while the racists attitudes against white people are, both historically and today, undoubtly and very less often than against black people, it’s clearly not true that such attitudes are not present at all and are not possible.

    The lady in question (Yorslu), while discussing with me, managed to call me racist, fascist, sexist, and suggested I’m antisemite too. And it’s not only about me. Let me describe it.

    RACIST – I am one because I actually oppose judging people on skin colour and think that any form of that is wrong.

    FASCIST – I am not sure why am I one.

    SEXIST – because, being treated harshly by this lady, I replied also (though much less, let me describe it below) harshly, as well as to this other person (Disha; who claimed whites don’t belong in Africa), even though I didn’t even remember her, I didn’t see if this was a woman or a man. I was discussing with the lady in question (lets call her Yorslu), my friend (lets call him Frocom), and their friend (lets call her Disha), as well as a common friend of me and my friend, who was also critical (lets call him Nocai). Disha wasn’t very active in the beginning so I didn’t took much notice of her, and, not being an English native speaker, I can not say if her name is a male or female name for sure, anyway. In any case, I was treating my friend Frocom a bit less harsh than he deserved, which is because he’s my friend for many years and I didn’t want a personel quarrel with him. However, Yorslu attributed it to him being male, herself being female and judged I’m sexist.

    I am discussing opinions, not people; the rase and gender of Yorslu or her friend Disha is irrelevant. If I criticised her, it’s because of what she said, not because of whom she is. This can not be said about Yorslu, who attacked me for being white (whitesplaining, typical rationale white people use, blinded by my whiteness), for being a man (the accusation of being sexist, saying things like that I’m „waving my dick around”), and for being Polish (which I’ll mention in a moment).

    ANTISEMITE – Yorslu said: „and I’ve been to Poland, know a little something about the normalized racism and anti Semitism - now in law with prohibition on teaching the crimes of Poles against Jews in the wake of Nazi defeat/ of that country. Your views don’t surprise me. They are likely mild in the context of the general tenor of your country when it comes to bigotry. I do pity you.”

    While I do agree antisemitism in Poland was, and stil lis, a problem, and I find the poltics of the current government, notabene supported by the current government of the USA, really wrong in many cases, describing entire country as racist and antisemitic, is, well, racist. It i salso painful on a personal level. My grandfather was a swarthy man, allegedly because of an Armenian descent of his mother, but, coming from a city which had a large (perhaps a third of the population) Jewish community (and no Armenian one, althouth there were Armenians in the region), there could have been other reasons to that. He experienced problems during the war, not only because of him losing two sons, but also because of that he had to be proving he’s not a Jew and we still have an attestation from a priest that he’s not one, which he needed to survive. During the antisemitic events of 1968, he was subject to antisemitic attacks from his neighbours. Having pulmonia, he was weakened with stroke, one of the factors leading to which was perhaps the shouts of his neighbours, who’d stand before his door and shout through it, urging him to go to Israel. When I mentioned this story in an Arab country I worked in, I experienced trouble myself. Therefore, ironically, even if my grandfather was not of Jewish descent, I think I could claim he was, more or less, a victim of antisemitism. And I did mention some of that during this discussion, which didn’t stop Yorslu from suggesting that I’m racist, because Poland is racist and antisemitic overall.

    I think this is a great insensitivity. And lack of knowledge too. Poland, before the war, had the largest Jewish community in the world, after the USA. Most of Jews in the world come from the Jews that lived in the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. Poland before and during world was two had Jewish MPs, ministers, generals, famous singers, poets. It was all destroyed by Germans during the war. And obviously there was part of Polish population that helped them out of hatred towards Jews or out of greed. But, nevertheless, Poland had no colaborationist government, like most of the occupied countries. It had no SS forces, unlike occupied nations, and even Russians and British. As the only occupied country, it had death penalty for helping Jews, and yet the largest nation among Righteous among the Nations at Yad Vashem is Poles. And while the pressure on Jews to leave in 1968 was a horrible thing, and few Jews remain, Jews are not discriminated against. Since the fall of communism, there have been vice prime ministers of Jewish descent (L. Dorn), speakers of the parliament (M. Borowski), ministers of foreign affairs (Geremek, Rotfeld, Meller), the current first lady of Poland is partly of Jewish origin. When it comes to black people, the local black community is mostly people who came for studies, football players and some recent immigrants. Poland had 2 at one time (Godson and Munyama), and currently has 1 black MPs (Munyama). So, in fact, while the percentage of African American members of the Congress is a bit lower than the African American ration of American socjety, in Poland it’s much higher, and, moreover, those people were clearly elected by white voters, while in USA, they had their own communities to support them. In recent years, the currently ruling party and its media were attacking Muslim Arabs a lot, which resulted in increase in hostility against all foreigners. It’s horrible and regretable, but it’s far from the situation that Yorslu paints, in a way clearly influenced by racist, anti-Polish sentyment. She did, later on, say she didn’t mean all Poles or all white people, but she went on to claim that teaching about Holocaust in Poland (or perhaps, but she didn’t state it well, about participation of some Poles in it) was illegal. It is not the case, and it just shows ignorance in this field.

    2) The form
    Yorslu used a massively offensive language. Leaving aside aforementioned intellectual slurs of calling me racist, sexist, fascist, objectifying people of colour etc, let me quote the language of her in a semi-public discussion, mentioning her working at a college and in fact saying she’ll be showing this discussion on her seminar, which, together with her claim that that’s the way they talk in her city, indicate she doesn’t find this kind of language inappropriate – even in front of the students.

    „It’s mind boggling”, „loons”, „[her and Disha, the lady who wants to purge Africa of white people] light years beyond [yours truly] in intelligence and education. fudge you, little man.”; „*******”, „so fudge you again”. „shut your ass. Your explanation is bullfeathers. You think because you write some stupid nonsense I just accept it? Please. Just stop waving your dick around. You wouldn’t know truth if it bit you in the ass. Piss off”, „you think you know a lot but don’t know ****. Me offended by a dumb ass racist like you? How is that possible? You are hilariously ignorant.” „hey go fudge yourself small man. You looking to be insulted too? Who the fudge even asked your ignorant ass to chime in. Go back to your incel circle jerk” (this thing was not directed at me, but to Nocai); „too bad that you have reproduced. Ugh” (to Nocai); „disgusting” (after comparing me to imperialists raping women of colour); „fudge off”, „****ed up”,

    She also „liked” the post which suggested she should rip my head off and **** inside.

    Much of those slurs are of sexually explicit nature: ass, *******, waving penis, incel circle jerk, fudge you, ****ed up. It’s not only intimidation, but also a mild form of sexual harassment.

    Obviously, confronted with such wall of hatred and sluring, I did criticise Yorslu, and harshly, but not using the same kind of language. I did say, for example, and I stand with this opinion: „Please include your latest comments in what you're going to show in your seminar. I judge you not basing on your gender, or your rase. I don't care. I judge you on what you're written. And I don't know you, perhaps it's only this discussion, perhaps you're a nice and intelligent person overall, but, if I was supposed to judge you basing on this discussion, I'd say you're an offensive, fanatical, bigoted, blind, ignorant third rate pseudo-intellectual,” and I did, in the end, suggest her to carry a portable sludgwork with herself for the times she gets angry, because of the gutter language she’s been using, Most of the time, however, I was even more civil, just saying she’s amazing, interesting, astonishing and just calling her my cultural friend etc.

    Yorslu, participating in an online discussion under her real name, and mentioning her work at her college, represents it, in her name. If she wrote something under an alias or had she not mentioned her academic work, it would be less of a problem. What scares me the most is that she sees no problem in the vulgar language she is using and she wants to present it to her students. Also, she finds no problem with racism, if it’s directed against white people. And apparently, that’s what she’s teaching. It’s a major problem. Above all, however, I think Yorslu needs an anger management course, a rase equality course, and to listen to Katie Melua’s Spiderweb song repeatedly, both to relax and to listen to the wise lyrics.

    (I'll remove a bit here not to make this college too easily recognisable).

    I would not expect an apology from mrs Yorslu. But, for the sake of the education of the students, and for the sake of the prestige of her college, it'd be good to try to convince her not to use this kind of language, not to attack the traits of people she discusses that this person is not responsible for (being white, being Polish, being male), not to accuse people of everything she can think of, not to display clearly racist attitudes towards great masses of people, which, apparently, comes from holding a false view, expressed frankly by a person she defended during this discussion, that only white people can oppress, that only white people can be racist. I do believe that this kind of behaviour it completely unacceptable. I can not judge the overall integrity of mrs Yorslu, as I only know her from this one discussion. I didn’t read her works, which perhaps are valuable, I didn’t attend her lectures, which, perhaps, ar interesting and moderate (although it doesn’t seem so judging on her declaration she wasnts to use this conversation during her seminar). But I think that the behaviour of mrs Yorslu, unacceptable in this discussion, may be a sign of a wider problem, and as I do not want people to learn at your college that Poland is a land of normalised racism, that racism is only a white problem, that white people do not belong in Africa (the two later opinions are the ones of a friend of mrs Yorslu, Disha, which she didn’t condemn for them, but, au contraire, defended).

    Personally, I was afraid to send this letter to this college. The level of mrs Yorslu's blatant agressiveness and lack of self-control makes me believe that she’d try to take revenge on me for informing her college of her regrettable behaviour. Anyway, I do not really want to cause anyone trouble, I just think that, if that's what the level of discussion in USA is, if that's what the American "left-wing" "intellectuals" teach at USA colleges, then God help us, and well, I see there's a left-wing uber-Trumpism there too.
     
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  2. bernie14

    bernie14 Filter Manipulator

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    All in all you are a very dying race
    Placing trust upon a cruel world
    You never had the things you thought you should have had
    And you'll not get them now
    And all the while in perfect time
    Your tears are falling on the ground....
     
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  3. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    Hypothetical Alien Invasion Commander to his Lieutenant in Orbit Around Earth:

    "We have studied this species' media and records - they conveniently put it all in one linked computer network with little real security - in great detail. This one will be an easy victory. This species divides and conquers themselves - into many tiny groups that, at heart, hate each other so much. We expect little true, organized, enthusiastic resistance."
     
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  4. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    Seriously, though, the definition of a "racist" is someone who believes their race is superior to all other, or holds hatred and bigotry to others based on their racial origin alone. NO other qualifiers. And I could, if need be, tick off a HUGE list of non-White racists who are well-known, either currently, or historically.
     
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  5. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    So what would you say to these people?
     
  6. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    Say to which people, exactly? "These people" is a pretty oblique term.
     
  7. Imaus

    Imaus Chieftain

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    Even if Racism is only tied to power and the formal oppression of people; then no, whites cannot be racist. Whites have been the victims of racist administrations abroad. And so have blacks. So have Indians. Idi was racist. Mugabe was racist. There are undoubtedly others - Haiti, maybe, back in 1806. This is ontop of 'intraracial' violence or ethnic violence: Hutsi and Tutsi. Burmese and everyone else around them. Darfur. Etc, etc.

    Now, as for Africa, we have White Africans, and they deserve the same rights and chances as any other person of their nation of birth on the continent; if they're citizens thereof.
     
  8. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    Sorry to be pedantic here, but I have a close friend who is Rwandan-Canadian, so humour me. HUTU and Tutsi. "Hutsi" is a slang term in Rwanda (often perjorative) for someone with one parent of each of the two ethnicities.
     
  9. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    The South African situation in weird and complicated and doesn't map nicely onto the convention race relations understanding in 'the West'.

    But yeah, any group can be racist against another group. Somewhat anecdotally, I was reading an article a year or so ago about how in Tanzania (could be wrong, definitely East African though) there was significant tension between the locals and the Chinese contractors working on an infrastructure project because the Chinese contractors didn't even bother to hide their dislike and racist view about Africans. One of the Africans, who was a regional supervisor or something, noted that he preferred working with Americans or Europeans because at least they put forward an effort to pretend they weren't racist.
     
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  10. abradley

    abradley Chieftain

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    Racist is like Fascist, has no real meaning any more.
     
  11. Skwink

    Skwink FRIIIIIIIIIITZ

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    Unfortunately white people completely created these problems by colonizing and forcing their way into these lands, violently. Obviously white South Africans today weren't around at the time, but if they'd all just leave (by force or choice) and go back to England I think we can all agree that it'd be fair and pragmatic. Maybe it's not fair to them, but it's not really fair that they're there now, and their current position is the result of them and their ancestors being very, very unfair.
     
  12. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    So, you actually believe that the phenomenon of racism as a whole does not predate the Colonial Age at all, and ENTIRELY stems and originates from European actions alone during that period?
     
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  13. Skwink

    Skwink FRIIIIIIIIIITZ

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    I guess I should've said when I say "these problems" I don't mean racism as a whole I mean the problems of white settlers in South Africa
     
  14. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Chieftain

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    Bantus didn't exactly expand peacefully either.
     
  15. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    Well, the Zulu and other Bantu tribes invaded aggressively from the north and began a campaign of conquest at about the same the Volkstrekkers were moving east from the original Cape Colony. The Khoikhoi, the TRUE indigenous people of South Africa, were caught in a vice. But the Bantu are always regarded as just as indigenous and just as rightfully there by pedigree as the Khoikhoi, and always far moreso than the Afrikaaners. Curious, isn't it?
     
  16. Skwink

    Skwink FRIIIIIIIIIITZ

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    Well no, since they came from a handful of miles to the north and not from across the Earth.

    That's like saying that white people and the Cherokee have the same "ancestral" right to be living in Oklahoma today because neither of them came from there lol
     
  17. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Chieftain

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    No such thing as ancestral right almost every nation was founded in some else land.

    Eventually those nation's will be displaced by someone else.
     
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  18. Skwink

    Skwink FRIIIIIIIIIITZ

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    Well then sounds like a good way to justify the displacement of whites in South Africa
     
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  19. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Chieftain

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    Mind me asking how old you are?

    Mugabe tried this around 2000, hurt his people more due to the whites knew how to run the farms.

    The right way is imminent domain type laws or 1st right of refusal. It's African populism tends to end badly.
    Modern farming uses a lot of capital, seize the farm that dries up people go Hungary.
     
  20. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    One white people can be racist/oppressors, but by "white" only "germanic" should be meant :yup:

    Btw, this thread is in bad taste, given only a few days ago the world lost the great Robert Mugabe, RIP...
     

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