Can someone help me understand the strength of Calvary units?

[Bryan317]

So I recall a conversation I was having on this site possibly several years ago now. I had actually suggested that knights were overpowered and I was curious why they no longer required iron. I've done a full 180 on this and I'm not exactly sure when I changed my mind, as this mod has evolved so much. I'm not sure how long the formation promotion has been around, or automatically attached to spearmen, but that definitely has something to do with it.

These are the points I see and I'd like someone to correct me if I'm wrong or show me something I'm not seeing. In short, they all seem too fragile to me. They are all weak against Formation and there's nothing they can do to cure this. They also can do nothing to boost their defense against range attacks. So beginning with spearmen, these units absolutely crush them. And you'll be upgrading formation units right along the Calvary as you go and they will continue to be weak against them. And if you leave the knight unit in range of a city, that's guaranteed suicide.

The opposite is true for regular melee units. They can get Formation, they boost their defense against range attacks. Starting at Rifling they even get ranged defense for free. They can essentially well round themselves towards any direction you want to go. In fact I actually feel you can be stuck making a totally useless unit that will be killed by a spearmen the first time you try to use it. In terms of real life example, I think this is totally inaccurate. In the game you can completely win the medical/classical wars with just infantry. Where typically the army that had the heavy cavalry would take the field. I feel they lack a few bonuses that would make them actually useful/realistic. And it's really as simple as two things. The ability to move after attacking every time and a very large amount of flanking bonus.

Thought? Or tell me what I'm missing...

 

[DeAnno]

One hard to see advantage of both sorts of Cavalry is their strategic mobility. They can move quickly across your empire and the nearby terrains to defend against a new attack, clean up barbs, tribute CS, all sorts of things. Two move troops just take a very long time to move around, especially in areas with no roads, and generally you are better off having them assigned to specific areas; cavalry can sort of be everywhere at once.

As for military engagements, they both have their strengths. In particular melee horse is very good for smashing the heavy ranged/siege balls of troops the AI often amasses, running them down and dealing large amounts of damage with flanks while they take the hits fairly well in return due to raw high CS, even in flat land. IMO melee horse should always take shock and not drill for this reason unless it is very early game and you're doing a literal Horseman rush to take a city with.

One thing you have to accept about melee horse in particular is sometimes it will be unavoidable that you have to trade some units instead of just kill. For this reason they do much better in a big group of 4+, and also do better when you have kill bonuses such as Authority, Orders, or Terracotta. There's nothing that feels more useless than a single Tradition Knight you made on a lark.

 

[Bryan317]

You're already telling me it has a lot to do with playstyle. I have been heavy into tradition lately and I try not to lose units. Admittedly this is not the only strategy as some buffs actually give you yields for losing units.

I'm definitely going to try a strategy of using them next time as opposed to eliminating them from my strategy which I was considering lol (especially if we saw some good fixes for AI strategic trade deals)

But again I think I still see that as a problem with the Calvary. You have to set out to use them. Where they're not simply more powerful than an infantry unit. But I may be incorrect to assume they should be...

 

[DeAnno]

If you want just a touch of Cavalry's strategic advantages building ~2 Mounted Ranged is a much better idea. Move them back and forth as troubleshooters and they won't get in each other's way in the limited open terrain.

Building a giant ball of Mounted Melee, charging in at a disorganized ball of AI ranged/siege with a pike or two, and achieving a kill ratio of 4:1 or so does feel very good and fast, but you definitely have to aim to do it, yeah. And losing units always feels awful, but it also feels awful when the AI is creeping their ranged ball on your static front lines and you can't really do anything about it.

Of course if you're playing at maximum efficiency these days it's really better to trade your horses away at 10 gpt almost no matter what you're doing, but that will eventually be fixed hopefully.

 

[looorg]

You're already telling me it has a lot to do with playstyle. I have been heavy into tradition lately and I try not to lose units. Admittedly this is not the only strategy as some buffs actually give you yields for losing units.

It's all about the movement thing. I would say it's a very acquired taste tho. I much prefer the ranged mounted units as you can perform the hit-n-run. It's a playstyle thing to, while they are good at movement on their own they sort of shine if you can prepare a bit and put down a proper offensive road network where you plan to war so you can move about even faster. It makes all the difference depending on the terrain.

That said I'm one of those players that doesn't built much mounted melee unless playing a civ that has a good unique one. I would much rather just trade away the horses for gold. Gold I can turn into actual useful things.

Also that "i'm playing trying not to lose any units" is perhaps important in the start of the game but then becomes pointless as units can be replaced very fast and with more or less the same levels of promotions. So I much rather trade away some units to really achieve my wargoals then to sit around and hold back cause I want to preserve my precious units.

 

[Sgtslick]

When you get chivalry knights are super strong. They smash everything except pikemen, but even then its only just a slight disadvantage, you can survive 1 hit from them and 1 ranged attack i'd say. You don't want to fight them, you just got to try and use terrain to advantage to dodge them and snipe ranged stuff & longswords etc. They also have move after attack, which is a very powerful ability.

 

[Rosete]

I like to use calvary as "sniper" units against enemy ranged. I used calvary to smash the AI ranged units. It also helps that the AI will often retreat afterwards because they don't want to lose units, so my calvary often survive their suicidal charge. Even if I often lose a lot of calvaries it doesn't really matter as long as I retain my infantry/seige core army.

 

[CrazyG]

A few things are really in their favor

1. Combat Strength doesn't scale linearly. So a unit with 25CS is more than 20% stronger than a unit with 20. It means they do really good damage, especially to ranged units.
2. Movement and flanking. Flanking bonuses get really big, move after attack and flanking work well together.
3. Pikemen are a weak unit. Ranged units chew them up easily. But ranged units can struggle with longswords or siege weapons, knights can kill those (sometimes in just 1 hit)

With tradition I usually stick to infantry or ranged units. They are cheaper to build and you can make extra money by selling horses.

 

[pineappledan]

I hear we talking about Calvary in this thread?

 

[Bryan317]

Well I guess I feel their too situational and the melee units are only strong if you build them as soon as their available. They have a quick high time and then the formation equivalent is quickly suppressing them. This pretty much applies to every iteration. If you rush to horsemen, then yes you'll have an advantage. But then even spearman quickly cause trouble. If you build knights as soon as you get them, you may get some luck, but then pikeman are seriously slowing you down. (Formation II can be even more menacing) However you guys have pointed out some things and it's important to remember to not always think of this game as historical truth lol these units have extremely valuable uses for mopping up ranged and siege units. Or rushing into pillage tiles and Citidels. (Which is the only thing I've used one for this game)

 

[tommytoxen]

i use cavalry on the flanks, hit & run on their ranged units. i usually pair them with my scout/recon units who i try getting behind enemy lines to pillage strategic resources.

their mobility is their greatest strength, and the ability to retreat/pillage after attacking.

 

[Stalker0]

In terms of Knights, others have noted that the key is flanking. Knights can help each other, move one in just to provide flanking, and then move out again. Knight are at their best when they can attack the enemy and pull back, or have enough movement to kill the unit and pillage the tile that was there (healing the damage they took from the attack). My early horses that I upgrade to Knights I may go Shock III into March....attack with the Knights and pull back to a medic for instant recovery is very good. Later built knights I go Shock II into Charge I. Charge I is solid, and Charge II is terrifying.

I will say it is true that Knights are not the dominant unit they once were in the game....once tech is comparable. Knights still hit very hard when all you have is spears and cbows, but with pikes and longswords you do have to be tactical to get good use out of them.

With the lancer, so the trick with the lancer is that on paper compared to Fusiliers its stats don't look that great. But they are VERY CHEAP for that era (especially with stables), you can field much more of them compared to Fusiliers and field guns. So they are a great unit to puff up your supply and when your empire is large and you need a mobile strike team to go where they are needed.

With Landships and Tanks, now you get an innate defensive benefits, and this units become very...hehe..."tanky". The key now is in the pillaging. The units can hit, pillage, or move, pillage, move pillage to heal back up. This gives them a lot of staying power in the late game....tanks especially should pretty much always be doing a pillage after an attack to get them at good health.

 

[azum4roll]

While cheap, Lancers just die in two hits from any source in the Fusilier era, and AI is really good at making units line up so you can't attack and retreat. I'm not sure if it's worth the tile, even when I can produce one every turn. I'd like to have an upgrade between Lancer and Landship.

Knights are useful at sniping Composite Bows and Catapults/Trebuchets through incomplete formations. Maybe not as useful in Deity with unit carpets.

 

[andersw]

Depends so much on what difficulty.
On emperor the window (for me) to get knights before the AI is minute at best, even if I did get knights a bit before one of my nearby AIs its too risky to use offensively.
On lower difficulties where there arent as much combat penalties they can be very strong offensive, and the AI can use them effectively on any difficulty to delete other AIs.

I want to mix in a few mounted units in the front but usually overextend into rip at some stage and if Im not using the extra move (for risk of overextend) then I can just use landsknechts just as well.
So I try to just use them to pick off AI scouting/flanking units but still overextend ....
If you consider trading for ranged/siege they are very good, but at some point in difficulty trading units with the AI becomes a nono.

 

[Bryan317]

While cheap, Lancers just die in two hits from any source in the Fusilier era, and AI is really good at making units line up so you can't attack and retreat. I'm not sure if it's worth the tile, even when I can produce one every turn. I'd like to have an upgrade between Lancer and Landship.

Knights are useful at sniping Composite Bows and Catapults/Trebuchets through incomplete formations. Maybe not as useful in Deity with unit carpets.

Actually I think Lancers are the only horse unit worth building. They seem to actually hold their own for awhile and can remain somewhat useful even as Landships have been invented. But I'm really enjoying the different opinions.

I agree that we could use more Calvary units, but I think the transition from Lancer to Landships is fine. What we need is ”Light Calvary” between Horsemen and Knight, and Knights should be slightly stronger.

The question is what would you put between lancer and landship? In terms of historic accuracy, The ranged Calvary unit would actually be in place next to Fuscuellier (god how do spell that word without looking) I'm not sure what you would put in between lancer and land ship because technically I think it would be the raged Calvary unit, which is already in the game. I like the Lancer where it stands. It represents the highest level a melee horse unit could achieve. And I think they hold their own at just the perfect level. They are not armored, And they may not have heavy guns. But being impaled by a lance kills you whether you have a gun in your hand or not lol

 

[Fluffball]

Short version...Open terrain mounted units are very strong due to ability to cycle units quickly to attack multiple times with multiple units. Rough terrain mounted units aren't great but can be a great emergency defense force if you get attacked on a front you don't have a lot of troops and can slow the attack while more solid troops arrive.

Cavalry units usefulness and power vary greatly depending on terrain and geography. If you have a lot of open terrain were they can freely move and other units don't have access to terrain defensive bonuses then cavalry can be devastating on attack as they can often move in, attack and retreat in relative safety. The rougher the terrain the less useful cavalry units become as they often can't retreat to safety and don't gain the terrain defensive bonuses other units do so are often likely to die next turn or be so heavily damaged they have to retreat and heal for multiple turns if used on attack.
They are usually best used in conjunction with skirmisher units who will run in, hit the target to soften it and run away with the melee cavalry unit finishing it off or if the melee cavalry unit will be left in a precarious postition i will use it to hit first so it can then withdraw and finish off with the skirmisher.

Mounted units are often most flexible on defense when you have a good road network. If i have a good road network i can often cycle in 5 or 6 skirmishers to focus down targets and use melee cavalry as basic placeholders until normal melee tropps arrive to actually hold the line.

Contrary to a lot of people, after trying the shock line a number of times, i usually go for the more tanky drill, stalwart, blitz line on melee cavalry so you can soften up a target with ranged, finish it off with cavalry and it can tank a few hits for a turn or two at least to hold the territory and when you get blitz it seems more likely (maybe anecdotal) that you have some movement left after attacking so can withdraw if needs be.
I tend to go for parthian tactics (+1 movement) on the skirmisher line so that you have more options to hit and run without being left in an attackable position and this obviously uses the accuracy line which gives bonuses to attacking units above 50% HP and my ranged units tend to soften up the target before the melee get the kill.

Obviously at a lot depends on how quickly you get them and the power of the units they are used against. If you managed to get the them before the enemy have equivilent level other units then cavalry can run riot and be completely devastaing. When i have managed to beeline the tech before my enemy and have open terrain i have been able to fight wars completely with mounted units with the fot soldiers occasionally supporting on a tougher city, when they catch up.

I think a lot of people get confused on the role of mounted units as people think of heavy cavalry in medieval times or bliitzkrieg with tanks but history doesn't often glorify the boring bits where heavy mounted charges would generally smash through a line disrupting it but not actually doing much actual physical damage and quickly circle back around to the safety of the infantry line as they were very good in the initial shock but if they hung around to fight they would get overwhelmed by the enemy infantry once they were no longer mobile and fast moving and the infantry would then move into the gap created by the cavalry.

The same happens in modern times with tanks where we thiink of tank units storming through the enemy but tank units have a large contingent of infantry attached to them because once the shock factor ends and/or they move into more closed terrain tanks become very vulnerable to enemy infantry where a very simple home made explosive can disable a tank if placed in the appropriate place. Even with full blitzkrieg attack there is a tail of infantry which trail behind and actually fill the gap created by the tanks.

That strength/weakness balance plays out quite well in the game too. Mounted units are rapid response/shock/breakthrough units who are there to disrupt the battlefield not to actually own it or dominate it.

 

[Bryan317]

It just seems like they are missing something for "free" The infantry units start getting free promotions. (Formation/Ranged Defense) where Calvary gets none. They should at least get some automatic flanking (isn't that what they do) This wouldn't make them OP alone but in numbers they would gain strength.

 

[tothePAIN]

It just seems like they are missing something for "free" The infantry units start getting free promotions. (Formation/Ranged Defense) where Calvary gets none. They should at least get some automatic flanking (isn't that what they do) This wouldn't make them OP alone but in numbers they would gain strength.

Cavalry's free promotions are the movement points and the ability to attack and then move again, if not affected by zone of control during the initial attack. They get flanking through their movement.

During the game, the dominant unit switches around. My analysis on it is as follows:

1. Ancient - Horsement
2. Classical - Composite Bowmen
3. Medieval - Knights
4. Renaissance - Fairly evenly balanced - tercios / cannons come on line first, so when they come, they're strong. Then lancers and muskets handle them just fine, but come later.
5. Industrial - Fusiliers / Field Guns until Gatling Guns - which rule the era
6. Modern - Landships - This is where the cavalry line really dominates. The armor plating means they survive pretty well. The ability to attack and pillage means that if you find a weak spot in the enemy's forces, you're going to do serious damage and the Landships / Tanks / Modern Armor / Giant Robots will just keep going. At this point in the game, I start to favor Drill Line - Blitz - Stalwart for my tanks, because they have the movement point to take advantage of two attacks and I want them to survive. Also, the tank line culminates in units with much higher CS than the infantry line.

 

[Bryan317]

Cavalry's free promotions are the movement points and the ability to attack and then move again, if not affected by zone of control during the initial attack. They get flanking through their movement.

During the game, the dominant unit switches around. My analysis on it is as follows:

1. Ancient - Horsement
2. Classical - Composite Bowmen
3. Medieval - Knights
4. Renaissance - Fairly evenly balanced - tercios / cannons come on line first, so when they come, they're strong. Then lancers and muskets handle them just fine, but come later.
5. Industrial - Fusiliers / Field Guns until Gatling Guns - which rule the era
6. Modern - Landships - This is where the cavalry line really dominates. The armor plating means they survive pretty well. The ability to attack and pillage means that if you find a weak spot in the enemy's forces, you're going to do serious damage and the Landships / Tanks / Modern Armor / Giant Robots will just keep going. At this point in the game, I start to favor Drill Line - Blitz - Stalwart for my tanks, because they have the movement point to take advantage of two attacks and I want them to survive. Also, the tank line culminates in units with much higher CS than the infantry line.

Alright, You've convinced me a bit that the movement is what should be granting the flanking bonus. It's up to you to move the unit to the right spot, then flank.

I'm also on board with pretty much every point you made on unit strengths, with the exception of one. The Knight. I would argue it's the Long Swordsman because of the points I've made here. They get an Automatic Cover I for starters. Not only that you are unlocking the Long swordsman and the pikemen at the same time (counter to Knight) But yes, once we get to Landships/Tanks everything feels right.

I definitely need to try using Knights more as I can't scoff off their importance, if I'm ignorant on how to use them correctly.

 

[tothePAIN]

Alright, You've convinced me a bit that the movement is what should be granting the flanking bonus. It's up to you to move the unit to the right spot, then flank.

I'm also on board with pretty much every point you made on unit strengths, with the exception of one. The Knight. I would argue it's the Long Swordsman because of the points I've made here. They get an Automatic Cover I for starters. Not only that you are unlocking the Long swordsman and the pikemen at the same time (counter to Knight) But yes, once we get to Landships/Tanks everything feels right.

I definitely need to try using Knights more as I can't scoff off their importance, if I'm ignorant on how to use them correctly.

The feel of knights differs depending on the difficulty. If Emperor or below, you're trying to get them before the other side. Then use them to pillage roads, resources, etc. They can't take out pikemen / longswords in mass but its really hard to kill them unless the other side misplays. (Using your scout with extra vision is important for this.)

On Immortal+, you have to have a plan for dealing with knights with Swordsman and Composite Bows only. It can be done but requires good city placement.

Part of the strength of knights is that they arrive early enough in the game that all civs might not have a mass of units yet - depends on the difficulty.