BeastMaster
Chieftain
for a game rating of "E" and having kids of my own, the drugs factor is just wrong. drugs are no joke and destroy real lives. this is a game and can be replayed - real life is played for keeps.
Can someone incorporate drugs into game?
- Thread starter Killagram
- Start date
dante alighieri
Warlord
I don't see how it could enhance gameplay at all. On a scale of 1 to 10 this idea rates -100.
Nice stoner idea to play with. But obviously, Firaxis wouldn't touch it with a 10x10^10million foot pole. It was hard enough to include religion in an inoccuous, PC way, it would be impossible to do with drugs. Plus, hard drugs are no laughing matter, as my Heroin taking former friends would tell you if they were still alive.
Nevertheless, the first thing that came to my mind was...
Hali Salasi of the Ethiopians
--------------------------
Traits:
Spiritual
Charismatic
UU:
Rastaman (Replaces Spy)
Decreases cost of Incite Revolt by 50%.
Cause Unhapiness/Poison Water is replaced with "Smoke Out" which causes both "Unhappiness"* and "Poor Health"* to 8 people simultaneously.
UB:
Coffee Shop (Replaces Market)
+2 Health for Spices, Banannas and Sugar
+2 Happiness for "Spices".
Starting Techs:
Agriculture
Mysticism
* Although, they aren't really unhappy or unhealthy, they just don't want to work for "The Man".
Nevertheless, the first thing that came to my mind was...
Hali Salasi of the Ethiopians
--------------------------
Traits:
Spiritual
Charismatic
UU:
Rastaman (Replaces Spy)
Decreases cost of Incite Revolt by 50%.
Cause Unhapiness/Poison Water is replaced with "Smoke Out" which causes both "Unhappiness"* and "Poor Health"* to 8 people simultaneously.
UB:
Coffee Shop (Replaces Market)
+2 Health for Spices, Banannas and Sugar
+2 Happiness for "Spices".
Starting Techs:
Agriculture
Mysticism
* Although, they aren't really unhappy or unhealthy, they just don't want to work for "The Man".
So drugs are bad but the violence factor in nuking cities, razing cities, sacrificial altars, killing people to increase production, slavery, and so on isn't wrong? Are you saying that wars are a joke and don't destroy real lives?
You could also argue that CIV currently has: Alcohol Reference, Cartoon Violence, Comic Mischief, possibly Crude Humor, possibly Mature Humor, Simulated Gambling (with some of the random events), Violence, and Violent References. Adding Drug Reference to that probably shouldn't change the rating any.
Bottom line is that it's a game and drugs would be as appropriate as content as the rest.
jray
King
With all due respect, shouldn't this thread be in the Civ - Ideas & Suggestions or Civ4 - Creation & Customization forum?
ushram
Balseraph puppet
/agreed 100%,
its typical thinking for contemporary America,
Since when is violence is a negative thing?
I really hate to bring up this reference,
Just like the superbowl with Jackson, oh no, not the nudity, but its ok to watch two teams beat the snot out of each other, and then respect them as heroes
Our country was spawned out of violence and we have reveled in it ever since. This type of desensitization lays much deeper seeds within a child than drug references could ever establish.
If anything, having drugs in a game with significant cultural / economic / social effects, would help stimulate a childs awareness of the issue.
Jormungandr
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2007
- Messages
- 70
Uh, since forever? Actual violence, of course, not faked violence portrayed in games and the media.
Minor Annoyance
Deity
I had thought about tobacco as a possible resource that increased happiness but decreased health but I since it's inconvenient to have to cut off a resource if you no longer want it.
Maybe a mod or a scenario where corporations were replaced with drug cartels could work. There would have to be a corp that functioned as the DEA which used the same resources as the drug corps so spreading to the same city would eliminate them at a high cost.
Maybe a mod or a scenario where corporations were replaced with drug cartels could work. There would have to be a corp that functioned as the DEA which used the same resources as the drug corps so spreading to the same city would eliminate them at a high cost.
Apart from political incorrectness (which means a mod can be created where official sources are tied) I'm curious to how drugs would be added in a way that would add to the gameplay.
Of course we also have the issue that most people talk about drugs without knowing what they're talking about. And they also forget about the 6 millenia civ spans in favour of a couple of decades of life experience.
If we're just talking about adding a resource or two (tobacco being one, the other a choice from a larger family - I would go for hemp but I guess coka and opium are possible as well), then we need to know what they add to base tile, how they're improved, what the improvement adds, and what does having access to the resource add. Some buildings may further grant something for the resource.
I'm not sure if adding a resource or two would really enhance gameplay though - don't we already have enough resources?
If however something else is meant than just adding a resource or few, then please specify better what. And please explain how it enhances gameplay - just being able to talk about how your troops were drugged in game of civ isn't gameplay enhancing to me.
Of course we also have the issue that most people talk about drugs without knowing what they're talking about. And they also forget about the 6 millenia civ spans in favour of a couple of decades of life experience.
If we're just talking about adding a resource or two (tobacco being one, the other a choice from a larger family - I would go for hemp but I guess coka and opium are possible as well), then we need to know what they add to base tile, how they're improved, what the improvement adds, and what does having access to the resource add. Some buildings may further grant something for the resource.
I'm not sure if adding a resource or two would really enhance gameplay though - don't we already have enough resources?
If however something else is meant than just adding a resource or few, then please specify better what. And please explain how it enhances gameplay - just being able to talk about how your troops were drugged in game of civ isn't gameplay enhancing to me.
SwordofStriker
Prince
I'm on the fence with this one.
I'm not someone who needs more resources for the sake of more resources, so I'd require something significant added to game play to even consider it, and there are numerous other legal resources you could argue that should be in the game. There have been quite a few discussions about rubber, saltpeter, etc, and to me, the plants that drugs are made of and the actual drugs themselves are no different.
Like ushram said, people are very accepting of so many things simply because they're legal and yet these things destroy even more lives than the aforementioned illegal or banned drugs. I know more people who have been affected by drunk drivers than I do who have had hard drug problems. I know more people with cancer from smoking tobacco than who have illegal drug related medical problems.
Granted this isn't the place to necessarily debate the pro's and/or cons of drugs (legal or otherwise) as it will only lead to heated discussion which will probably result in a thread closing. If the OP wants those in his game, neither myself nor anyone else has the right to pass judgement on him.
I'm not someone who needs more resources for the sake of more resources, so I'd require something significant added to game play to even consider it, and there are numerous other legal resources you could argue that should be in the game. There have been quite a few discussions about rubber, saltpeter, etc, and to me, the plants that drugs are made of and the actual drugs themselves are no different.
Like ushram said, people are very accepting of so many things simply because they're legal and yet these things destroy even more lives than the aforementioned illegal or banned drugs. I know more people who have been affected by drunk drivers than I do who have had hard drug problems. I know more people with cancer from smoking tobacco than who have illegal drug related medical problems.
Granted this isn't the place to necessarily debate the pro's and/or cons of drugs (legal or otherwise) as it will only lead to heated discussion which will probably result in a thread closing. If the OP wants those in his game, neither myself nor anyone else has the right to pass judgement on him.
Inspector Javert
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2005
- Messages
- 510
Well there's no way in you know where that it'll be added in the regular game but I do think that somone should make a Mod, maybe somthing like this
Hemp +1 production to tile (w/o improvement) revealed by pottery (bongs!) +1
with plantation
Opium requires plantation provides +1 +1 
(with medicine) +1 with hospital. (An Opium bar could be UB for a middle eastern of Asian civ with more happiness)
New building: Brewery +1 for Rice, Wheat, Corn, etc. (anything can be made into booze)
Hemp +1 production to tile (w/o improvement) revealed by pottery (bongs!) +1
with plantationOpium requires plantation provides +1
+1 (with medicine) +1 with hospital. (An Opium bar could be UB for a middle eastern of Asian civ with more happiness)New building: Brewery +1
for Rice, Wheat, Corn, etc. (anything can be made into booze)I would have thought opium would be more like plus 1 and plus one 
would be great to have double-edged resources like that, where you can take a benefit but only if you accept the downside.
Of course, with that benefit from opium, as a warmonger leader I'd probably distribute drugs to the populace to make them forget to be angry that I sent their men off to die in a war, and enslaved their countrymen to produce my weapons.
If you run up some killer war-weariness like I do, you keep the population low and you wind up wanting happiness more than health.
and plus one would be great to have double-edged resources like that, where you can take a benefit but only if you accept the downside.
Of course, with that benefit from opium, as a warmonger leader I'd probably distribute drugs to the populace to make them forget to be angry that I sent their men off to die in a war, and enslaved their countrymen to produce my weapons.
If you run up some killer war-weariness like I do, you keep the population low and you wind up wanting happiness more than health.
It it kinda funny that opium, a simple poppy a luxury resource so critical to ENgland and AMerica's build up, and still the trade device used to grow or stiffle the greatest civs of all time(Egypt Sumeria, America, ENgland, INdia, China, Germany ) has been left out of the game. Its a major slap in the face to reality of history and Civs relience on Blackmarket poppys
The man responsable for founding THe President of United state's Frat house the order of Skull of Bones, was the 3rd largest dealer of opium in the world. Only Britian was allowed to control more dope at the time and their lead in nations econmies has always been there since. They found drugs as a trading tool when proud indepent CIvs like China didn't want to give up their silk or tea for American or Birish trinkents
I guess secret societs would be a better thing to add then just drugs. Even a new victory Condition for New WOrld Order much like SPace race parts.
1. Buy a President
2. Buy FEd Reserve (the national mint)
3. BUild UNIted NAtions, NATO, and combine currencys (EURO, AMERO etc)
4. Buy the media,
5. Set up Patriot ACt
6. Corner Gov DEfence contracts
5. Set up atleast 10 puppet FOregn Gov's and trigger a major world war
6 Micro chip population
FOr all this to be possable you would need 3 strategic resources availble at all times Gold Oil Drugs... and theirs your state religion
The man responsable for founding THe President of United state's Frat house the order of Skull of Bones, was the 3rd largest dealer of opium in the world. Only Britian was allowed to control more dope at the time and their lead in nations econmies has always been there since. They found drugs as a trading tool when proud indepent CIvs like China didn't want to give up their silk or tea for American or Birish trinkents
I guess secret societs would be a better thing to add then just drugs. Even a new victory Condition for New WOrld Order much like SPace race parts.
1. Buy a President
2. Buy FEd Reserve (the national mint)
3. BUild UNIted NAtions, NATO, and combine currencys (EURO, AMERO etc)
4. Buy the media,
5. Set up Patriot ACt
6. Corner Gov DEfence contracts
5. Set up atleast 10 puppet FOregn Gov's and trigger a major world war
6 Micro chip population
FOr all this to be possable you would need 3 strategic resources availble at all times Gold Oil Drugs... and theirs your state religion
Hemp was more important for fibers than smoke. We're actually seeing reneissance of hemp now, as it's once more grown for legal purposes - these days seems to be mostly clothes. Note that cannabis is a family of plants, some of which produce more THC and some less. Currently legal industrial hemp is low on THC and high on fibers, whereas some other breeds are exactly for the opposite: high THC content.
I don't think one needs a tech to discover hemp - no special processing or cultivation is needed to use it for the strong fibers. Extracts are another matter of course, but they're tied to getting access to the resource - a different issue that is easily addressed by making it plantation resource (equals to getting access to resource with Calendar, which is just fine).
It could be strategic or luxury resource, or like elephant: a bit of both. I agree with +1
on base tile, maybe +1 +1 
with plantation and +1 with access to resource. Hmm... Now it's the same as elephant - I guess if plantation added +2 and no hammers it'd be different.
There were a number of important uses for hemp, so coming up with other effects would be easy.
My take on the above? Unnecessary. For one, it adds luxury without need for luxury (ie. happiness without unhappiness - unbalanced situation again). For second, it's "just one more resource". If we add all resources people want, all tiles will eventually have some resource
In case of opium, medicinal use makes it a health resource indeed. Various extracts have been used (and I would expect still to be used in some countries) for medicinal purposes. These days neither opium nor extracts are used as medicines in western countries, as synthetic medicines have replaced opiates. The best painkiller I've ever been administered was opiate (that was in hospital, administered by nurses, not for personal use, and so on) but I would expect just as powerful painkillers to be available from synthetic lines these days.
Use of opium as recreational drug is fairly recent, having spread from China and India to other countries in 19th century. It was known as recreational drug before, but was way too expensive to matter to anyone. I can't think of proper category for it - it's hard to describe it as health resource (comparing it to grain, livestock, fish..), and it certainly was luxury to have it available - still it's use was medicinal and not comparable to most luxuries in the game which again are for wider population.
So my take on opium? Neither health nor luxury (and certainly not strategic) resource - it could present good ideas for events though.
Best ways I can think of to easily express drugs is via corporations. It'd be easy to add PharmaCo to represent medicinal drugs in modern world, and again, BigBongs could easily handle recreational drugs. Modern recreational drugs aren't really related to health nor happiness anyway - they're related to money pure and simple. Abstracting away the details of production and distribution of illegal recreational drugs we get something that indeed does resemble a corporation.
I don't think one needs a tech to discover hemp - no special processing or cultivation is needed to use it for the strong fibers. Extracts are another matter of course, but they're tied to getting access to the resource - a different issue that is easily addressed by making it plantation resource (equals to getting access to resource with Calendar, which is just fine).
It could be strategic or luxury resource, or like elephant: a bit of both. I agree with +1
on base tile, maybe +1 +1 with plantation and +1 with access to resource. Hmm... Now it's the same as elephant - I guess if plantation added +2 and no hammers it'd be different.There were a number of important uses for hemp, so coming up with other effects would be easy.
My take on the above? Unnecessary. For one, it adds luxury without need for luxury (ie. happiness without unhappiness - unbalanced situation again). For second, it's "just one more resource". If we add all resources people want, all tiles will eventually have some resource
In case of opium, medicinal use makes it a health resource indeed. Various extracts have been used (and I would expect still to be used in some countries) for medicinal purposes. These days neither opium nor extracts are used as medicines in western countries, as synthetic medicines have replaced opiates. The best painkiller I've ever been administered was opiate (that was in hospital, administered by nurses, not for personal use, and so on) but I would expect just as powerful painkillers to be available from synthetic lines these days.
Use of opium as recreational drug is fairly recent, having spread from China and India to other countries in 19th century. It was known as recreational drug before, but was way too expensive to matter to anyone. I can't think of proper category for it - it's hard to describe it as health resource (comparing it to grain, livestock, fish..), and it certainly was luxury to have it available - still it's use was medicinal and not comparable to most luxuries in the game which again are for wider population.
So my take on opium? Neither health nor luxury (and certainly not strategic) resource - it could present good ideas for events though.
Best ways I can think of to easily express drugs is via corporations. It'd be easy to add PharmaCo to represent medicinal drugs in modern world, and again, BigBongs could easily handle recreational drugs. Modern recreational drugs aren't really related to health nor happiness anyway - they're related to money pure and simple. Abstracting away the details of production and distribution of illegal recreational drugs we get something that indeed does resemble a corporation.
BeastMaster
Chieftain
Sometimes this subject is best approached in terms of accessibility:
- Accessibility to Nuclear Weapons: Extremely Limited
- Accessibility to Siege Weapons Capable of Razing Cities: Extremely Limited
- Accessibility to Sacrificial Altars: Very Limited
- Accessibility to Authority to Kill People to Increase Production: Extremely Limited
- Accessibility to Slave Trade: Very Limited
- Accessibility to Wage War: Limited
- Accessibility to Drugs: Highly Accessible
Alcohol Reference, Cartoon Violence, Comic Mischief, possibly Crude Humor, possibly Mature Humor, Simulated Gambling (with some of the random events), Violence, and Violent References Saturday Morning Cartoons (unavoidable).
I positive most will say I know this person who has a sacrificial alter or has the ability to wage war, but reality is very few people have such capabilities and those who do would be flagged by any parent from the get-go and avoided.
With such easy access to drugs in America, the major fact that they are illegal, and the likelihood that you will go to prison if found in possession of such material; its just not good parenting or good business or good anything to have such a devastating and consequential behavior like the illicit drug trade included in a game that children have easy access to.
Bottom Line:
For an immature mind where the boundaries of fantasy and appropriate behavior are not well defined, actively engaging in the drug trade on a weekly basis playing Civ sets the stage all too well for the behavior be carried out in real life.
Seras
BuildingMonger
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2005
- Messages
- 228
huh?
pretty much anyone can make their own sacrificial "altar"...all it takes is a will/urge to sacrifice someone or something.
i'd say murder is a *lot* more accessible than drugs
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
Apparently, kids taking over civs, razing cities, and using slavery to achieve early game goals is okay, but developing drugs as a mid/late game strategy is too taboo. If someone is going to allow their children to play a game of world domination which uses strats like slavery, drafting, wars involving suicide units, and backstabbing for gains, are drugs really that much worse (when it comes to video game strategy)?
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
This isn't real life, it's a game. I'd rather my kid end up smoking reefer than go through life thinking slavery was just a means to an end and isn't really that bad of an institution. Excessive drinking is worse than pot in all aspects (aka: thousands of percent more dead from drinking than pot, violence extremely common with drinking but practically absent when on pot, family violence, etc. etc.) yet wine is still a luxury resource in the game. It's a video game. How do you know you're not encouraging violence when your kids declare war in CIV?
Violence is no joke and destroys millions more lives than drugs ever have or ever will.
eric_
Emperor
IMO just about everyone under the age of, say, 35, grew up playing video games. Violence and other forms of "undesirable" behaviors have been featured and even celebrated in many of those games for as long as they have existed. But, oddly enough, no one I know, whether they're my age (30) or younger, has developed the idea that violence is OK in real life, nor fails to distinguish between real life and a game. I'm extremely curious to know if anyone else has experience to the contrary (where violence was undoubtedly video game inspired).
That said, I don't think anyone is advocating for these resources to be included in the standard game, but rather that they be included in a mod. While I think the irrationally hypercautious nature of our culture--not to mention the horrifically immoral laws surrounding "drug" use--is more detrimental to children than any drug, I'm aware that people have their concerns, and I can respect that. Furthermore, that aspect of our culture (which causes people to overlook that a game blatantly prizes violent forms of victory over peaceful ones, but shudder at the idea of introducing "drugs") makes it likely that including drugs would amount to financial suicide on the part of the game developer.
That said, I don't think anyone is advocating for these resources to be included in the standard game, but rather that they be included in a mod. While I think the irrationally hypercautious nature of our culture--not to mention the horrifically immoral laws surrounding "drug" use--is more detrimental to children than any drug, I'm aware that people have their concerns, and I can respect that. Furthermore, that aspect of our culture (which causes people to overlook that a game blatantly prizes violent forms of victory over peaceful ones, but shudder at the idea of introducing "drugs") makes it likely that including drugs would amount to financial suicide on the part of the game developer.
