Can someone incorporate drugs into game?
- Thread starter Killagram
- Start date
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
Agreed on all points. Although I am an advocate for including the "drugs" as a resource, it would make the game much less marketable in our "hyper-moral" society (at least in the U.S.). I'm all for a mod with drugs, but I don't want to see Firaxis on the chopping block for it.
I think drugs would be better suited more like the religion or spy system instead of a resource. You could create a distribution network to other countries which would increase your nations profits by spreading the drug trade to their cities, but if they get caught it would anger the nation and create serious diplomatic consequences.
I don't think it should be part of the main game, but no one can deny it's a part of civilization. The same could be said of adding an illegal immigrant system where you could send people to work in other nations and then bring the money back to your nation. It's a reality, but I think it pushes a bit beyond what's intended for an enjoyable form of entertainment. Sure, it would certainly make for a more accurate depiction of civilization, but more people would be offended if terrorism, the drug trade, the porn industry, etc. were added just to make it more accurate.
Course, I'd play the mod.
I don't think it should be part of the main game, but no one can deny it's a part of civilization. The same could be said of adding an illegal immigrant system where you could send people to work in other nations and then bring the money back to your nation. It's a reality, but I think it pushes a bit beyond what's intended for an enjoyable form of entertainment. Sure, it would certainly make for a more accurate depiction of civilization, but more people would be offended if terrorism, the drug trade, the porn industry, etc. were added just to make it more accurate.
Course, I'd play the mod.
eric_
Emperor
Welcome, nevar!
Anyhoo, the drug trade could be incorporated by way of sinister corp execs or missionaries, but I think that would grossly misrepresent the true role of many of these substances throughout history until very recently. Mostly, they have been used in medicinal, spiritual, industrious (hemp, coca), and/or military (hash, coca, maybe alcohol) capacities. So, I think introducing them as resources that, in the modern era, come to support something like "black market" networks would be the way to go if you want to bring in the global drug trade.
Now, immigration could really make things interesting. Immigration here in the US has had a huge effect on culture, for instance, not to mention controversial claims about how it does or does not effect the economy.
Anyhoo, the drug trade could be incorporated by way of sinister corp execs or missionaries, but I think that would grossly misrepresent the true role of many of these substances throughout history until very recently. Mostly, they have been used in medicinal, spiritual, industrious (hemp, coca), and/or military (hash, coca, maybe alcohol) capacities. So, I think introducing them as resources that, in the modern era, come to support something like "black market" networks would be the way to go if you want to bring in the global drug trade.
Now, immigration could really make things interesting. Immigration here in the US has had a huge effect on culture, for instance, not to mention controversial claims about how it does or does not effect the economy.
I know they already have jails, but its not the same as PRISONS! Jails circumvent unhappiness, whereas PRISONS, in real life too, generate profits. Like I said before Prison population are used by corporations as cheap slave labor, so if modders could put that in the game then I could have a stronger police state to reflect modern-day America
Prisons do not generate profit. If they did, we would not have inmates released because of overcrowding. We would build more prisons.
What prisons actually do is increase crime by training more hardened criminals, and put an unproductive drain on the economy.
I'm not saying criminals shouldn't be removed from society, IMO, they should. But the modern american prison system does little to nothing towards rehabilitation, mostly only making the crime problem worse.
Want to solve crime? Solve poverty and lack of education and job skills.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
^^@Xanadux: BINGO, YAHTZEE, etc etc! Couldn't have said it better myself
CaptainMidnight
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2006
- Messages
- 141
I always thought that the American UB should be Prison/Industrial Complex, replacing jails. Prison systems in the States are a going financial concern with a abundance of affordable labour for all sorts of mundane work. Call centres, making number plates, clothing... The West loves cheap labour.
Moderator Action: Thread moved to Civ4 C&C
Tannertu
Chieftain
The only reason drugs are a contentious issue is because of the US policy of prohibition a policy derived from religious morality, not public health concerns. The War on Drugs may seem to many to be a natural state of affairs to many, but it is in fact highly anomalous and culture specific.
Drugs have always been a backdrop to civilization. I see no need for them in the game. Perhaps prohibition should be included as a civics option, although I cant think what benefits it would bring. Plus gold and/or hammers from jails perhaps?
Drugs have always been a backdrop to civilization. I see no need for them in the game. Perhaps prohibition should be included as a civics option, although I cant think what benefits it would bring. Plus gold and/or hammers from jails perhaps?
Jormungandr
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2007
- Messages
- 70
I'll take your point seriously when your kid starts calling himself Pacal and demanding techs from you.
Yep, Violence is American, especially with Guns. Busty Barbie Blondes in Bikinis is American. Drinking Budweiser all day is American. We see these images all day long.
Peaceful Coexistance, Realistic Human Sexuality, and Smoking Pot are for crazy, liberal, hippy, America-hating disenters and need to be censored.
CornPlanter
Emperor
Its really funny seeing how many of you are concerned with kids. Yeah, incorporating drugs in a game would be bad for kids. In a game which contains a massive amount of killings, starting with maces and finishing with old good nuclear bombs. If you wanna get a new resource, say, Iron, which happens to be inside rivals borders, you take your axemen and catapults, go, kill people, conquer city, have iron. That model of actions is perfectly OK for kids. Also there is another good one: hurrying production with the help of whip. Lets drop this city population by 3 and have that courthouse sooner. 3 pop is how many people killed? I think it depends on city size. Anyway. This is perfectly OK for kids. But having cannabis in the game is not. Jeez...
And I don't even mention grapes already in the game. Do you think that happines comes from just eating grapes? But its nothing compared to killings...
Killagram: I'm interested.
And I don't even mention grapes already in the game. Do you think that happines comes from just eating grapes? But its nothing compared to killings...
Killagram: I'm interested.
Um, yea thats the way the system works, more criminals means more leaning towards a police state, which means more people in jail, which means more inmates doing slave labor work for corporations who run them, which means jobs for the surrounding communities, which means more money for corporations who run logistics into the prison, ie. laundry service, food, admin, guns, construction, ....
why solve poverty when my corporation can take advantage of those inner-city youths who can't get a job and end up in prison, and then in prison and I can pay them .25 cents an hour to make some parts for my stuff that makes me a whole lot of money? I dont care about the people or their welfare, as long as I'm making money by taking advantage of them, I can continue to swell my pockets.
BtW, I like that idea of someone saying to use a drug resource for a nation whose hurting to help economy, but would deal a negative to diplomacy because other nation's standings and their streets flooding of drugs...
CornPlanter
Emperor
Oh yeah I just remembered this game already has religions which I see as "Opium for masses". And if I recall correctly, some events are about religious wars aka crusades...
and a whole lot of prisons have been built check the number of prisons 20 years ago to today
June 2004 to June 2005 the nation's jail and prison population grew 2.6 percent to 2,186,230. This is more than twice the rate of annual population growth for both the US and the world, according to the US Census Bureau. (tip, pdf)
The United States has both a greater percentage of its citizens behind bars (0.736%) and more people jailed in total than any other nation in the world. (pdf) Our incarceration rate of 736 per 100,000 people handily trumps number two, Russia (at about 530/100,000). The next highest ranking western country is the UK, at number 18, with well under 200 per 100,000.
We account for only about five percent of the worlds population, but almost one in four persons incarcerated. (pdf) In fact, we have "100,000 more persons behind bars for drug offenses alone than the entire European Union has incarcerated -- and the EU is larger than the U.S. by 100 million people
DRUG OFFENSES!!!!!!
June 2004 to June 2005 the nation's jail and prison population grew 2.6 percent to 2,186,230. This is more than twice the rate of annual population growth for both the US and the world, according to the US Census Bureau. (tip, pdf)
The United States has both a greater percentage of its citizens behind bars (0.736%) and more people jailed in total than any other nation in the world. (pdf) Our incarceration rate of 736 per 100,000 people handily trumps number two, Russia (at about 530/100,000). The next highest ranking western country is the UK, at number 18, with well under 200 per 100,000.
We account for only about five percent of the worlds population, but almost one in four persons incarcerated. (pdf) In fact, we have "100,000 more persons behind bars for drug offenses alone than the entire European Union has incarcerated -- and the EU is larger than the U.S. by 100 million people
DRUG OFFENSES!!!!!!
Mercury314
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2007
- Messages
- 43
I can actually see this working:
Three new resources, Opium, Cocaine and Cannabis or something along those lines. Gives +1 happy and -1 health in a city as a trade-off. With their own improvement of course.
With an Apothecary (new building) remove the -1 health for these resources.
The Dutch will could a unique building Coffeeshop (replaces Apothecary) that adds +10% commerce due to tourism or something.
As an additional feature, when a population has had access to these resources but that access is stopped, they add a temporary unhappiness bonus that lasts 10 rounds (1 unhappy per lost resource), in addition to the lost happiness bonus. This will motivate players to keep the drugs flowing and may even make it worthwhile to trade them to an enemy for a while and then stop doing so.
One could add a U.N. resolution: War on Drugs, which will make trading of these resources impossible (unless defied by both parties) between players.
Three new resources, Opium, Cocaine and Cannabis or something along those lines. Gives +1 happy and -1 health in a city as a trade-off. With their own improvement of course.
With an Apothecary (new building) remove the -1 health for these resources.
The Dutch will could a unique building Coffeeshop (replaces Apothecary) that adds +10% commerce due to tourism or something.
As an additional feature, when a population has had access to these resources but that access is stopped, they add a temporary unhappiness bonus that lasts 10 rounds (1 unhappy per lost resource), in addition to the lost happiness bonus. This will motivate players to keep the drugs flowing and may even make it worthwhile to trade them to an enemy for a while and then stop doing so.
One could add a U.N. resolution: War on Drugs, which will make trading of these resources impossible (unless defied by both parties) between players.
eric_
Emperor
Ah, right, it's so calming that it leads to things like the crusades, jihad, Jewish reclaiming of the "holy land," monks protesting in the streets, etc. Real complacent behaviors!
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
@Mercury314: I like your ideas on how to incorporate narcotics. There should be a penalty in the modern and future ages like higher maintenance to reflect the publicly demonstrated politically negative attitude towards drugs. This can be offset by a new modern+ era building that has been suggested in this thread already: the prison. The prison can reduce "drug maintenance" as well as provide for lowered war weariness and even a counter to the " 
we demand emancipation!". Many civ fans have suggested reasons why the Emancipation civic kills their late game strat.
we demand emancipation!". Many civ fans have suggested reasons why the Emancipation civic kills their late game strat.@Mercury
Your idea about incorporating some narcotics seems to cover only 19th century and onwards. Practically for the whole time recreational drugs (excl. alcohol and tobacco) have been in widespread use in western countries, they've been illegal. First to go was opium, which was illegalized in US due to the widespread use - use of opium spread to US via immigration from China and India. Britain followed suit soon afterwards.
If we're talking about 19th century onwards aspects, then I say corporations are a fine way to handle recreational drugs. If we're talking about long history of use of various herbs and extracts from plants that have later been considered drugs for medical use and even later for recreational use, then it's completely different.
So, any way you would incorporate plants that have been used for a long time and which (or extracts or products of which) are or have during last century been considered for use as recreational drugs, probably illegal in most countries?
Your idea about incorporating some narcotics seems to cover only 19th century and onwards. Practically for the whole time recreational drugs (excl. alcohol and tobacco) have been in widespread use in western countries, they've been illegal. First to go was opium, which was illegalized in US due to the widespread use - use of opium spread to US via immigration from China and India. Britain followed suit soon afterwards.
If we're talking about 19th century onwards aspects, then I say corporations are a fine way to handle recreational drugs. If we're talking about long history of use of various herbs and extracts from plants that have later been considered drugs for medical use and even later for recreational use, then it's completely different.
So, any way you would incorporate plants that have been used for a long time and which (or extracts or products of which) are or have during last century been considered for use as recreational drugs, probably illegal in most countries?
