[RD] Can the existence of cars be justified whatsoever?

[aimeeandbeatles]

Tragedy of the commons.

 

[Lexicus]

Oohh here's a good article I just spotted on Facebook:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessrev...2DZbUBXyD9ewxtOPt-Q7-Km64gFgdd0QKWffk9O-gsX9E

 

[MaryKB]

There are many political approaches one might take to addressing this problem.

I don't know ... I'm skeptical something on such a scale's impossible outside of an autocracy? And I also don't believe huge global-scale construction efforts are going to make things better ... what kind of vehicles are you going to use to tear everything up and replace it? How many emissions would it take for construction at such a level?

 

[Snerk]

Yes exactly! There was a report I read the other day that claimed that shipping operators have installed cheat devices that simply redirect the worst pollutants from their ships into the ocean rather than the air to get around government regulations. In the face of pollution like that, getting rid of shopping bags and straws is a drop in the bucket. I sound like a broken record now but pressuring individuals to change their lifestyles is going to be a dead end. People should still be asked to make changes but the bigger problem is the more massive and fundamental changes we have to make to combat this.

During WWII everyone was asked to conserve and rationing went into effect but that was probably helpful to the overall effort only at the margins. The war was won by massive industrial build up, coordination and research. We're now being forced to fight the biggest threat we've faced down as a species and it's going to take a lot more than bag bans to win it. We need new technologies deployed on a massive scale as fast as we can deploy it if we want to stop total ecological collapse and we have to stop acting like shaming Tom, Dick and Harry for driving hummers and stuffing their faces with an extra helping of lard-fried pork rinds is going to fix the problem. There are simply bigger fish to fry and I just feel that trying to convince (or force) everyone to radically change their lifestyles is fundamentally a non-starter.

Well, I mean, shaming Tom, Dick and Harry to give up the Hummers is a good idea. It just doesn't go far enough and it's exceedingly difficult to make people change their behavior like that at an individual level. And I apologize for the lame WWII reference. Those are hard to pass up when talking about things of this scale.

We have to do the big things, we have to do the small things. And sometimes with the small things it's a matter of perspective. A big focus on a things like a straw ban is silly, but a collective shift in our entire production and use of single use plastics (including straws) is much less significant. There will always be people trying to stir up as much noise as possible to smoke screen real measures that will hurt them financially. We got to see through that and not get sidetracked if we're to stand a chance.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

The problem with plastic straw bans is that for people with disabilities, there's no real good alternative. Paper straws turn to mush, metal and hard plastics can cause injuries.

What did people do before straws? Well, they aspirated their liquids and often ended up with pneumonia.

 

[Lexicus]

I don't know ... I'm skeptical something on such a scale's impossible outside of an autocracy? And I also don't believe huge global-scale construction efforts are going to make things better ... what kind of vehicles are you going to use to tear everything up and replace it? How many emissions would it take for construction at such a level?

The context of what you quoted was making our devices more durable. You can halt planned obsolescence by taxing it out of existence. Generally speaking a lot of these problems can be solved within the bounds of current political system by using the state to impose the costs of externalities on economic actors (e.g through taxes or regulation)...the problem is that the political will to do that in any real sense simply does not exist.

As for global-scale construction efforts...well, you may be right - I'm no engineer, and it will be engineers who ultimately answer that question. Given present infrastructure I would guess there would be an initial "investment" of carbon pollution which would be returned in x number of years in terms of lower emissions from the infrastructure you build.

 

[Lexicus]

The problem with plastic straw bans is that for people with disabilities, there's no real good alternative. Paper straws turn to mush, metal and hard plastics can cause injuries.

What did people do before straws? Well, they aspirated their liquids and often ended up with pneumonia.

I didn't realize metal straws could cause injury. That sucks. What are some examples of conditions and disabilities where people have trouble using alternatives to plastic straws? Honest question, I can't really think of any but I obviously have little to no understanding of the issues involved...

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

The context of what you quoted was making our devices more durable. You can halt planned obsolescence by taxing it out of existence. Generally speaking a lot of these problems can be solved within the bounds of current political system by using the state to impose the costs of externalities on economic actors...the problem is that the political will to do that in any real sense simply does not exist.

Or legislating it so that printer ink can't expire before the cartridge goes empty. I can't imagine how much waste of printer ink there is. You also have to take it to get specially recycled too, and there's probably people who don't bother and just dump it.

 

[Snerk]

The problem with plastic straw bans is that for people with disabilities, there's no real good alternative. Paper straws turn to mush, metal and hard plastics can cause injuries.

What did people do before straws? Well, they aspirated their liquids and often ended up with pneumonia.

Nobody is saying that people with disabilities should not be allowed to bring some plastic straws to whatever.

 

[Mouthwash]

So who's going to pay for these new cities?

This is like the third or forth such question you've asked. If you don't get it by now, I don't think repeating myself will help you understand.

The Soviets cared about development, not about sustainability or ecology. They prove the point that we can accomplish huge things when we put our mind to it. We drained the Aral Sea in a matter of decades bro.

So all we need a benevolent central government. I think you just solved politics.

 

[Lexicus]

The problem is regulations and well-crafted taxes will impose costs on business and they need to be prevented from passing the costs on to the consumer with price controls. But then you just drive a lot of the private sector into bankruptcy and the government has to take over everything and oh well I guess we need socialism after all.

So all we need a benevolent central government. I think you just solved politics.

The government I envision isn't benevolent at all. In fact it spends a lot of its time sending people who don't want to get with the climate-change-mobilization program to labor camps and dark, wet prison cells. My guess is that sooner or later this will happen regardless; we've already come long past the point where avoiding a grim, Stalinist resource-rationing situation at some point in the future was possible.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

I didn't realize metal straws could cause injury. That sucks. What are some examples of conditions and disabilities where people have trouble using alternatives to plastic straws? Honest question, I can't really think of any but I obviously have little to no understanding of the issues involved...

in this article cerebral palsy is mentioned:

Dianne Laurine, who lives in Seattle, has cerebral palsy, is quadriplegic and has no use of her extremities. "She is old enough to remember a time before plastic and everybody just used rubber straws," Laurine's caretaker, Bill Reeves, says on her behalf, since she has a severe speech impediment.

"They ended up being disgusting, hard to clean. The advent of plastic in the 1950s changed her life," Reeves says.

When asked what it felt like when the straw ban went into effect without consulting those with disabilities, Laurine audibly repeated one word, "Awful. Awful. Awful."

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Nobody is saying that people with disabilities should not be allowed to bring some plastic straws to whatever.

Yes but if they can't get plastic straws...

 

[Snerk]

Yes but if they can't get plastic straws...

Making plastic straws impossible to obtain is neither realistic nor constructive. I don't think that's going to be an issue. This is about the other 99.99% of use.

 

[Moriarte]

What will stop "localized economies" from stirring up biggest power struggle in history when they start forming blocks and alliances at their leisure?

 

[MaryKB]

The government I envision isn't benevolent at all. In fact it spends a lot of its time sending people who don't want to get with the climate-change-mobilization program to labor camps and dark, wet prison cells. My guess is that sooner or later this will happen regardless; we've already come long past the point where avoiding a grim, Stalinist resource-rationing situation at some point in the future was possible.

Honestly, I'd rather take the climate damage

I really do admire your passion, I can see this cause is so important to you (and I feel this really shows your INFP qualities!), and I wish there was a way I could see your vision as you do, but I'm afraid I don't

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

This is like the third or forth such question you've asked. If you don't get it by now, I don't think repeating myself will help you understand.

Maybe if you explain step to step.

 

[Mouthwash]

The government I envision isn't benevolent at all. In fact it spends a lot of its time sending people who don't want to get with the climate-change-mobilization program to labor camps and dark, wet prison cells. My guess is that sooner or later this will happen regardless; we've already come long past the point where avoiding a grim, Stalinist resource-rationing situation at some point in the future was possible.

Even positing a government that can stick to a benevolent goal is a drastic misreading of how politics work. See, again the Soviet Union (or China).

What will stop "localized economies" from stirring up biggest power struggle in history when they start forming blocks and alliances at their leisure?

A localized economy doesn't require a localized state or army.

Maybe if you explain step to step.

Bottom. Up.

Bottom comes first, top comes last. Not the other way around. Repeat, not top-to-bottom.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

So you build the basements first?

 

[Mouthwash]

Your bottom is getting the