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Can vassals bribe us to war?

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Tarzan737, Dec 31, 2018.

  1. Tarzan737

    Tarzan737 Chieftain

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    in my latest game!!

    i had 2 vassals and 2 other civs in game. and one of the other civs had wc sanction..

    suddenly one of them declared war to me and when i checked diplomacy screen i was did see someone bribed her.

    2 turns later the sanctioned civ declared war to me as well and was bribed but how can it be possible?


    is it intended that vassals can bribe to declare war against themselves or that sanctioned civs can?
     
  2. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo Chieftain

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    I don’t know exactly what happened with you, but I know the master/slave relationship between civs allows them to keep full diplomatic options even if sanctioned.

    You shouldn’t be able to bribe a slave civ to attack its master, but I believe a slave civ can bribe others to attack its master... so in a way bribing someone to attack the civ doing the bribing, as a slave civ always follows its masters war status.
     
  3. Tarzan737

    Tarzan737 Chieftain

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    Thats the thing, i think it should be impossible for a vassal to bribe war against master! Because he declare war against himself.

    Is it only me?
     
  4. civplayer33

    civplayer33 Chieftain

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    Well if we were talking solely about mechanics and how they would be used by human players, I would say that it should be possible, because this kind of war can definitely benefit the vassal.
    Consider the following situation: A civ capitulates after a devastating war. It now suffers from extreme taxes and lack of diplomatic autonomy. The master, even after many turns of vassalage does not want to lower taxes or end the vassalage.
    Let's say the vassal is to the east of the master and to the west of him there is another powerful civ that has a strong military. Bribing that civ to go to war against the master could be very beneficial for the vassal (even though he would have to declare war against that civ as well) because the master cannot force his vassals to actually send any units and the other civ could pommel the master so much that the 3rd criterium for forceful liberation (60% no. of cities and pop of master) is fulfilled after the master loses several cities to the other civ.
    At the same time, the war with the other civ is massively weakening the master, so the vassal can now liberate himself and doesn't have to fear massive retaliation from the master, because the master is not currently capable of it; in fact, the (ex-)vassal may even be able to take some of the master's (perhaps even his former own) cities in the process.

    That being said, since it's usually the AI, who is the vassal, it is doubtful that this kind of risky and nuanced strategy could be used or even understood by the AI. Overall, I'd come down in favor of keeping the possibility of vassals brokering wars against their master but I understand that there are some issues with it.
     
    CppMaster likes this.
  5. Tarzan737

    Tarzan737 Chieftain

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    I rather see AI get vassals more often but not possible for vassals to bribe war against masters, computer or player masters.

    It’s long time since a saw AI getting vassals, it feels that it was happening more often in earlier versions, is it just a feeling?
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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  7. Tarzan737

    Tarzan737 Chieftain

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    Then the the deal price must be higher! Not like Player1 (vassal) pays player2 1 gold or something to declare war against player3! It seems to easy right now even if player 1 and 2 hates player3 it must be a realistic deal!

    But i still dont like the thing that vassals can be able to bribe war against master but it seems it just my way of thinking/playing.
     
  8. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Why not? If a vassal can convince another civ to fight its master, maybe it can hurt the master’s military score enough for the vassal to break free. Seems like a 4D chess option to get out from under someone’s thumb. Just because you got vassalized doesn’t mean you are suddenly playing on your master’s team.
     
  9. Tarzan737

    Tarzan737 Chieftain

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    As you wrote, it is matter of convince! I think war should mostly be the last option and should be expensive! Not something another civ just accept because dislike/hate. What about consequences? If you turn the question, would you declare war to a civ that is 5 times bigger than you because one of his vassals ask you for that? Would you accept whitout something back?
     
  10. CppMaster

    CppMaster Chieftain

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    Does it really happen? AI usually don't accept to declare a war and when they do, it's not cheap.
     
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    @Tarzan737, you are asking a question about what I think is a fair amount for a vassalized civ to offer another AI civ, as if I could possibly know how much the AI offers other AIs in deals, or even what a ‘fair’ amount might be.

    I can’t answer your question because you’re asking an unanswerable question.
     
  12. Leondegrance

    Leondegrance Chieftain

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    I have found in my games that it is not easy to bribe. Not easy to even attempt. Most often the response is "impossible". I haven't even placed my part of the deal on the table and he is already telling me "impossible". Wished there was more strategy possible on dealing. In vanilla it was easier to bribe and things were little bit dynamic, but vanilla Civs were also notorius to take the bribe and then make peace quickly to my dismay and just sit around and enjoy the resources I signed the deal with.

    But the vassal system is promising. I even start to think that I should not conquer a vassal's capital in order to keep him strong and potent. If he is to be of any value to me, he better be strong enough to take care of himself. No need to be strong to conquer, but should be strong enough and capable to defend himself. And to defend my flanks. So leave him his capital and a few city to keep him operational. Levy enough taxes on him to hurt and slow his expansionist ambitions but just don't bring him to his knees. Otherwise he will become easy pray to your opportunistic enemies.
     
  13. Tarzan737

    Tarzan737 Chieftain

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    this is what i try to explain? it would not happen.. maybye rarely if human asks.. but AI seems do that easier.

    i can answer in my point of view.. i know what my vassal have.. don`t i? in my case he had 2 cities and almost nothing.. so i know he can bribe another civ to declare war against me with almost nothing.
    He have some gold and few resources. i don´t think it is a fair deal. the other civilization accepts the deal with almost nothing because of he "hates" me to.


    This is what i usually want. i want to take care of my vassal and i usually give back cities and make good trade deals with him to have a benefit from vassal.
    we even fight same wars because he have to. but still he bribe war against me/us.

    so i still think.. forbid vassals to bribe wars against master
    but
    make AI take their own vassals more often so it´s not only human player that has this benefit..
    i bet you think twice before you make war to a big civ that have vassal(s)
    like small civs have benefit of defensive pacts to stand against big civs..
     

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