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Can we please get Himiko fixed soon?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Curt Carpenter, Apr 6, 2021.

  1. Curt Carpenter

    Curt Carpenter Chieftain

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    I play pretty much exclusively multiplayer with a variety of players. The games have largely devolved into winner is player who gets Himiko. Especially with new barbarian mode, resulting in more city states. Player with Himiko gets to simply decide what city states they will own, and own them. Which is also most of them

    Proposed fix is simple: simply eliminate the faith she gets when using a charge (even when already Suzerain). That faith she currently gets is enough to perpetually pay for her. So unlike every other hero, she pays for herself to be re-hired every era. Ridiculous.
     
    Hellenism Salesman likes this.
  2. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

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    Is she really more broken than Sinbad who gives you 400 gold every charge in an early era?
     
  3. Pietato

    Pietato Platonic Perfection

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    Himiko and Hercules are a broken combo.
     
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  4. walkerjks

    walkerjks Prince

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    Himiko with envoys but no faith would still be situationally useful, so that makes a lot of sense.
     
  5. Siddharth Venkatesh

    Siddharth Venkatesh Warlord

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    You can kill the city states that someone else is pushing a bunch of envoys into. Personally, I think Himiko's value is less in controlling city states and more in creating strong monumentality pushes while buffing up one or two city states specifically. She's a top tier hero for sure.

    Nothing really compares to early Sinbad though. Sinbad finding 2 new continents, 2 new wonders and expending all charges gets you approximately 6 settlers. If you roll a bit better, you can get 8 settlers from him alone before turn 100. It's completely busted.

    Anansi is broken as well, you can get to political philosophy and then knights incredibly quickly with him. He should allow you to kill a neighbor fairly effectively.

    If you want to play a balanced multiplayer game, play with the better balanced game mod and with only the barbarian game mode, maybe corporations mode or no special modes at all. Heroes and legends is by far the most broken mode, secret societies is broken as well since Voidsingers are just too strong. Faith civs are already pretty strong in multiplayer thanks to the Monumentality and the Grand Master's Chapel, Voidsingers push the way over the top.
     
  6. civac

    civac Warlord

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    It's a bit odd you play MP with gimmicky modes like Heroes.

    Also as someone mentioned before, you can just capture the city states near you. This is a good idea in MP to begin with. You get a new city without increasing your settler costs.
     
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  7. Vargas1

    Vargas1 Prince

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    As others have mentioned, seems like the solution is to play MP without heroes and legends. It seems odd to single out Himiko when there are a half dozen heroes who could be described as “broken.” I don’t think the mode was designed to be competitive.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  8. Curt Carpenter

    Curt Carpenter Chieftain

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    Sure, one "solution" could be to play without heroes, but I like heroes. I'd rather they be balanced. And sure, you can (and should) conquer city states near you, but Himiko has range across the whole map. Himiko is still able to deny other players from being Suzerain in almost any city state that Himiko's owner chooses.

    I should add that we always play on 7 Seas, as that seems (to us) like the most interesting map. I don't see Sinbad being anywhere near the same problem there since a single body of water rarely extends to more than 2-3 continents. But I can see how it would be on a water-centric map. Anansi is also not nearly as big of a problem, because an opposing Anansi can only enter your lands if you allow it or at war.
     
  9. Datian

    Datian Warlord

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    Heroes are not meant to be balanced, that's the whole point : they give an unfair advantage to the quickest and luckiest player.
    For them to be balanced, they would have to be much less powerful, and given to everyone, which would be an totally différent matter.
    It's the same with wonders vs ordinary buildings.
     
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  10. Menocchio

    Menocchio Warlord

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    Anansi is powerful for the science and culture boosts, not for stealing luxuries. That part is just for good fun. And as you bring up war, that is by far the best and hardest counter to Himiko: she is a civilian unit. Any military unit will send her right back to the nearest city. Rinse and repeat. If she has been proving to be so much of a problem in your games, then it should be easy to coordinate an anti-Himiko bloc among the other players to lock Himiko out of any city-states you want.
     
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  11. Curt Carpenter

    Curt Carpenter Chieftain

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    I'm not sure how you get to that conclusion. It's fine for every hero to be great when used well. It's not fine for one hero to have such a high correlation with win rate.

    I have not found a wonder with nearly as strong of a win correlation as Himiko.

    There's nothing sacred about hero abilities that they cannot be tuned. Maui was also broken on initial release, and they toned him down. We need the same for Himiko.
     
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  12. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

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    Yeah, heroes are supposed to be stronger than regular units, but there shouldn't be some heroes that are so much more useful than OTHER heroes like Himiko and Hercules are
     
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  13. Datian

    Datian Warlord

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    Again, compare them with wonders : how does the great lighthouse feel against the pyramids ? And is It fair to see a foreign capital with forests to chop and a tile of desert, when aller you have is flat jungle ? It is not, and doesn't pretend to be, and I'm fine with it.

    Of course, this unfairness is harder to accept in multiplayer. Would you happily play Spain against Gilgamesh ? That's why leader selection exists...
     
  14. Menocchio

    Menocchio Warlord

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    In the case of Maui, he was not broken because of anything inherent to the Heroes mode; he was broken because he could make vastly too easy monopolies in Corporations mode. I would still argue that, compared to other heroes, he is not especially impactful. Creating 4 random, non-strategic resources is nice, but extremely situational, and mostly useful for the joy of seeing halfway-decent coastal, tundra, or desert cities. If he had more charges and an ability to create strategic resources (with, necessarily, a higher charge cost) then he would be much more useful and interesting.
     
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  15. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

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    But you just admitted you guys play on the same map all the time...so how is it fair to say he is overpowered for your map and no one else is overpowered? Sinbad is ridiculously good. Hercules is ridiculously good. We don't understand why you are singling out one when there are numerous ones that are incredibly overpowered.
     
  16. Vargas1

    Vargas1 Prince

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    The question remains - why single out Himiko? Hercules has super high strength and can build you three districts with no production. Would you rather have suzerainty over a few city-states or holy sites in your first three cities plus an easy takeover of your closest neighbor (or campuses, or harbors, etc.)? Anansi can fly you to political philosophy and horseback riding while also screwing over your opponents (you don't need open borders to pluck out luxuries just outside their borders. Hippolyta spends 30 turns being near impossible to kill while also healing your next strongest unit. Sinbad gets you an insane amount of early gold, not to mention discovery of isolated city-states, all opponents, etc. Beowulf is extra strong and can take out units without taking any damage.

    No doubt Himiko is very strong, just like Paititi is very strong or (as mentioned by @Datian) starting near flat desert with choppable features is strong. But I don't see how Himiko's strengths are so out of whack with the strengths of several other heroes.
     
  17. Curt Carpenter

    Curt Carpenter Chieftain

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    I already conceded that maybe Sinbad is over-powered on a water-centric map. I don't think Hercules is over-powered. Very good for sure, but like most heroes becomes more and more expensive to re-use.

    My whole problem with Himiko is that unlike all other heroes there is effectively NO COST to re-use her, since her charges generate the faith to pay for her cost. All I'm saying is that she would STILL be a solid hero even without the bonus faith.
     
  18. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Initially, I felt Maui was going to be very under-powered, since 4 charges isn't much, and there's still a decent change you get a dud charge like popping wheat or sheep down. But after playing a bit, I think he's balanced just about right. Still can be super strong with monopolies, but since they changed him to not be able to pop a new 100% monopoly of 1 lux, that's fine.

    But yeah, a few of the others I do think are truly way too strong. Like, it's one thing to give them a unique special bonus that can be used for non-wartimes. But yeah, with Himiko being able to pay for herself, that does unbalance her heavily. I mean, in suzerained CS, she already gets the benefit of being able to levy for free, which is huge by itself. But the fact that she can pump so many charges in, and is also a very strong unit in her own right, really does make her way OP.

    Hercules I think is over-powered too, not just because those charges and free districts are so strong, but because after that, his base strength is one of the top heroes too. Like, it would be one think to recruit him to build your districts, but then you get a slightly lesser hero afterwards. But his base strength is also the highest of all the heroes, I think, which just makes him doubly powerful. Like Anansi is super powerful for charges, but then once those charges are done, isn't a unit you can really base your army around.

    But overall, I do think there's a strong imbalance in the heroes. While even the worst hero is still really good, and in the right situation, easily can change opinions on who the best one is, I think in an average game, I find myself absolutely running for Hercules, Himiko, and Anansi (and sometimes Sinbad), whereas the rest of them are more in the "they're the only one available" or "I need a hero" mode.
     
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  19. Siddharth Venkatesh

    Siddharth Venkatesh Warlord

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    I actually agree with you that Himiko being free to recall makes her OP in a very different way, and a more spammy annoying way. I think city state suzes are somewhat overrated in multiplayer since every city state can fairly easy be murdered, but the faith Himiko generates is absolutely insane. No matter which other hero I get, Himiko will fit every plan, since she always pays for herself. But I think the bigger issue is that unless you tone down all the heroes, playing with heroes is going to be an rng fest. I would also love a multiplayer balance patch that significantly tones down both the impact and cost of heroes, but I think this is best suited for a mod, not official fixes. Firaxis clearly did not build this mode with MP in mind.

    Btw, Sinbad is super broken on Pangaea as well, not just water maps. He just makes any non-coastal civ unviable imo in comparison to a coastal civ, because getting him early is far too much gold along with a guaranteed classical golden for monumentality (converting that gold to settlers even cheaper) or free inquiry (science snowball + quick kill of neighbor). Even on pangaea, you usually find some new continents with Sinbad and there are usually coastal barbs to kill.
     
  20. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Emperor

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    how the heck is Himiko more broken than others?
     
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