can you imagine playing V in...

lampshade

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 24, 2005
Messages
83
... 5 years time?

because i'm bored already. when you played IV, you were paying consideration to the immediate, the mid game, the long game, your potential victory conditions, what would be your prod., economic, science city. how you would develop and choose those cities (eg. economic: religion, tile output, buildings, trade routes, how diplomacy would affect them, etc.) who you should develop as long term friends and who could buffer you against who. when you should expand to another continent and could you afford to keep the colonies or would you have to vassal them, if you were going to vassal them, how long would you have to support them for. if you vassalised the ai, could you give them all your techs or could they escape being vassals by expanding. who were your competitors and how could you alienate them from their friends if they were going for religious or diplo, could you get to their main culture city in time if they were going for culture. was it worth switching civics to placate a dangerous enemy. could you outculture an enemy city and swamp it to take their crucial tiles and starve them. literally dozens of competing layers of aspects that you had to balance to play the game successfully.

now it's wait for the ai to attack (which they will but you won't know why), soak it up knowing they have no reserve, then walk in take their main cities and raze the rest when they quit and give you them. but that sounds like i'm blaming the AI for the game's inadequacies which i'm not.

having given this game a really good go over the last few weeks i'm running out of enthusiasm. i really worried that this game would keep me in the house for 3months solid and that i'd be playing it for years obsessively.

the depth has gone. the depth has GONE. this isn't far away from civrev. WHO are they chasing after with this game? what demographic or group of gamers? even The Settlers is more "immersive" and complex than this.
 
5 years ago you wouldn't have imagined that CivIV would be where it is now.
 
Expansions and patches can change a game dramatically. I'm sure they'll listen and act on the feedback given, and, as few of the problems are with core engine (mostly balance) it shouldn't be too hard to fix things up in to a much better game.
 
5 years ago you wouldn't have imagined that CivIV would be where it is now.

Hmmm.... not so sure about that.

The two big additions in Warlords were the "Great General" GP -- which was a pretty obvious addition -- and vassals, which was perhaps a little less obvious.

BTS added corporations (a relatively natural extension of religion, IMO), events (completely new and unexpected), and espionage (which most people didn't care for).

I would argue that the BTS addition of events was really the only thing one couldn't have truly thought would be coming (I love(d) events -- in fact, I changed the core events file to make them all non-global, active each game, and significantly bumped up the probabilities).

There's a religions folder in the core install, so I have to think that's coming back in one form or another.... but there are other aspects of V that I just find so distasteful that I'm not sure how you expansion around or over them (happiness being the most glaring, but also the static pathing of SPs as a replacement for government/civics, etc)
 
hey good point and i should remember that.

the base is solid, i'll give them that. i hope they've planned this as a platform for the next 5 years.

combat is better, cultural spread, 1UPT, and hex's are better. a lot of the core is improved. but all the toys are missing.

I would argue that the BTS addition of events was really the only thing one couldn't have truly thought would be coming (I love(d) events -- in fact, I changed the core events file to make them all non-global, active each game, and significantly bumped up the probabilities).

yeah i loved events too. it felt like the real world. the micromanagers and warmongers didn't like them because it messed with their plans. i always loved this game because it wasn't so "gamey", it really felt like making a CIVILISATION and living in a world. that's totally missing right now it's Rome Total War witihout the battles.
 
hey good point and i should remember that.

the base is solid, i'll give them that. i hope they've planned this as a platform for the next 5 years.

combat is better, cultural spread, 1UPT, and hex's are better. a lot of the core is improved. but all the toys are missing.

Try going back and playing a game of patched, unmodded CivIV Vanilla. Vastly different game to BtS.
 
I can see myself playing, but it's hard to say. It'll depend on what's modified since release and it'll depend on Civ6. I don't see myself going back to Civ4 at the moment either for what that's worth.
 
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

i know but remember first playing and meeting monty and realising he was a psycho. wondering what he would do next and what you should do. remember getting to know mansa and zyakob and realising you could make friends and tech your way to permanent alliance victory.

the leaders have no personalities.

and they're the same leaders all over again. elizabeth, catherine, monty, bismark, yawn yawn. i'm already fed up of their meaningless bon mots. oh elizabeth has come to tell me she doesn't like me. so what? i've been trading with gandhi forever and he'll still attack in the next 50 turns. pact of cooperation. meaningless. pact of secrecy. meaningless.

remember those threads about what we were excited about seeing in V? we didn't get any of those exciting things.

the reviewers massively conned us too.
 
Expansions and patches can change a game dramatically. I'm sure they'll listen and act on the feedback given, and, as few of the problems are with core engine (mostly balance) it shouldn't be too hard to fix things up in to a much better game.

I don't agree that the core engine's problems are just "balance".

It is the whole thing.
You aren't building and fostering a civilization anymore, you play around with a set of cities to provide you with luxuries to grow and make money which you spend to bribe City States.

In two months this concept will smell like cheese.

If they don't redesign it completely, I think it will be the last iteration of the Civ series.
 
Your thread title made me laugh simply for the fact that games dont seem to last as long for me now as they used to, I can remember playing the first starcraft on and off consitstanly for 5 years. These days it seems like the most milage I would get out of a game would be a year if im lucky, I played civ 3 alot, I got civ 4 but at the time was to busy with work so I did not play it much, got civ rev and liked it, now I have civ 5 and since I never got to play bts I guess it seems fine to me. The only problems I have should be fixed with a patch soon as they are major problems imo first the AI is very irrational they insult you even if you are more powerfull than them ex I had taken over my content and most of the one next to me the ottomans had two citys left, and were far behind in resarch and military, but there leader kept sending me messages like "how is my fav citystate doing" this just does not make sense, the other problem I have is a glitch I was not freinds with a city state but they had a barb attacking them so I attack and kill the bard I get a message saying I gained favor with them, then next turn bam Im on there bad side for having a unit in there land.
 
lampshade:
i know but remember first playing and meeting monty and realising he was a psycho. wondering what he would do next and what you should do. remember getting to know mansa and zyakob and realising you could make friends and tech your way to permanent alliance victory.

the leaders have no personalities.

and they're the same leaders all over again. elizabeth, catherine, monty, bismark, yawn yawn. i'm already fed up of their meaningless bon mots. oh elizabeth has come to tell me she doesn't like me. so what? i've been trading with gandhi forever and he'll still attack in the next 50 turns. pact of cooperation. meaningless. pact of secrecy. meaningless.

remember those threads about what we were excited about seeing in V? we didn't get any of those exciting things.

the reviewers massively conned us too.

Remember that the absence of leader personalities may be a combination of a new, unfamiliar diplomacy system and some poor AI behaviour in general. There may be very diverse personalities in there. Even if there aren't, there probably will be in 5 years time thanks to patches, expansions and mods. I always played with random personalities in CivIV so that I wouldn't be able to predict an opponents preferences until diplomacy had been long established, and I still do play with random personalities, so I can't comment on whether or not the personalities are less obvious.

The leader list may be a bit predictable, but again, easily editable and in 5 years will certainly have a bit more variety to it. CivIV's initial leader list was probably even more predictable. I'm just glad Shaka Zulu is gone.

I didn't pay attention to CivV until the first time I played it, so I didn't know what I was going to be playing. Some changes I like. Some I don't.

I don't buy enough games to make reading reviewers worthwhile - only CivIV, Warlords and BtS in the last 6 years - so I can't comment on the accuracy of the reviews for CivV, or on the accuracy of reviews in general, or more specifically on the accuracy of reviews for turn based strategy games. There were, however, very positive reviews for the initial release of CivIV.

But:
1) the game engine should allow the game to develop nicely, as The Great Apple said,
2) Expansions will probably add new features to the game in the same way that they did with CivIV, and
3) Customisation will eventually lead to the point where people can play best of all Civ mods, e.g. I have in my head a game that looks like CivII, as most of the CivV features, but replaces two of them (unique abilities and social policies) with systems based on the CivIV equivalents.
 
I just got done playing a round and I have to say I love this game alot, but they need to fix the ai quickly, I was playing and just out of the blue france and japan declair war on me for no reason, the funny thing is I took out france first then tried to do peace talks with japan and he would not even talk to me then as I was taking him out just a few turns latter he offers me 600 gold, 24 gpt, one of his towns,and a luxury resource:lol:.
I dont mind if the civs are unpredictable but I just dont want all of them to be warmongers, and if they are at least give you a sign they just dow right out of the blue even if your trading with them.
 
I just got done playing a round and I have to say I love this game alot, but they need to fix the ai quickly, I was playing and just out of the blue france and japan declair war on me for no reason, the funny thing is I took out france first then tried to do peace talks with japan and he would not even talk to me then as I was taking him out just a few turns latter he offers me 600 gold, 24 gpt, one of his towns,and a luxury resource:lol:.
I dont mind if the civs are unpredictable but I just dont want all of them to be warmongers, and if they are at least give you a sign they just dow right out of the blue even if your trading with them.

It's not so much that they're all warmongers - if you go the whole game without being "ahead" - you can play without a single war.

The problem is that diplomacy right now is basically:

IF human_player = winning
THEN Action = Declare War
 
Jon Shafer should be punished for what he has done to the series... or at least replaced.

Thankfully, the lead designers for Civ are like one term Presidents. JS will have a few years to try and correct what he made then he'll be replaced. His PG version of Civ can slowly sink into the background and in all likelihood will go down as the fifth place Civ.

Hopefully he'll be replaced by someone who understands what Civ is all about and go back to its roots and make it fun again. Someone with considerable experience who understands the big picture.
 
It's not so much that they're all warmongers - if you go the whole game without being "ahead" - you can play without a single war.

The problem is that diplomacy right now is basically:

IF human_player = winning
THEN Action = Declare War

Yes, it surely looks that way. (In this respect it does resemble Civ3, actually, though I think 3 was somewhat subtler.) But it implies a really boring dynamic, micromanaging your position in the 'charts' so you're not number 1 - until you feel confident and finally go for it. Smashing all real or potential opposition from day one is obviously more exciting. And I think that's what this game expects you to do. It's not really Civilization, it's a wargame with a broken AI.
 
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