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Can you win a cultural victory without tourism?

Discussion in 'Playthroughs and Photojournals' started by CrazyG, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    The title says it all. My goal is to win a cultural victory, while having the per-turn tourism still be 0. Hopefully, this can help us to assess how strong bonus tourism is.

    Let's take a look at my start, and see if this even possible. For this challenge, I choose the Aztec.
    Spoiler Starting Position :

    20200105044002_1.jpg


    Spoiler Challenge Rules :

    I cannot ever allow my tourism to be at 1 or higher. This means no great works, no arenas or any buildings that require an arena, no hotels, and a whole lot more.

    It also blocks several social policies (including the statecraft opener), and means I can only conquer a city if I'm sure there is no great work inside.

    My settings are Deity difficulty, continents, standard speed, standard size.
    No ancient ruins, no events, all other settings standard.
     
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Spoiler Early Decisions :

    I build monument first and research pottery. The Aztec can skip shrine, because 5 kills is enough faith to get a pantheon. I started on cocoa, which is great for early growth and has a cool +2 culture monopoly.

    My pathfinder finds two city states to the south. So, after the monument finishes, all of my gold and production goes to jaguars.

    I took tradition as my first social policy, instantly going to 6 population. I researched animal husbandry and the wheel after pottery finished.



    Spoiler I Love Jaguars :

    I'm able to get some early tribute to help get ahead. I bully Riga first, for gold, and use it to buy another jaguar. I wait for Prague to reach 4 population, then I can heavy tribute him for culture.
    20200105045328_1.jpg
    The fourth jaguar escorts a settler while the others clean up some barbarians in the south. Unfortunately for me, on Deity the city states have 3 starting warriors, and are usually able to clear our the camps by themselves, denying me faith and gold.


    Spoiler Pantheon Choice :

    After killing 4 barbarian brutes, and earning 12 faith from majesty I have 50 faith and the first big choice comes on this turn. I've found another culture CS, who I was also able to bully, and so I'm already ahead in social policies.
    20200105050618_1.jpg
    My first settler is already in position, and my jaguars have found more barbarian camps. I have yet to meet a major civ, which is dissapointing for my jaguars.

    This start looks strong. What pantheon would you take?
     
  3. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    I'd probably take Goddess of Wisdom or God of Commerce.
     
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  4. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    It would make my eye twitch to take anything other than God of War as the Aztec though special circumstances require special choices I suppose.

    Thinking about this challenge:

    - you can still work your guilds, just bulbing the great writers/artists/musicians.

    - you'll want as much culture/turn as you can get to buff historical events. Do they only consider culture/turn in calculating the resulting tourism bomb or does instant tourism get counted too? That might matter I imagine. Do you know how all the forms of instant tourism are calculated by chance?

    -I think the AI will move their great works out of threatened cities so that should help you somewhat.

    -religion could be super helpful in this challenge. Founding with Way of the Pilgrim could be one way to go (culture/tourism from spreading). Byzantines may have been better for that strategy though perhaps?
     
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I actually forgot about this belief when I was planning. It probably is the way to go. But at the same time, my goal is to play a pretty normal cultural game, and see if

    I cannot take artistry (or if I do, I can't build universities or world wonders because then I'll get tourism), but I want golden ages, which is why I went Aztec (also early faith). I'll note that this challenge is going to be really difficult (no Arenas hurts a lot), and I just think Aztec are overall a really strong civ.
    Nope
    I wanted a pantheon with culture. God of War Aztec can be fun but its very one dimensional.
     
  6. bigcat88

    bigcat88 King

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    Just add building with tourism -2000. And build arenas and GW and play in usual style.
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    When or if this challenge fails, I'll try adding -2000 tourism to a basic building. It turns out that no artistry and no great works hurts your culture A LOT, which hurts your bonus tourism.
     
  8. DeAnno

    DeAnno Prince

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    Looking at all that Jungle terrain I would've been tempted a lot by Renewal.
     
  9. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    With tradition I find renewal to be really, really bad, because it doesn't affect specialists or great person tiles.
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    For the pantheon I took Goddess of Protection. It hits two culture per city, and gives me some culture and faith immediately. I also considered God-King, which would help long term, but it looks like isolated so I can't count on getting to much faith from killing.

    Spoiler 4 City Tradition :

    You can see Tlateolco, my final city to settle, which has a natural wonder in it. I'm currently just running my jaguars around the map killing barbs for faith and tributing the city states. I intentionally don't clear the camps, so they might produce more faith for me. I completed my cocoa monopoly on turn 79, this is a very high culture start. I'm teching towards mathematics to try and build the hanging gardens (I succeed).
    20200105062230_1.jpg


    Spoiler Hey There Neighbor :

    My neighbor across the sea is Persia, thank god there is an ocean between us. I completed tradition on turn 102, and got my religion at some point (Divine Inheritance and Inspiration)
    20200105100125_1.jpg


    Spoiler Oracle and Second Social Policy :

    Oracle is mine, education is next to build University of Sankore. I open Piety this turn. I can't take Statecraft's opener because it gives tourism. I could take some artistry policies, but one gives universities 4 tourism, and I want to build universities.
    20200105102958_1.jpg


    Spoiler War and Enhancing :

    Persia sends his navy, and I get my second Great Prophet. The war is nice, its basically just Persia feeding me faith and gold, he never tries to get land units across. You can see I'm still farming barbs up north. I've changed from tributing to allying the CS on my continent, and I've begun to explore the world and meet the other players. Currently I'm teching for Notre Dame.
    20200106030844_1.jpg


    What enhancer beliefs would you take?
     
  11. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    Iconography or Zealotry? Everything else either benefits from spreading (that's tough if you're isolated), gives tourism, or just doesn't fit probably?
     
  12. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I took iconography and mastery for my beliefs.

    Spoiler Bug? :

    When I kill a unit with a city, sometimes I get faith in all my cities, not just the target. Weird.
    20200106034611_1.jpg


    Spoiler Reformation :
    I found Egypt on his own continent, he didn't get a religion so I give him mine. When I reform I take defender of the faith, it is the highest culture option. I also hit the Renaissance via Chemistry, and I built the Leaning Tower and Notre Dame.
    20200106041112_1.jpg


    Spoiler Power of Jaguars :

    This lone jaguar was just supposed to just explore the continent, but he has been slaughtering barbs over here. Easily at least 300 faith and gold and hundreds of influence. 20200106050731_1.jpg


    Spoiler Tourism So far :

    I'm getting around 200-ish tourism per turn from bonus yields, mostly historic events. I only ever completed like five foreign trade routes this game, I know most of the forum finds the strong but the AI always does something to stop them.
    20200106052144_1.jpg
     
  13. DeAnno

    DeAnno Prince

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    I'm starting to slowly come around to the belief that Iconography is just OP. I guess it's a good reason to race to enhancers though. I also choose Defender of the Faith a lot just for the wall culture, it feels like a lot of reformation beliefs take forever to give you much of anything.
     
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  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Spoiler World Congress Host :

    I'm the first to printing press while knowing everyone, so I get to propose cultural heritage sites (?). I want culture to wonders, I have a lot. Persia settles an annoying city. When I capture it (I do), I immediately go to 81% combat penalty against him, which makes the rest of my wars an absolute nightmare.
    20200106133220_1.jpg


    Spoiler Great Musicians :

    I get my first great musician, the tooltip here is wrong. One says I get 6262 tourism, another says I get 100. I checked this turn, and the turn after, and I actually got zero. Ugh oh.
    20200106144755_1.jpg


    Spoiler Tourism against the world :

    So far I haven't gained much, but apparently I'm rising slowly. America got vassalized by Carthage and is just doing terribly in general.
    20200106144811_1.jpg


    Spoiler Third Social Policy Tree :

    Which should I take? 218 is a pretty early turn to reach this. I got Chichen Itza and Sistene Chapel, I think I'll have golden ages forever with the Aztec UA.
    20200106145425_1.jpg


    Spoiler War With Persia :

    I slaughter some ships for faith and gold. In the north, I slowly take Gordium (he has military techs I don't because I'm rushing archeology).
    20200107054405_1.jpg


    Spoiler CS Betrayal :

    I allied all the CS on my continent for a while, but Egypt and Persia will not stop dumping envoys into these two. Both are at more than 900 influence. I'm conquering Riga for the golden age, and I'll try to swing Prague then war Egypt. I was hoping to be friends, he has my religion, but alas it can't be done.
    20200107062635_1.jpg


    Spoiler Success but Failure :

    I started taking fewer photos here, sorry. I passed World's Fair and built the Crystal Palace. I built the Eiffel Tower, Slater Mill, and Porcelain Tower too. The problem is my tourism is still not increasing very quickly and I've lost my tech lead.
    20200107070330_1.jpg


    Anyways, ideologies are near. Which would you take? Also which 3rd social policy tree to take?
     

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  15. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    I think to win per your challenge, you would need to go Imperialism into Autocracy, just for the policy that gives Tourism upon taking cities. You're not going to win via tourism against Carthage without taking her down.
     
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  16. kenneth1221

    kenneth1221 Warlord

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    Ah, the "this is actually a domination victory now" approach.

    Interesting that musicians don't produce anything if you don't have tourism per turn, but not entirely unexpected.
     
  17. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    I've been consistently impressed by @CrazyG and his challenges. But if he can actually win this through tourism without going autocracy...

    Maybe if he had taken tourism off buildings and great works. But this one feels too hard without autocracy. Prove me wrong though CrazyG!
     
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I'm surprised you bagged the crystal palace, as it looks like many of the AIs still have a lot of cities and of course those big production bonuses.
     
  19. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I can usually lead the world in production as tradition. Divine Inheritance + Golden Ages. I think my capital alone has more production than the weaker civs.
     
  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Spoiler A Look At Tourism :

    Things aren't going well. I'm barely denting Carthage, and I think both Egypt and France will be strong enough to resist for a while too.
    20200108070250_1.jpg


    Spoiler Industry and Autocracy :

    I did want to try doing this peacefully, but there was no way it would happen. I took industry because I think it will give the most culture and I need high culture to fuel historic events. Futurism is my first tenet for the tourism.


    Spoiler I Hate Persia :

    Lebrensaum is my second policy, look at that sweet land grab. He has an 81% combat bonus against me, plus his golden age bonuses. Even with my big tech lead my units can only win in my own territory. My navy can't really do anything. I also completed a single trade route, Poland is friendly to me because he hates Persia and put a city on my continent.
    20200109044234_1.jpg


    Spoiler World Events :

    Carthage lost its capital to France, who looks like he will have the strongest culture this game. France, Egypt, and Persia all declare war on me. I lose all trade routes but one. I avoid sanctions by a single vote. American, Carthage, and Shoshone have denounced me.

    France passes me in science.

    I can't beat Persia. His lancers beat my landships. He has a large navy, and I can't move my ships outside my territory, so his frigates beat up my land army. The city slowly gets withered down, but I have a ton of war wariness and I'm going bankrupt without my trade routes. Even if I take Susa, his navy can retake it.


    Spoiler Conclusion? :

    I was not able to win a cultural victory without tourism, challenge failed. Maybe if I'm patient I can grind long enough, weaken the other civs, and technically win by culture (but really it would be domination). Though really I'm not sure if I even could, I already lost my tech lead and Persia has that enormous anti-warmonger bonus.

    This was meant to be a test how important per turn tourism was compared to overall tourism. The answer is............its very important. Even with my massive culture output I don't get much from historic events. I wanted to try really using trade routes, but the world just became hostile too quickly.
     

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