Canada as a Civ?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Varitok, May 28, 2016.

  1. Haig

    Haig Deity

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    I'm Finnish and I want Canada in the game.

    I'd like them to have bonuses in Civ 6 terms to diplomacy and Government/Civics, they are a model democracy and active in peacekeeping.

    In World Wars the British Empire used them as shock troops so Assault Infantry would be a good UU. Another UU could be a native scout representing the Settler period.

    Note! They have been a fan favorite for such a long time so I'm willing to bet that we get them either on expansion or in some DLC.

    darko82:
    I totally need Poland in the game too asap, they are a fan favorite too and as mr. Ed Beach is designing, he will probably get them in sometime. Like I wrote in another thread he's a Thirty Years War fan so maybe we get Into the Renaissance scenario part 2.
     
  2. darko82

    darko82 Emperor

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    I would rather see Inuit. Yes, Ed mentioned them while talking about mods. I would like this country to be associated with arctic climate - like Finland :)
     
  3. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    Canada works best as a city state. Actually a lot of modern nation states fit that geopolitical niche where they are regionally important or is known for some specific thing but are not culturally distinct enough. That said what civs get included outside the core 16 or so civs that get added with each game tends to be about fan service and targeting certain markets. So yes Canada could well make it in.

    Given our disproportionate reprentation in the Fandom I'd bet on it.
     
  4. Staler87

    Staler87 Warlord

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    It's kinda weird how foreigners talk about other countries not being culturally distinct. I'm Canadian and although i don't necessarily believe that Canada should be a civ I don't think it is reasonable as someone who, I'm assuming, has never lived in Canada any period of time to comment on our culture.

    Personally I think a civ should have to be around for at least 1000 years (in one form or another) before making it in. You can't have a 100 year history and be considered a civilization. A nation or nation-state? Maybe. But a civilization? No.

    But if the devs are insistent on putting upstart nations in the game with no real history beyond the beginning of the industrial era (and they do seem most insistent on this) I don't see why Canada shouldn't be an option.
     
  5. TPangolin

    TPangolin Just the worst person

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    Source :eek:
     
  6. darko82

    darko82 Emperor

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    He reffered to Civ 5 mods. That is all. But I think it can be a nice civ to represent that part of the world.

    Here is the source, in which he mentioned you can play (among others) as an Inuit mod in Civ V.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTwARovEJ8
     
  7. TPangolin

    TPangolin Just the worst person

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    Thanks for that - that's a neat video. As one of the creators of the Inuit mod, it's really nice to be noticed in such a way.

    I guess I should also chime in with my proverbial two cents seeing as I'm also the one of the developers of Colonialist Legacies, the modding group that adds in custom Civilizations such as Mexico, Australia, Canada etc.

    The common line of thought against the inclusion of Canada and the aforementioned nations is that their cultural and historical significance is limited, and as such does not "deserve" to be included in an official title. As a preliminary line of thought, I also think that just because an individual is from either Mexico, Canada, or Australia, it doesn't give their argument (that their home country doesn't deserve inclusion) any additional legitimacy - you can be from a country and be somewhat ignorant of the unique cultural and societal impact that your nation has had in the past.

    Anyone saying that Canada is America Lite is being pretty intellectually dishonest and playing into pretty elastic forms of mental gymnastics. Many fall back to the name of the game; Civilization to prove their point. In essence this is the same type of reasoning that some use against inclusion of groups like the Inuit, Cree and any other myriad of culturally unique Native American societies. It's an easy fallback to say that to warrant inclusion in the game an entity needs to first adhere to the definition of 'Civilization'. Unfortunately, when you have civs like The Huns, Polynesia, Venice, Shoshone, The Zulu etc, as official Firaxis civs, the argument loses weight seeing as Firaxis now has more clear and firm grasp on what their definition of "Civilization" means. You can disagree all you want with that definition, as is your subjective right - but Firaxis calls the shots around here and the presupposed, and assumed rule book was thrown out the window when such civs were included. As such, the definition that Firaxis uses is no longer the presupposed and assumed "the process by which a society or place reaches an advanced stage of social development and organization", but instead "any type of culture, society, etc., of a specific place, time, or group".

    You can absolutely say that with all certainty - all 43 of Firaxis' Civs meet the definition and criteria of the latter as opposed the significantly lesser amount that adheres to the former.

    With all this in mind, you have to ask yourself - is Canada as a culture, society, nation, history and peoples significantly different from those that surround it? As I said earlier - saying that Canada is America Lite is being pretty intellectually dishonest. Canada's history is so much more than Maple Syrup and Avro Arrows. Firaxis, especially with the BNW and G&K civs have really subverted the opinions of many by including civs that don't adhere to the presupposed definition, but to their own. It's evidently more about culture, people and society, and not technological and societal advancement. Essentially, the result of this is that Firaxis has treated civs like Venice, Shoshone and The Zulu with the same legitimacy as entities like China, Arabia and Russia. This means that Firaxis are going above and beyond to tell stories that are worth telling.

    The question to ask yourself is thus: Is Canada a story worth telling? Of course your answer is subjective, but it's the question you should all be asking yourself instead of trying to shoehorn in whether or not an entity deserves inclusion based on a definition and criteria that Firaxis never used in the first place. Remember, the more divergent a culture, peoples and society is from the norm, the more dynamic you can make their gameplay mechanics. It's just something to keep in mind.

    Personally, I'm excited to mod Canada into the game ASAP, mainly because there is so much interesting history we can work with - from Voyageurs, to the Hudson's Bay Company, to Storm Troopers, to their ardent diplomacy of the 20th century.
     
  8. Absolution

    Absolution King

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    Adding Canada will be an extreme commercial move by Firaxis.
    A state that has no historical importance, and a little cultural significant compared to civilizations that usually appear in civ games.
    You all just want to see your hometown on the citylist, or you want to build a North American scenario. Either than those childish requests, I don't see any reason to add Canada.

    Maybe Kannada (Veera Ballala II or Krishna Deva Raya as leaders, Vijayanagara be the capital).
     
  9. darko82

    darko82 Emperor

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    As some people from Canada think, it is a good civ to be included as a City State.
     
  10. Absolution

    Absolution King

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    (Asking out of pure lack of knowledge) - During the political development of independent Canada, was there anything similar to a city-state around there?

    I do think that history should tell if we add x as a city state or not, and I would not like to use it as a compromise. For example - I don't like the idea of Hattusa as a city state.
    Either add the Hittites :)goodjob:) or forget about them (or maybe give their name to a barb city like in civ4).
     
  11. darko82

    darko82 Emperor

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    There are always choices, you know. This is just a game, and it cannot include everything people want. There are modders, which Firaxis support to a good extent (some might complain though), just for this reason. Because they know that they cannot content everyone. And it is great they support modding just for this reason, though, probably for other reasons, too. :)

    All I hope is that modding will be more supported and easy than in Civ V. Though, I know they realise how important the modding community is....

    "Easy"? Well, easy to mod a smiple stuff like the music or sounds, which were quite difficult to mod in CIV V. That's just an example. I'm not talking about DLL stuff or something, which in fact did not make it possible to make music play according to eras etc.

    Music is imporant to me because it makes me feel immeresed somehow. But it must be the right music, the only one I feel good about.
     
  12. Absolution

    Absolution King

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    Sorry but I don't see how it is related to my post...
    Did you post in the right thread?
     
  13. Robynsegg

    Robynsegg Chieftain

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    This brings up a good point that was lost in Civ V. In Civ IV (and to a limited extent with the excellent CP mod of Civ V) some cities could be separated out into a new Civ that is a part of the older, and over time they became their own countries. You see that with all of the countries in the Americas, and in the breakup of all of the great dynasties through the ages. (The whole idea that all civilizations were all started at the exact same time exists solely in the 'realism' of games like this...in reality all countries are in a constant state of flux. I would be very surprised if the corporate capitalism of present-day America would last a thousand years, because if it does I would assume they would take over my country (Oh Canada *sob*) long before that happens (but if the USA breaks up, perhaps Canada may survive much longer than the US? Who knows? I am playing no favourites, and don't own a crystal ball)

    Regardless, I am looking forward to seeing how Civ VI addresses post-colonial civilizations in general, because they exist everywhere. (Hello, France/Germany/Austria/almost all in Africa and many, many more that are all actually younger as a country than Canada. Look it up!) The only ways that the two countries listed (Canada, Australia) are similar to the US is that (1) all spoke English, and (2) the new overlords ruthlessly suppressed/committed genocide against the native peoples. I don't know enough about the countries in Central and South America to know if that was true of those countries as well, (though I would hazard a guess that this was true there too.)

    It would be very intriguing if this could be true of Civ VI, that new civs are constantly being born and thriving, while old ones flounder and die out?
     
  14. Robynsegg

    Robynsegg Chieftain

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    I'll chose to not respond to the 'childish' comment or the aspersions to my country's name. (In the hope that you are not being deliberately insulting, Canada is actually from Kanata, an Iroquois word meaning 'village or settlement', rather than from the Hoysala Empire of what is today India)

    Whether or not you feel something is important relates totally subjectively, as the example I make should make it personally relevant to you. You may view the creation of Israel as being culturally significant, while someone else may argue that Israel has yet to contribute anything culturally, historically or in any other way except to perhaps destabilize the Middle East, or perhaps how to take a problem in your cultural borders (Europe) and make it someone else's (Middle East) problem? For those two problems, perhaps the creators may wish to create something like an espionage token rather than create a civilization for it?

    (I think the creators of Civ got it right by offering them as a separate civ, btw, but again that is entirely subjective to my own experiences, and I have Jewish friends)
     
  15. Absolution

    Absolution King

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    My whole point was that civ choosing should not be too personal, and in response you tried to make me take it personal as well.
    No, I don't think Israel should be included in civilization. At least not the current state.
    And no, I didn't think Canada has any etymological link to Kannadigas, but the point is - people demand the modern states that they live in.
    I just think it is tragical to add Canada whereas several other significant and unique cultures, or simply strong and influential powers, are not represented.
    You can mod Canada, or even regions inside Canada, or whatever you wish. But I really fear they put Canada in the original game instead of some super interesting and varied civs (with Kannada being just a fine example).

    And just to make it clear - it has anything to do with anti-modernism, disrespect to Canada, or any kind of racism - I feel that adding Canada would be like adding Chile after you already had Argentina, Brazil and Colombia.
     
  16. ImperialChaos

    ImperialChaos President

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    I do hope we see Canada in Civ VI. I doubt we'd see it in the vanilla version but more likely in an expansion.
     
  17. Robynsegg

    Robynsegg Chieftain

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    I would agree with you, and I was not trying to insult you or your country, just showing how all of life is subjective to your own experience. Even as a 4th (or more?) generation Canadian, I don't think that Canada exists except as another offshoot of a country that expanded beyond what it was able to control (England). But I am very interested to see how Civ VI will accommodate very large civilizations, whether you will have the resulting rebellions (America, India) or peaceful separations (Canada, Australia, NZ). Perhaps they will show how difficult it is to run an empire that spans continents, and the followup of creating new ones from the ashes?(Genghis Khan created the biggest empire the world has ever seen...and one of the quickest to completely fall apart (I believe...not an expert on this (or any other) civ, so I could be wrong?)

    I believe it is impossible to know everything about everything...and if you did, how intensely boring would life be?
     
  18. Tzep

    Tzep Chieftain

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    I find it funny that before whenever "Canada as a civ" came up in Civ IV and V suggestions feeds, ALL the people would be like "No. Canada is NOT a great nation and does not deserve to be in game."

    With Brave New World, there seems to be less resistance. "Well, If Brazil was a civ, I guess the standards are low enough to allow Canada."

    I mean no offense to Brazilians.
     
  19. Staler87

    Staler87 Warlord

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    Just to clarify the British actually created the largest empire ever rather than the Mongols. The Mongols only had the largest continuous land empire. The Mongol Empire lasted for almost a century until it got broken apart upon the death of Kublai Khan who ruled the empire during its largest extent. Ghengis Khan really just kicked off the massive expansion he didn't actually create the largest continuous land empire ever.
     
  20. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Alexander's was probably quickest to fall apart. (Fragmented on his death at a young age).
     

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