Canadian Elections!

[Zelig]

And I suppose that because he announced that he would increase funding for the CBC and the arts, you're going to complain that he's discriminating against hockey players or the gambling industry?

Hockey players and the gambling industry aren't protected by the human rights act.

 

[warpus]

How do you think seizure and ongoing control was undertaken and maintained if not ultimately by force of arms?

At some point the word "occupation" might have made sense, but not really anymore.

 

[Evie]

Zelig: that's the roundabout way of saying "I don't like that other people's problems are being fixed over those of people closer to me"

If you're going to claim poverty problems are the same across the board - you're full of it. Sorry, but that's just a plain, bald-faced lie. When the poverty rate for Native children is 2x to 3x the National average (17% vs 50-60%) ; when the unemployment rate is 2x or more the national average, any claim the two are the same problem is bollocks.

If you just make a plan to address poverty in general, say by making employment more likely, what happens? That ratio goes *up* because unemployed white people have better odds of finding jobs than unemployed first nations people. If you give money around, considering limited supply, likewise the ratio remain the same (or gets worse, again, because in general poor white people tend to be less poor than poor Native people) - and it's an unacceptable ratio on the face of it.

Also, re: protected categories, not applicable. Section 15B of the charter specifically void section 15 (the protected categories discrimination one) when it comes to ameliorating the conditions of groups that are otherwise disadvantaged. And so it should.

At some point the word "occupation" might have made sense, but not really anymore.

Wasn't that long ago that there were Army/Native or RCMP/Native confrontations resulting in bloodshed over land claims. And by "not that long ago" I mean "Within my lifetime."

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Zelig: that's the roundabout way of saying "I don't like that other people's problems are being fixed over those of people closer to me"

If you're going to claim poverty problems are the same across the board - you're full of it. Sorry, but that's just a plain, bald-faced lie. When the poverty rate for Native children is 2x to 3x the National average (17% vs 50-60%) ; when the unemployment rate is 2x or more the national average, any claim the two are the same problem is bollocks.

If you just make a plan to address poverty in general, say by making employment more likely, what happens? That ratio goes *up* because unemployed white people have better odds of finding jobs than unemployed first nations people. If you give money around, considering limited supply, likewise the ratio remain the same (or gets worse, again, because in general poor white people tend to be less poor than poor Native people) - and it's an unacceptable ratio on the face of it.

Also, re: protected categories, not applicable. Section 15B of the charter specifically void section 15 (the protected categories discrimination one) when it comes to ameliorating the conditions of groups that are otherwise disadvantaged. And so it should.

Maybe it would be more acceptable if Harper just completely disenfranchised senior citizens? After all, the objection from several pages back seems to stem from the fact that they vote.

Wasn't that long ago that there were Army/Native or RCMP/Native confrontations resulting in bloodshed over land claims. And by "not that long ago" I mean "Within my lifetime."

I clearly remember watching the coverage of the Oka situation on the news.

Oh, and now there's a woman weighing in on the niqab thing, comparing it to the residential schools: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/winds...s-says-zarqa-nawaz-1.3258541#vf-3286700001780

That's ridiculous. Nobody is advocating removing female children from Muslim households, imprisoning them in schools, and literally beating their language, culture, and religion out of them.

 

[Zelig]

Zelig: that's the roundabout way of saying "I don't like that other people's problems are being fixed over those of people closer to me"

Not really, I don't feel that other people's problem are being fixed over those of people closer to me. People I'm close to benefit disproportionately from government assistance. (Though not as much as we will when we're old.)

If you just make a plan to address poverty in general, say by making employment more likely, what happens? That ratio goes *up* because unemployed white people have better odds of finding jobs than unemployed first nations people. If you give money around, considering limited supply, likewise the ratio remain the same (or gets worse, again, because in general poor white people tend to be less poor than poor Native people) - and it's an unacceptable ratio on the face of it.

I'm not clear why anyone should care about these aggregate demographic ratios if individual freedoms and opportunities are equal.

edit: To expand, subset ratios not representative of the population as a whole are indicative of a past or present problem, so they're worth investigating - you can compare rate of equalization to representative ratios vs. random subsets to see if there's a current problem.

Also, re: protected categories, not applicable. Section 15B of the charter specifically void section 15 (the protected categories discrimination one) when it comes to ameliorating the conditions of groups that are otherwise disadvantaged. And so it should.

I'm not making a legal claim, it's just faster to reference the charter categories than to list them out every time, as they're close enough to categories that I think shouldn't be used for discrimination. I don't particularly care about affirmative action programs either way, but absent evidence that specific ones yield superior outcomes than the alternatives, I'm not actually going to support them.

Maybe it would be more acceptable if Harper just completely disenfranchised senior citizens? After all, the objection from several pages back seems to stem from the fact that they vote.

Best would be if enough young people voted to make the current lopsided subsidies to the elderly politically unfeasible.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Best would be if enough young people voted to make the current lopsided subsidies to the elderly politically unfeasible.

So what are you doing to encourage that?

I should dig up that old Rick Mercer Rant from way back... in 2008, or so. It's every bit as true now as it was then, about the youth vote.

And speaking of Rick Mercer, his new season starts in a few minutes.

 

[Evie]

And where, pray tell, do you get the nonsensical idea that opportunities would be equal?

It's heavily documented that, on average, First Nations people have far less opportunities than non-first nations ones, even poor non-first-nations ones. It's a given that a program that help both sides equally will result in the same unequal opportunities being maintained. It's likewise extensively documented that racism against First Nations people is omnipresent.

The idea that poor Natives and poor whites are in the same situation, and have the same opportunities, is a joke.

 

[Zelig]

So what are you doing to encourage that?

I'm pretty sure I already answered that last time you asked.

I don't need to do anything to encourage it. I'm free to simply provide commentary on the situation, which is no less relevant because my efforts (or lack thereof) to affect the situation.

It's heavily documented that, on average, First Nations people have far less opportunities than non-first nations ones, even poor non-first-nations ones.

So give everyone the same opportunities.

It's a given that a program that help both sides equally will result in the same unequal opportunities being maintained.

I don't think it is.

If a set is unequally weighted, applying the same formula to the entire set will automatically give greater effect to the over-represented subsets by an amount equal to the over-representation.

It's likewise extensively documented that racism against First Nations people is omnipresent.

So deal with that.

 

[Evie]

I don't think it is.

If a set is unequally weighted, applying the same formula to the entire set will automatically give greater effect to the over-represented subsets by an amount equal to the over-representation.

And is the same formula going to make employers less racist and more willing to employ natives? To magically improve the completely inadequate education opportunities available in the overwhelming bulk of native communities (that makes even the troubled school system in the rest of the country look perfect in comparison)?

A one-size-fits-all solution will benefit far more those who AREN'T held back by factors like these than those who are.

 

[Zelig]

And is the same formula going to make employers less racist and more willing to employ natives? To magically improve the completely inadequate education opportunities available in the overwhelming bulk of native communities (that makes even the troubled school system in the rest of the country look perfect in comparison)?

I don't know that formulas without variables for ethnic origin will perform any worse at either of these things.

For schools, if the school is bad, fix it. If aboriginal schools are actually that much worse, then you absolutely don't need something specific for native schools, you just fix the worst schools, and it will be those ones anyway.

 

[warpus]

Wasn't that long ago that there were Army/Native or RCMP/Native confrontations resulting in bloodshed over land claims. And by "not that long ago" I mean "Within my lifetime."

I remember that. In the end though, that has nothing do with an "occupation". People using that word is just an attempt to make an appeal to emotion, IMO.

 

[Arwon]

Some "appeals to emotion" are good and correct to make.

 

[Zelig]

Problem is that they disproportionately affect emotional people.

 

[Evie]

Do I detect a whiff of the tired old "being emotional is bad" line of thinking here?

 

[Birchbark22]

I am getting worried with the split vote, the Conservatives just might find themselves getting re-elected, even though most Canadians don't want them back in power. Wishing that we had some form of Proportional Representation instead of First Past the Post when it comes to electoral systems.

The prospect of Harper being re-elected is even worse than facing a long and bitterly cold winter. The darkness and gloom will be palpable if he returns to 24 Sussex.

 

[Arwon]

Do I detect a whiff of the tired old "being emotional is bad" line of thinking here?

That's silly, robots don't emit smells.

 

[warpus]

Some "appeals to emotion" are good and correct to make.

Do I detect a whiff of the tired old "being emotional is bad" line of thinking here?

An appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy.

Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy characterized by the manipulation of the recipient's emotions in order to win an argument, especially in the absence of factual evidence.

It's a poor and improper way to try to win a debate as it relies on emotions rather than facts.

 

[Arwon]

Thinking that pointing out a fallacy invalidates the argument is also a fallacy.

When I describe Australia's immigration detention centres as lawless offshore rape camps I'm being deliberately emotive to strengthen my argument with rhetoric. I'm also being completely correct. That's what they *are*.

Describing settler colonial societies as an ongoing occupation of colonised peoples gets at a core and deep truth of things that you probably need emotive language to really highlight. It's effective rhetoric. It's also a "fact" as far as it's how many people experience colonial societies - dominated by indifferent or hostile and often culturally alien institutions that cannot be resisted because they're backed up by state power.

 

[Arwon]

Also:

Trudeau is proposing to fix Canada's broken electoral system by making it Australia's.

Specifically he's pushing preferential voting which Canada's 4 or 5 party system desperately needs as a bare minimum. And making voting a compulsory duty rather than optional right which, meh, it works fine.

 

[warpus]

Describing settler colonial societies as an ongoing occupation of colonised peoples gets at a core and deep truth of things that you probably need emotive language to really highlight.

If your argument has legs to stand on, let it stand on those legs. No need to try to appeal to my vulnerable human side.