Canadian Military Record Praised -- by a Brit

[Goonie]

The quote you used pboily was accurate. My motives for posting this were purely to set the record straight after reading a few very uneducated posts in the Ask a Canadian thread.

As a person concentrating his studies in International Relations, I think I understand Canada's place in the world. I am well versed in the debate on Canada's position on the world power scale. I realize that we are not as powerful as the United States, but this does not bother me. Canada plays(played) a very specific role in International Relations; one that I am not ashamed of.

I feel in no way inferior to the United States, or Britain. Canada plays an admirable role that I am proud of. I would hope however that while feeling this way, I would still be able to come here and set the record straight.


EDIT: Oh, and I spend four months of every year in New England. I know Vermont's capital.

 

[pboily]

I don't spend any time of the year in New Hampshire, but I also know Vermont's capitol.

In the Ask a Canadian thread, I think you stated that something to the effect that the inferiority complex was exaggerated. Maybe you meant that we had no real reason to have the inferiority complex, but I took that to mean that there was no inferiority complex.

 

[Goonie]

Like many buzz words, I think it is overused. I do indeed think it is exagerated. Does it exists? Yes, to some degree. But I feel as though it is beginning to become a scapegoat and the default 'go-to' diagnosis of the Canadian mindset. You are also right that I believe Canadians have no reason to have one in the first place.


Damn fine memory as well! I said New England, yet you knew New Hampshire. I've got my reasons for knowing it, as I am sure you do. Perhaps the large French-Canadian population is your reason (aside from the general beauty of the state)?

 

[colontos]

By the general lack of response, I will assume that most Europeans and Americans already knew all of this.

Well, I did, anyway. (I'm American.)

I don't think that, in America anyway, Canadian WW1 and 2 achievements are remembered as British. In every history class I've taken and book I've read, the Canadians are given their due in the world wars. I remember my history teacher (who was American) waxing eloquent about Vimy Ridge, for one example.

Most of the time you see people (and again, I can only really speak for Americans) mocking Canada it's because Canada is percieved as having declined. Most Americans, when mocking Canada, will preface it by saying something like, "Canada used to be a real country, in the World Wars and Korea," but then say that Canada has since gone south, so to speak. Canada did not participate in Vietnam or Iraq II (did they in Iraq I?) so the "loyal ally" thing doesn't hold water, correctly or incorrectly, with most Americans.

This does ignore Afghanistan, yes. You have a point there.

Canada does do a lot of peacekeeping, mostly (always?) under UN auspices. But I think many Americans, myself included, view UN peacekeeping as useless and ineffective. Even if all Americans were informed in detail of Canada's peacekeeping efforts, the response would most likely be, "so what?"

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

@Colontos: American-led non-UN missions don't seem to be faring better. If anything, much worse.

Despite some failures, the peacekeeping idea is still very useful. If only people realized that there has to be lots of funding and troops to maintain it. If Canada wishes to be a strong peacekeeping nation, if anything, it will have to dramatically increase its military spending.

 

[colontos]

@Colontos: American-led non-UN missions don't seem to be faring better. If anything, much worse.

Never said they were. And anyway, apples and oranges.

I'm assuming you're referring to Iraq, which is not a peacekeeping mission. Think what you want about Iraq, but peacekeeping, by and large, does nothing. It could, yes. But it doesn't, because the people in charge don't do what needs to be done.

In Rwanda, the commander of the UN forces there (a Canadian, and a smart guy, if not a decisive guy) knew what was about to happen. The peacekeeping forces knew where the weapons were stashed, and could have gone and confiscated them. Kofi Annan, head of peacekeeping ops at the time (IIRC) would not give him the go ahead, because confiscated the weapons would have been an offensive act. And therein lies the flaw of current ideas of peacekeeping: to keep the general peace, sometimes you do have to bust a few heads.

 

[History_Buff]

And the Canadians were willing to do it. The fact that a ranking higher up wouldn't let us doesn't make us any less effective. The **** we've done as Peacekeepers has prevented wars. Just look at the Suez Crisis.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

Never said they were. And anyway, apples and oranges.

I'm assuming you're referring to Iraq, which is not a peacekeeping mission. Think what you want about Iraq, but peacekeeping, by and large, does nothing. It could, yes. But it doesn't, because the people in charge don't do what needs to be done.
.

America is trying to restore security. It may not be exactly the same thing, but it is arguably the same goal.

And yes, the UN forces have had some notable failures. But on the whole, I would say the world would have been a worse place without the peacekeeping forces over the last 50 odd years. And they come at a relatively marginal price. And as history_buff has said, the failure in 94 could hardly be called Canadian. So our hands are clean.

 

[colontos]

And the Canadians were willing to do it. The fact that a ranking higher up wouldn't let us doesn't make us any less effective. The **** we've done as Peacekeepers has prevented wars. Just look at the Suez Crisis.

The Suez Crisis was a war. War was not prevented. Peace making and peacekeeping are two different things.

And also, as I've said, Canadians are viewed as having been effective until, say, the sixties. Not saying it's accurate, but that's the perception.

 

[History_Buff]

The Suez Crisis was a war, but imagine how big it would have been had France and England attacking Egypt, after the USSR promised to intervene on behalf of Egypt?

 

[RedWolf]

but then say that Canada has since gone south, so to speak. Canada did not participate in Vietnam or Iraq II (did they in Iraq I?) so the "loyal ally" thing doesn't hold water, correctly or incorrectly, with most Americans.

Honestly even that statement is BS... A country that starts unprovoked wars of agression can't expect allies to jump on side. Throw your children's lives away if you want but why should Canadian's be expected to do the same?

Interestingly... if thats truly the sticking point for Americans... Maybe they should consider that the ones we "sat out" didn't go so well in the end. Maybe we were right?

 

[Taliesin]

I never knew the Canadians stormed Berlin!?

You have a point; they didn't. It's been a while since he told me, so I probably got it mixed up. Likely he was talking about the liberation of Holland.

 

[pboily]

Interestingly... if thats truly the sticking point for Americans... Maybe they should consider that the ones we "sat out" didn't go so well in the end. Maybe we were right?

Sure enough, now comes the time to remind people of two big wars our southern neighbors initially sat out of...

 

[Elta]

I had a Canadian history teacher in school ...he allways like to reiderate how many troops Canada sent with regaurds to it's population (a high %)

Other "British" countries helped also and don't get credit - for example the large amount of Indians who fought for England ....Mexico actually fought in WW2 also + the 250,000 Mexican-Americans who were.

Intresting fact: Per capita 1000% more Nativa Americans fought in world war 2 compared to any other ethnicity.

^ random stuff I remember from 7th grade history.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

@Elta. Australia's relative contribution was also incredible (just not as effective. )

I think the point is that the British have had serious problems with leaching credit off of most of its commonwealth members WRT war. Same goes with the French and their Algerian troops.

But then we can thank them for not letting us get conquered by the Americans in 1812. So kudos to them for that.

 

[Sidhe]

@Elta. Australia's relative contribution was also incredible (just not as effective. )

I think the point is that the British have had serious problems with leaching credit off of most of its commonwealth members WRT war. Same goes with the French and their Algerian troops.

But then we can thank them for not letting us get conquered by the Americans in 1812. So kudos to them for that.

I think you're slightly mistaken: any Englishman with any knowledge acknoweldges that Canadians have done right by us, and we by them, and we thank them for their efforts. There's certainly no argument when it comes to their worth. If they see that isn't the case then we have screwed up only in expressing our thanks. British reserve I guess?

 

[sysyphus]

Just stop referring to us as "America" and we'll be one happy family.

 

[skadistic]

I've alway thought highly of Canadas military and the sacrifices its made in history. They are a very capable force.............when the Canadian gov. lets them have bullets.

 

[De Lorimier]

Just call it rational prioritization. Universal healthcare and cheap higher education vs. bullets and missiles, the choice is simple.

 

[RedWolf]

Just call it rational prioritization. Universal healthcare and cheap higher education vs. bullets and missiles, the choice is simple.

Cheap higher education?! How do I get me some of that?... My girlfriend and I are drowning in school debt.