cannons or muskets ?

[Garvarg]

Ok, maybe someone can help me here.

I keep reading about people attacking cities and dragging along a lot of cannons or catapults. Are they really worth the trouble? Usuall when attacking I have knights or similar fast moving attack squads, and trying to get deep into an enemy territory just takes too long if I drag along a bunch of good defence forces, but I usually do, because it help to keep my attack force healthy.

So why take catapults or cannons? They just don't seem very effective. They miss a lot of the tme, ruin barracks and graineries instead of damaging their defenders. I would rather put my resources into building more of knights\cavalry than cataputlts\cannons.

Am I missing something?

 

[SesnOfWthr]

Personally, I have found cannons/artillery most effective later in the game when you are attacking advanced units in large cities. I generally don't use them as much earlier in the game, especially if my knights/cavalry are up against spearmen/ pikemen. Later on, when you are attacking against infantry and the like, they can be extremely useful for getting them down to one hit point with no chance of casualties for your forces. Although they do destroy buildings, they can also hurt population which will reduce the chance of a culture flip when you do capture the cities. I am only playing on warlord at the moment, but this seems to be a pretty common tactic from what I've read in these forums. Hope this helps.

 

[Svar]

It depends on which government you use for fighting a war. If you use Monarchy don't build cannon but if you use Republic or Demoracy then use cannon to redline enemy defenders before finishing them off with your fast units. Many more of your fast units will survive and that keeps war weariness down.

 

[thefrenchzulu]

I think the answer is both.

Cannons have the advantage that you don't need a barracks and I tend to build them in those average cities where you are not going to pay the maintenance cost of a barracks.

Also it gives you a free shot on defense.

You do need musketmen to provide some defense though, otherwise you will just lose your stack of cannons.

Cannons main advantage though comes once you upgrade to artillery. There is no stopping artillery stacks.

Attacking cities defended by some invantry with only cavalry can become a very costly exercise.

In my last Demi-God game, I attack my main rival with an inferior force. I had 50 tanks, 80 invantry against more than 200 TOW and 300 invantry. My 100 artillery shot them to pieces in the end.

(Must add that I was far behind in tech, but managed to get some MPP and could keep the AI away from rubber and iron, so I fought TOW on only roads)

 

[homeyg]

Cannons/Artillery can be good on offense for two things. When attacking cities they may bring down the population or bring down the defending units' health (or destroy buildings which you aren't usually worried about). What's good about the first one is that a unit in a city above size 6 gets a defensive bonus of 50%. If you are attacking a musketman in a size 7 city with a knight, the knight wouldnt be as effective as it would be if it the city were size 6 and below (the musketman is actually has a defense of 6 instead of 4, 50% of 4 is 2) What is good about lowering the defender's bar down to one is that you have a bigger chance of winning. The defender only has one chance to survive, while you have four chances to destroy him. So, when you attack cities in the late medieval/early industrial bring along some artillery/cannons. Don't bother with catapults or trebuchets. When you can build trebuchets or catapults the defender is usually only a spearman anyway.

 

[Bluemofia]

i NEVER use artillery or cannons for offence. i only use them for defence. to deal with an enemy like that, i just blow a D-Day and swarm them with tanks or cavalry, depending on the age.

 

[Legator]

in my opinion are all artillery units very useful. defensewise and offensewise.

they cause in both ways less losses and of course the artillery unit is unbeatable.

 

[Tennyson]

Cannons and artillery are great offensively, if you are not in 'lightning war' mode with your cavalry. They're cheap to build and the damage helps keep your cavalry from losing their lives against well-defended cities. Also, if you count the number of injured units, you can get an idea of just how many defenders you're dealing with.

 

[Smellincoffee]

I don't use catapults/trebuchets, but I do build cannons and artillery. I don't think the former two every do anything useful. If I want to pillage before then, I use regular ol' troops.

 

[magicianeer]

Haul those catapults! It is a hassle getting them all together and to the front. Pressing B 10 times each turn and waiting through the animation only to be rewarded with misses is boring. But its better than staring at a pile of 12 dead Knights before the enemy City Walls. If all your catapults do is knock 1 hp off of the two best defenders, then your attack units will fare MUCH better. Also, If the AI forces you to retreat, you will never have to retreat much beyond the position of your catapults; they will crush the AI advance.

In the mideval era, the defensive units are expensive and not very good vs the offensive units-- Musketmen cost more than Longbowmen and have only 50% chance of stopping Longbowmen on open terrain. Knights cost only a little more than Musketmen and defend just as well if you keep to hills. And Knights have the option of attacking instead of defending. Catapults cost about half of a Musketman.

I think you would do better to send only Knights or Cavalry deep into enemy land and try to end your turns on hills, jungle or something-- you will get further into enemy land before they kill you. Put the resources for those defensive units you drag along into catapults. Of course you will still need some defensive units to protect the catapults and garrison captured cities.

 

[Goober]

I am not a fan of artillery, but then again, I am a recent graduate of Warlord. I really have no time for C3C, but if I did, then I would try Regent. I just build LOTS of units, and attack. I do see the point for Artillery, having read some fantastic strategy articles on them. BamSpeedy's Above Sid game provides some excellent pointers, then again, there is always the War Academy.

 

[Dutchgael]

I use Artillery stacks offensively because:

1) There's this long WW1 era, before the invention of the tank, when defence is way too strong for your cavalries.
2) Genocide ... less people to revolt

I use Artillery defensively because:
In this era there's Railroad throughout my empire, so I can get to any invaders quickly and shell them thoroughly, then move in for the kill.

As for Catapults:
I have never used them offensively, but I used them defensively in some Always War games I played (Always War game my version: declare war on anyone you meet, no trades - not even first turn). In these AW games your border cities get to endure so much that Catapults for defense are very useful indeed.

I once needed loads of them when I had no Iron and Horses, and could build only Spearmen, Archers and Catapults.

 

[kb2tvl]

I use siege weapons when I play monarchy and war monger a lot. If I am going republic, I will build up a sufficient force of knights and hit the ai fast.

So, one approach is to build up 4 ~ 6 catapults and 4~6 spear with 4~6 archers and bring this sod onto the offensive. I keep one city building catapults, 2 cities building spear and 1 city building archers or sword. I will, of course, be in despostism or monarchy. I have yet to play in feudalism. I prefer larger cities and I dislike ICS city placement.

Now with republic, I will tend to build knights and a few pike to support the knights. Depending on whether I am war mongering in Monarchy or trying to grab a luxary while pursing a builder strat in Republic will determine my approach.

 

[jidosh]

Don't underestimate trebuchets. They are more likely to hit something than cannons, at least against mid-age defenses. Ihave led some very successful mid-age assaults with knights, pikes and trebuchets. Saltpeter is sometimes hard to get in C3C.

 

[Garvarg]

Thanks for the ideas guys.
I tend to like to build up a huge army with knights and calvary and take out an enemy as fast as possible. It's hard for trhem to culture flip if they don't exist. Your right though, there is a long gap in between conscript and tanks, so I will change my tactics and build 20 of so cannons and go back on the offensive.

Thanks again for the input.