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Can't see crime buildings

Discussion in 'Bugs and Crashes' started by Misantropia, Jan 1, 2019.

  1. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Disease is even more limited because the number of diseases are Limited as well.

    Crime and Disease are constantly growing if left unchecked as you well know. But we only Expose Crime and Disease when a Special Building becomes exposed to the player. The uneducated C2C player will let Crime and Disease go unchecked " you can ignore it" until the Exposure is revealed and then the panic sets in. How many times have we had new players unaccustomed to these 2 properties sudden complain that their empire id being destroyed by them. Many many many have we had over the years. The experienced C2C player n=know to keep some kind of handle on these 2. And Now Education from it's enhancements over the past 2 years is even more vital to keep in control. Why because you have set the beginning Malus very close to the equilibrium. And a -100 in Education is much worse than a +200 in Crime or Disease will ever be. That is how you designed it. The way Disease and crime are is because that is the way DH and Hydro respectively Designed their Property systems.

    This begs the question: So why do they have to conform to your Education design? They both were made long before yours were they not?
     
  2. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    It wasn't the way it was originally setup. There had been a crime and a disease at 1 for both until the last year or so.

    Nothing has to conform to the design of another thing. I'm only talking about what rationally makes sense from a design standpoint. Having +1 crime means what crimes are taking place? If the answer is nothing then the concept of it being +1 crime (there IS crime) is broken. I suppose it's just an opinion.
     
  3. Snofru1

    Snofru1 Chieftain

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    I would add a really small crime and desease at +1 that is not a game breaker, reducing gold and health by one respectively..
     
  4. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Yes almost 3 years ago now when I moved the Crime pickpocket (iirc) from Personal Adornment Tech when it came into the game at 10 not 1. The Common Cold came in at 1 on Disease. Atm I don't remember the Tech it came in on. But back then there was a problem with it coming in at +1. The :yuck: from the early game was substantial and was hindering early AI growth. The +1 that Com Cold gave then added to the problem.

    Nothing is broken about either property by not having something at +1. Just a visual disconnect and nothing else. And what makes it rational from a design stand point? That is opinion only. These can be changed again to give a visual reference for Crime and Disease for those that need the crutch.

    Since you added the Tech Theft so early in the tech tree it would be a logical place for an individual crime to show up, like pick pocket or something similar like Petty Theft. Trouble is many early societies there was no theft because all property was common usage for all in the band or tribe.

    But to say that the common cold was rampant at the dawn of mankind is rather far fetched.

    All this really is, is a nit pick over When these earliest properties should show up Visually. No more no less.
     
  5. tmv

    tmv Chieftain

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    It was once a crime in the USA (theoretically even in the Northern States) to help slaves to escape their master. As were mixed marriages, avoiding forced sterilizations, certain "deviant" behavior, etc. Many countries had such laws, but in case of the USA it is still the same country. How would you handle these "crimes"? It would certainly open a can of worms to have such crimes in game, OTOH crime fighters would act against such behavior for certain. Of course, certain crimes could be civic/worldview dependent (like Illegal Immegration, I think). But the point is, today many of these things are not defined as crimes anymore, and for most people that is an improvement.

    I mean the equilibrium of decay. Positive values go down (if there is no source), negative values go up.

    Doesn't that depend on your economy being largely undisturbed (by, say, crime effects)?
     
  6. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Just for clarification, the crime that was established at +1 was Solicitation, which is a strange thing to call a crime because directly asking people to buy something has only recently been considered a nuissance and has always been a common practice - though I think oddly it was supposed to be 'sexual' solicitation but wasn't specified that way.

    That excess unhealth is one of the things I most miss about the older C2C. I know we've had a lot of disagreements on this and I also know you would remember me asking us to let it remain. You can't starve out a pop1 city so it's nice to have to dig yourself out of an unhealth hole in the first part of the prehistoric, which makes a lot of sense to me that we would've started off in extremely squalid conditions emerging from the wild.

    That said, I'm not saying it has to be anything that creates an impact like that. A first crime could be 'Lies' unlocked at Deception, early enough to basically be from the beginning, and it could give -1% research or something equally insignificant.

    I disagree. In code, and of course this is basically coming from fundamental logic, if you feed a boolean value (which is only true or false) any number in the positive, then the boolean is 'true' and if you feed it anything less, then the boolean is 'false'. It only makes sense that +1 and up crime or disease means 'you are suffering from one'. It cannot get more simple than that and who wants to have to go in and evaluate every crime and disease building for whether it might be in effect now or not just to figure out what your low end point is where you can ignore the property up to that point right now? But the way it currently is, if I wanted to do that, I could strategically consider 50 or 75 to be 0 and not worry about any positive crime up to that point existing. That just feels very wrong to me.

    Even when private ownership is not firmly established, group ownership and claims certainly still exist. Even animals are territorial with what they claim. Taking the fruits of another's labor is the easy way to not have to labor yourself and the behavior leads to the necessity to establish rules on private ownership eventually, in the meantime the people who work the hardest are the ones suffering from the behavior, whether it is deemed a 'bad' behavior or not. So it does still make sense to make it a crime. The earliest 'crime' point in the game would probably be at Deception though, which is also where people recognize the potential need for someone to watch out for the group for suspicious folks trying to take advantage of them as well and where the first anti-crime units are born. If we ignore this without adding a crime building effect, we're invalidating the whole concept of recognizing that we've begun the path to both enforcement and criminal behavior.

    I don't think so at all. Animals get colds too. The actual common cold virus may have been even worse at the time than it is now but being exposed to nature in all its glory is bound to present various minor illnesses at a very common rate. Ever try to go camping during the rainy season? Sure we were more resistant back then but we were a lot more exposed to the elements. Until we started utilizing herbs to contain that situation, we likely knew sickness for the majority of our short lives.

    I don't feel it's a minor issue - perhaps minor in a bigger picture view but it is a bit disturbing on a few levels.

    Those who dictate what crimes are often do so to protect their own interests. One of the downsides of trying to create a legal code is that although there is a natural cause to do so - to identify behavioral rules to go by for the betterment of the society and to create a system to enforce those rules, it then becomes a tool that is quickly and easily misused as well, which then also leads to anti-corruption laws and so on. There are numerous laws in any system designed to protect various private interests and those interests often conflict with the demands and needs of other private interests. These kinds of things are not what the property crime system is addressing. What it is addressing are the clear matters that are negative for the nation as a whole and if allowed to exist will bring a host of problems with them. When you allow crime levels (which could be considered a societal 'selfishness' index) to rise, you start allowing these behaviors to go unchecked and by allowing them to go unchecked, you get the negative effects from them manifesting as autobuildings. Whether defined as a crime or not in the nation's legal code, those activities would still be there causing trouble for the community. We assume that the legal code would be good enough to understand that and include these behaviors as things to curb with enforcement efforts.

    But what does equilibrium mean from a realworld reflection? Anything at all? Are we suggesting that the natural state of crime is for nations to not have crime problems?

    EDIT: Equilibrium would only exist at 0 crime/disease IF there are no factors naturally adding to crime or disease amounts. Thus, if there's no population.

    Equilibrium would therefore be mathematically established at the point where the decay amount, which is striving to push the property volume towards 0 (the equilibrium as you intend to mean it, which has no real bearing on the real world so much as it is just a game factor value that helps to keep the system from going overboard) is equally as strong as the amount it's getting added to it by the natural and unavoidable factors that influence it.

    In this case that factor that is unavoidable that naturally adds to crime and disease is currently population and based on difficulty level, though I think something weird was done with disease so maybe isn't completely based on that anymore but when this all made sense it was.

    I also agree with a pending plan to make excess unhealth add to disease factor at 1:1 ratio and excess unhappiness do the same for crime.

    Thus, equilibrium is not commonly very easy to define. I figured out a formula once to do that when I was in play but I can't remember quite what that was, something like for every unchecked +1 crime source, the equilibrium point goes up by 10 or something.

    Usually I find it has more to do with how much production output I can muster. The higher your production, the faster you can react to make changes to problem spots in your nation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  7. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Solicitation, yes that's the one. Hydro should have called/named it Harlotry that was his meaning for it.

    I knew I shouldn't have answered and asked questions or made statements of opinion. I was just wasting time again. :crazyeye::lol:

    If you want it at +1 for both properties so be it. :)
     
  8. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I don't see why you feel it was a waste of time. I'm not overriding you on this. I'm just begging you to consider what I'm saying and see why I feel a logical sense of order is being breached here. Maybe I'm just OCD and the lack of adherence to such a basic design concept scratches my brain in a place I don't like and maybe I feel like other players would feel the same and maybe I'm wondering how it doesn't bug the hell out of everybody. I know I can be a bit strange at times.


    Harlotry probably wasn't even a good place to start a crime, though I can see why he would've since they say it was the 'first profession'. This is a crime I have to agree falls under tmv's statement that many crimes are debateworthy as to whether they are truly innately harmful to society or if it is just some interests that are harmed while others are supported and possibly even more beneficial on the whole to allow. I prefer keeping C2C crimes in the realm of the 'obviously this behavior hurts everyone and the community'.
     
  9. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    This.

    I just can't compete with these walls of text anymore. And trying to do so just wastes my time. The amount of mistyped words and half typed sentences and then proof reading what I typed to make sure it's even slight readable and Hopefully understandable just takes too long. Much less present my side of the discussion in an articulate manner is ………...frustrating to say the least. And I do like discussions and argumentative debate. BUt it becomes harder and harder to do so with 2 finger typing with fat fingers that hit multiple keys at a time.

    The mind is still willing but the body balks. :(
     
  10. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Have you considered my points? I mean really considered what I'm saying?

    I can understand ... somewhat ... I can't pretend to know what it's like to not type very well. You do pretty good for that. But do you ever consider trying to reconsider your opposition to the points I'm making? So far I'm just hearing that you just think it's annoying that I think the way I do about it. Sure... ultimately being annoyed is my basis for my point as well, annoyed that I can't simplify my understanding of this system down to 'if I have crime then I have crime effects'. But at least I'm trying to explain WHY it's annoying because an opinion without a reason is a completely invalid opinion imo. Since I often don't hear reasons for your opinions, I give ALL of mine in an effort to inspire them out of you. I don't mean it to overwhelm your senses but rather to appeal to what I assume is a logical deduction center that's looking to take in all data to come up with a refined opinion. Unfortunately I think I'm up against a mind that has itself made up and isn't actually listening to other reasons and is only looking to be right. I do try to listen to the reasons I'm given for opposing viewpoints and if I find them compelling in the face of the existing rationale I have then I am willing to change my opinion. So far, I'm not seeing how it's not a nuissance to have a more complex definition of when crimes begin - that's all I really need to understand to be more OK with how things are.

    If you want to win an argument with me, validate your opinions rather than trying to invalidate mine. I say this in hopes you can think of a way to put my mind at ease. tmv's observation about equilibrium at 0 being an alternative meaning does help a little but then introduces more issues for me because it should be nearly impossible to 'overcome' the problem of crimes so if we were to consider 0 to be the state of normalcy, then it would be incredibly unrealistic imo.

    I do understand that you're looking at +1 as being too soon for the early game to not be hit with pretty much anything that makes progress difficult. But if we don't give something that can be a problem very early on, we don't make buildings like the lookout post and units like the Wise Woman, meaningful selections to build/train but rather traps for the foolish to waste their time on.

    Ah well, I'm not demanding changes, just disapointed in the current state of things where this is concerned.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  11. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Sure I have. Why would you think I have not? Where is your mind at when I reply? You always seem to go down some path I'm not on. <shrug> :dunno:

    I will do as you want. Just because I think it's just a visual crutch is after all only my opinion. I have not changed my opinion or my mind set though no matter the argument for change. But in the long run it just does not matter. In fact I can lower the entry levels on many Individual Crimes. Make them have more of an impact earlier.

    More importantly I can also put some that I moved to later Eras back to earlier Eras even though they make no real sense for being there. But that is where Hydro originally had them. Like Graffiti and/or littering they used to be on a Preh era tech iirc. Like littering was a problem in the Preh/Ancient era(s). Really? Where is the evidence that past ancient civs died out from littering or from their kids defacing public buildings? Then several would show up in the Preh era at low levels and players would become uncomfortable with Crime again. Objective accomplished.

    Also now that the AI is coping better in the Ren thru Modern Eras with crime and not imploding, I can lower all the levels and the range that All Crime uses. Until the AI starts to crumble again. Then back it off a little bit. More disasters coming into play quicker from runaway crime. But you may have to reduce some of your Criminals str levels as they would become Kings of the Hill quite quickly. Nah that won't happen either. Just pullin your chain War Dog. :mwaha:
     
  12. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I see no cause to overreact with this kind of response. I'm not arguing that all changes you made are negative, ONLY that I would prefer to rapidly see some impact from crime/disease take place at +1 and higher. Even if the pain it brings is nearly insignificant at that point, at least its something to say you 'have crime' or 'have disease', thus fulfilling the boolean condition of being in the positive on crime/disease.

    That you changed these to a more rational position on the tech tree makes sense because it doesn't really mean anything until later. Littering seems to be something that would only matter after the garbage civic 'throw trash anywhere' is no longer in effect so seems to be more based n the removal of that civic and the representation of people not adhering to the new rules that represent an improvement in society by the civic value changes. Graffiti is more of a modern issue that should require paint products to be available. Tech is not all we should consider. But I agree they shouldn't be something that has an impact until long after the prehistoric.

    My whole observation could be solved by a new crime and a new disease that reflects this truly minor disturbance at these stages.

    The strength levels on criminals are equal to the strength levels of the law enforcement units - usually. ONLY assassins and cutthroats end up higher and ONLY if you are playing on SM. Otherwise the strength levels are identical to the LE units of the era and LE units are given more innate bonuses in combat against criminals. When we were arguing over that, I misunderstood that you were talking about actual strength rather than crime or law spreading capacity and stated that criminals are at twice the strength of law enforcement. That statement only applies to the crime spreading vs the crime control itself. Actual combat values put the LE units slightly better by nature than the criminals units.

    I'm not sure it's a good idea to lower the levels that the crimes use - it's still quite easy to get crime levels that go way high and the late the game, the easier that becomes. Rather than recalibrating the whole system, just add that super minor step is all I'm asking for. This helps players to understand the system better when they see a crime or disease building as soon as they have some.
     
  13. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    What? Are you just trying to provoke me into an argument? Just being Sarcastic? Or poking fun? What? :dunno:

    Now back to the subject matter.
    The Boolean argument is false. What you really only have is a Range.

    We argue about equilibrium and 0 being that mark. But this is false. There is No equilibrium point with Crime or Disease. You either have it or you don't. There is No Reward for having a Negative value in either property. What do you get for having -1 Crime or Disease, -1000 C or D, -10000? Nothing. So, so what if Crime does not appear until +50 Crime level or Disease at +25 or whatever it is? It just does not matter. Because 0 level is Not an equilibrium point in this discussion of these 2 property systems. This is why your perceived problem is not a real problem This is were these 2 properties differ greatly from the Education property when comparing them.

    Look I already said I will make something show up at +1 in the Preh Era. Extend the range from +1 to +2000 or +3000 (whatever the upper limits are now that Raxxo "adjusted" recently). Thus mollifing the need for this.
    Okay? Clear now?

    I think you really just wanted some mental joisting all along! :lol:
     
  14. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

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    I upscaled air/water pollution from 2000 to 3000 as max limit.
    Pseudobuilding entries of air/water pollution also were increased by 50%
    That is first air and water pollution pseudobuildings start at +600 instead of +400.

    Also worst of those properties isn't easily reachable for AI now even in Industrial/Modern era - and now they build all resource producers and buildings, that are part of building chain.
    That could help awake dormant bugs, that were fixed now.

    That is bridge had structural weakness, but it wasn't dangerous until I let heavy trucks driving trough it :p
    Now industrial era army is driving trough bridge to raid some Medieval/Renaissance civs just like European colonizers :p
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  15. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    I will be moving False Accusations to the Preh Era tech Deceptions. Will make it reduce iYield for :hammers:.

    Common Cold will be moved to Herbalism.

    Both will have entry levels of +1.
     
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  16. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Very appropriate I think. Thank you.
     
  17. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Actually Common Cold has No Preq Tech. So it's been available all along. It just would not show in the Special tab (left panel) or it's effects until disease hit level 25. Now it shows up immediately because the disease/pop1st turn immediately sets disease to +3. Now you have to decide if Alpha Female should be built before Alpha Male. Or vice versa. Decisions , decisions, decisions, it's a tough, tough, world our poor band of homo sapiens live in. :mischief::lol:
     
  18. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    See that's what I'm talkin about right there! Awesome.

    I'm curious... on the setting you're on that's producing +3 unhealth at pop 1, does the Alpha Female have any opportunity to counter that and maybe even recover from the disease or does it just keep it from getting worse?

    Perhaps we need to increase the -disease from the Alpha Female a bit to make it the key to avoiding a problem, or more quickly recovering from it, just as on settings less than the hardest ones, the Community Discussions is ultimately the key to keeping from falling into that immediate education hole that can quickly come up.

    Another thing we could do is complexify the disease and crime rate a bit for the beginning. We could make the amount per pop be an amount per (population -1) so that at 1 population you don't get any additional crime or disease, but then establish a more basic amount for all game difficulties as a base, like +1 crime/disease, that could then be more easily managed by the alpha female as it is but if you let the disease go, you get into unhealth and...

    This is still dependent on the game difficulty if I'm not mistaken right? Is disease currently set up at the same rate/pop in the handicaps file as crime/pop is?

    I'd love to do what DH suggested and add in +1/unaccounted for unhealth. We'd have to figure out where the best place to add that would be and how to get the syntax on it correct. Might be tricky might be easy. I think the same for crime with unhappiness is in order. Would all that mean that crimes and diseases make it easier to get more crimes and diseases as they come up? Yes... not such a bad thing imo. Another reason one benefits from staying on top of it - cheaper to maintain than to just address symptoms. Fairly real world reality there.

    In the case of the unhealth factor at the beginning of the game, this could make the Alpha Female really get a good reason to be what you'd immediately want to build to counter the disease coming at you.

    EDIT:
    One more consideration here... does the common cold have a +1 unhappiness factor? If so that could be problematic for some difficulty levels. +1 unhealth would be a lot more manageable. That said, in practice, I've changed my mind that it's not good to have some unhappiness from many diseases - we have a bit more challenging game right now where unhappiness is concerned than we've had in years so I don't want to eliminate that. Just saying that at the beginning of the game if you cut any nations down to 1 pop working with a single unchecked unhappiness (which a default civic could also be used to counter rather than removing it) then you dramatically impact that civ's progress vs others.

    I know this brings up the impact of some traits at the game opening - another reason I'm against the game starting with traits. Anyhow, it's just food for consideration.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  19. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    Can we assume that deception within the tribe is recognized as 'a crime' at Deception tech? Even with no personal possessions, there are various ways you could advantage yourself - or disadvantage another - by deception. Tricking them out of some or all of their share of the hunt (even if this share is arrived at by might-makes-right all-you-can-grab means). Tricking them into more than their share of the danger or workload on the hunt.

    The problem with False Accusations here is: what are you accusing them of? The only thing you can accuse them of is: False Accusations. Of False Accusations. And so ad nauseam... (This is actually a logical impossibility since this 'chain' can have had no start).

    Also, False Accusations is I think the only early crime that gives instability. For this reason it makes sense for it to only occur once a reasonably hefty level of crime has built up.
     
  20. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    What do you propose for the maluses on 'Deception'? (I do think it's a good idea and you make some valid observations. The really super cool thing about crime autobuildings is you don't have any graphic work to do so copying an old one and making a new one from that copy is as simple as XML gets.)

    Earlier I proposed it should have a small -% research, which I think would be no penalty at all if you've switched to the civic at language but could counter that bonus - and you can't get to deception without going through Language. So it cannot destabilize starts but would still be something you'd want to ensure you aren't suffering from.
     

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