Can't see crime buildings

[JosEPh_II]

The problem with False Accusations here is: what are you accusing them of? The only thing you can accuse them of is: False Accusations. Of False Accusations. And so ad nauseam... (This is actually a logical impossibility since this 'chain' can have had no start).

False accusations is lying. Lying, not telling the truth is age old. Satan beguiled the woman by giving a false accusation against what God had said. He beguiled her. Lied to her.

Before we go off the deep end on this why don't you All just start a new game on your favorite settings and see how long it takes you to overcome both the Common Cold and False accusations. I ran a new game of Normal to see how long it would take. Obviously If the GS are all = in their performance it will take 10 times as long on Eternity as it did on Normal.

Also once you start a new game up you can see from the tech tree or your Special tab on the left city panel what they do.

Speculating with out actual experience is just that speculation. Go play a little bit first, okay?

 

[Yudishtira]

What do you propose for the maluses on 'Deception'?

I would like to make it as insignificant as possible, so I'll agree with your penalty, although a %age is going to get hefty over time, is it not, so I suggest some flat figure.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I would like to make it as insignificant as possible, so I'll agree with your penalty, although a %age is going to get hefty over time, is it not, so I suggest some flat figure.

It also is not as strong right in the beginning but scales to what's happening in the game. And I'm sure that as you go forward from the first stages of the game and it does get heftier, it just motivates the player all the more to want to get fully on top of crime with that sort of thing going on.

Speculating with out actual experience is just that speculation.

I'll take your point for what you mean to say and don't take this as an argument but a parallel observation - To be able to have a hope of being able to design with any kind of effective balance, you HAVE to be able to make predictions. So I would call it predictive rather than speculative.

 

[Thunderbrd]

False accusations is lying. Lying, not telling the truth is age old. Satan beguiled the woman by giving a false accusation against what God had said. He beguiled her. Lied to her.

I agree somewhat. Except that it's a specific KIND of lie. I think it belongs where you put it in time but maybe doesn't need to be the simplest crime (the ONE at +1). It's a sub-category of lying more than it is 'lying itself'. I don't read false accusation as meaning any false claim but rather a political maneuver meant to undermine another person specifically. If we simply renamed it to False Claims, it would be more accurate to the generic sense of crime that would arise at Deception. It's splitting hairs, I understand, but it's worth the discussion enough I think. I'm not saying there's not a place for the more direct connotation of False Accusation and I think Deception is a very good place for it too. I'm just thinking about the more subtle implications of the terminology. Is it really as generic a term as you're meaning it here?

As for the effect, it sounds like something that can work enough at that stage, but a strange downside to lies being told. Not sure the 'punishment' fits the crime if it's naming is intended to be that generically interpreted.

Just thinking aloud here.

 

[JosEPh_II]

<!-- Crime (False Accusations) -->
   <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_CRIME_FALSEACCUSATIONS</BuildingClass>
   <Type>BUILDING_CRIME_FALSEACCUSATIONS</Type>
   <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_CRIME_FALSEACCUSATIONS</Description>
   <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_CRIME_FALSEACCUSATIONS_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
   <Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_CRIME_FALSEACCUSATIONS_STRATEGY</Strategy>
   <Advisor>ADVISOR_ECONOMY</Advisor>
   <!-- Graphical and interface -->
   <ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_CRIME_FALSEACCUSATIONS</ArtDefineTag>
   <iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
   <fVisibilityPriority>1</fVisibilityPriority>
   <!-- Prerequisites -->
            <MapCategoryTypes>
    <MapCategoryType>MAPCATEGORY_EARTH</MapCategoryType>
   </MapCategoryTypes>
   <PrereqTech>TECH_DECEPTION</PrereqTech>
   <!-- Construction cost -->
   <iCost>-1</iCost>
   <!-- Main effects -->
   <iHealth>-1</iHealth>
   <iHappiness>-1</iHappiness>
   <iInsidiousness>4</iInsidiousness>
   <YieldChanges>
    <iYield>0</iYield>
    <iYield>-1</iYield>
    <iYield>-1</iYield>
   </YieldChanges>
   <!-- Special properties -->
   <bNukeImmune>1</bNukeImmune>
   <iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>
   <!-- Revolution mod -->
   <iRevIdxLocal>5</iRevIdxLocal>
  </BuildingInfo>

Insidiousness is the only thing I was unsure about. So I left it alone. This is T-brd's domain.

I added in the YieldChanges as it did not have them before. Same for the iHealth. False accusations was a weak Crime to begin with.

The Tech Deception is egually weak as it probably should be given it's placement in the tech tree order.

<TechInfo>
   <Type>TECH_DECEPTION</Type>
   <Description>TXT_KEY_TECH_DECEPTION</Description>
   <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_TECH_DECEPTION_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
   <Strategy>TXT_KEY_TECH_DECEPTION_STRATEGY</Strategy>
   <Advisor>ADVISOR_MILITARY</Advisor>
   <iCost>6</iCost>
   <Era>ERA_PREHISTORIC</Era>
   <iAsset>2</iAsset>
   <iPower>1</iPower>
   <bTrade>1</bTrade>
   <bGoodyTech>1</bGoodyTech>
   <iGridX>2</iGridX>
   <iGridY>17</iGridY>
   <Flavors>
    <Flavor>
     <FlavorType>FLAVOR_MILITARY</FlavorType>
     <iFlavor>5</iFlavor>
    </Flavor>
    <Flavor>
     <FlavorType>FLAVOR_SCIENCE</FlavorType>
     <iFlavor>4</iFlavor>
    </Flavor>
    <Flavor>
     <FlavorType>FLAVOR_CULTURE</FlavorType>
     <iFlavor>1</iFlavor>
    </Flavor>
   </Flavors>
   <OrPreReqs>
    <PrereqTech>TECH_LANGUAGE</PrereqTech>
   </OrPreReqs>
   <Quote>TXT_KEY_TECH_DECEPTION_QUOTE</Quote>
   <Sound>AS2D_TECH_DECEPTION</Sound>
   <SoundMP>AS2D_TECH_DECEPTION</SoundMP>
   <Button>art/buttons/techs/DeceptionTech.dds</Button>
  </TechInfo>

If you 2 are Not talking about either of these then I have no idea What you Are talking about.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Is it really as generic a term as you're meaning it here?

Sure it is. Simple example a Chief has 2 daughters and the Chief wants one of them to marry the best warrior. But the other one wants the warrior too. So she falsely accuses her sister of sleeping with another man. So she lies to put shame on her sibling to get the prize she desires.

An false accuser is a liar. They use a lie to get what they want. Being a false accuser is generic and not painted into just a political connotation. Because it was moved to Oratory originally does not take away it's over all base, ie falsehoods.

A Prosecutor is an accuser before the law. But he tries to bring forth the truth not false information. Key word here is False the opposite of True/Truth you know.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Insidiousness is the only thing I was unsure about. So I left it alone. This is T-brd's domain.

This was scaled based on the entry level of the building so I'd probably say put it back to 1.

Overall though, holy hell that's a lot to be hit by so early in the game. Where I would look for the first crime to be any one of those maluses, all of them at once is truly severe. Shouldn't the severity of the crime be based on the entry point of the property level and thus should this not be made to be the softest crime we can make a crime be? I can see the logic behind each malus but could it hurt too much? Remember, the point here was not to make crime at this lower threshold too painful, just to make it visibly exist. The argument that it is rapidly unavoidable becomes truly valid if the crime is too painful. I'm willing to see how it plays out - just voicing thoughts here.

The health malus seems odd. How do lies increase the local mortality rate? I can think of some arguments but are they too reaching? I'm not sure.

Sure it is. Simple example a Chief has 2 daughters and the Chief wants one of them to marry the best warrior. But the other one wants the warrior too. So she falsely accuses her sister of sleeping with another man. So she lies to put shame on her sibling to get the prize she desires.

An false accuser is a liar. They use a lie to get what they want. Being a false accuser is generic and not painted into just a political connotation. Because it was moved to Oratory originally does not take away it's over all base, ie falsehoods.

A Prosecutor is an accuser before the law. But he tries to bring forth the truth not false information. Key word here is False the opposite of True/Truth you know.

I'm almost 100% sold here because damn that was a good answer. But I must ask:

If I was to be asked if I did my chores for the day and I say I did them, when in fact I didn't, how is that a false accusation?

It's a lie, yes, but it's not making an accusation of anyone, unless you twist the term to mean you can 'falsely accuse' yourself of innocence. This is why I say False Accusations are a subset of deception, not the most generic expression of it. You're absolutely right, it IS a lie, but only one TYPE of socially harmful lie. Believe me though, of the crimes that are already defined it's the most appropriate to place there by far.

You've convinced me to the extent I can be completely comfortable with it not changing though.

 

[Yudishtira]

The example assumes the concept of marriage (and monogamous marriage at that) already exists, whereas marriage exists in game, and is introduced much much later. It also assumes a taboo against promiscuity, which some societies only adopted in the last three centuries, and then only because it was forced upon them by outsiders.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The example assumes the concept of marriage (and monogamous marriage at that) already exists, whereas marriage exists in game, and is introduced much much later. It also assumes a taboo against promiscuity, which some societies only adopted in the last three centuries, and then only because it was forced upon them by outsiders.

Nit pick much!?! It was just a single example of false accusation. C'mon Man.

 

[Yudishtira]

Nit pick much!?! It was just a single example of false accusation. C'mon Man.

Sheesh your example illustrates MY point, that without a pre-existing law, no accusation, false or otherwise, is possible. And thus that False Accusation cannot be the first crime - it's not an opinion, it's a logical impossibility.

 

[raxo2222]

Sheesh your example illustrates MY point, that without a pre-existing law, no accusation, false or otherwise, is possible. And thus that False Accusation cannot be the first crime - it's not an opinion, it's a logical impossibility.

Murder and rape doesn't have unlock techs - False Accusation isn't first crime.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sheesh your example illustrates MY point, that without a pre-existing law, no accusation, false or otherwise, is possible. And thus that False Accusation cannot be the first crime - it's not an opinion, it's a logical impossibility.

I'm not sure I follow you here. Trying but failing. Again, crimes are not crimes because they are defined as criminal behaviors, but because those behaviors are innately damaging to the community and they exist. I'm not even sure I'm saying anything that applies to what you just tried to express but it seems to me you're trying to say that without a legal code, a pattern of lying throughout a community wouldn't be harmful?

 

[Toffer90]

Sheesh your example illustrates MY point, that without a pre-existing law, no accusation, false or otherwise, is possible. And thus that False Accusation cannot be the first crime - it's not an opinion, it's a logical impossibility.

The only real tech req for false accusation would be "language"... So it is pretty close to being a first crime as language is a first column tech.
I guess murder, theft and trickery would be the most primal "crimes" one can think of, if defining crime as anything detrimental to society.
Since we have a tech called theft I guess it would be strange to have theft before it... Trickery would probably be associated with the tech deception.

Murder does seem a bit heavy to only require +1 crime property... If it were to be the first one, then it would have to only give e.g. a reduction in food in the beginning and perhaps get more disadvantageous with later techs.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Sheesh your example illustrates MY point, that without a pre-existing law, no accusation, false or otherwise, is possible. And thus that False Accusation cannot be the first crime - it's not an opinion, it's a logical impossibility.

See Raxxo's post. Perhaps look at the Individual Crimes in the xml a bit more? And if that's logic...… . Plus it's a game that start's at 200,000BC. How logical is that? So why so hung up about it?

T-Brd wanted a Crime to show up at +1 Crime level. Of the existing Individual Crimes and the Techs we have in the Preh Era these 2 paired together the best. You don't like it, noted, but you've not persuaded me to change it.

 

[Yudishtira]

Murder and rape doesn't have unlock techs - False Accusation isn't first crime.

So there's two bugs for someone to fix.

 

[Thunderbrd]

So there's two bugs for someone to fix.

Not bugs. They are considered to pre-exist the tech tree but not too commonly (thus it takes almost more crime than you can even earn in the prehistoric - depending on the game speed - to get them.)

 

[Yudishtira]

That just makes them intentional bugs.

Leaving that aside, now you've got two crimes that have never been committed, that people have suddenly started accusing each other of (and of course in one case they have to wait for someone to die). The only disruption I can see this causing is if the tribe are laughing too hard.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That just makes them intentional bugs.

Leaving that aside, now you've got two crimes that have never been committed, that people have suddenly started accusing each other of (and of course in one case they have to wait for someone to die). The only disruption I can see this causing is if the tribe are laughing too hard.

Surely they were committed a number of times before the game begins and people are well aware of the potential of. What they weren't previously capable of was deceiving one another to pretend it never happened. Nor were they previously advanced enough to consider saying someone else did it.

Plus, the non-existence of a crime building in a city/community, cannot be construed to mean it never happens, just that it isn't happening enough to cause rather major disruptions.

There's also no such thing as an intentional bug. If design is intentional and is in the game as it is intended, that is categorically the lack of a bug's existence.

 

[JosEPh_II]

So there's two bugs for someone to fix.

These were designed by Hydromancer and as such have been left as they were originally set with no Preq Tech. If you have a problem with this perhaps you should PM Hydro and see if he will reply?
As a former lead designer we have left as much as possible of Hydro's work intact where we could.