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can't win domination victory

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by apocalypse105, Jan 3, 2014.

  1. apocalypse105

    apocalypse105 Deity

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    Could someone give me some tips on how to win a domination victory?

    I usally can beat emperor on any victory except domination . Each time I go for a domination victory I end up going for a science or culture victory.

    Usaly you have to change you're victory progress because the map isn't suited for it for example it ins't smart going for a culture victory if you can't trade to everyone for the toruisme modifier. What map conditions are the best if you want to go for a domination victory?

    At the time I captured my second capital the hole world hates me and I usally get a embargo against me and city state embargo in the world congress i lose so much gold that the game is olmost over

    Or I am doing well and have capture some capitals when suddenly I get massive ideology pressure against me that causes me to get massive :mad:
    And it jus can't recover from my happiness.

    Does anybody have a good guide or tips to achieve domination victory?
     
  2. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    You need to rely on city connections for income (which should in any case be your primary source of income past the early game if playing wide on any strategy, and with all your puppets a domination player will be playing wide) - this is one reason playing on a Pangea helps (the other is, obviously, that everyone is more accessible for your armies), and in any case you want the roads to move your army. City connections over sea are much more profitable, but probably not advisable for a domination player since they can be blockaded.

    Also try and control the World Congress - having city-states as your allies helps anyway because you don't need to fight them and sometimes they'll distract or even attack your enemies. Capturing the Forbidden Palace will help (while you'll want to prioritise capturing Machu Picchu for the income).

    As a disclaimer, I don't try for domination victories myself so most of the above is theory rather than practice (except the economic importance of city connections).
     
  3. Denkt

    Denkt Left permamently

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    Trade posts can give alot of gold and if you can't trade with Caravans you should have them transport food or production and togther with conquest of new cities farms dont make much of sens anymore because of happines and should be replaced with trade posts.
     
  4. apocalypse105

    apocalypse105 Deity

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    True but the other problem is that the Ai sometimes ban luxuries which causes problems in the world congress :(
     
  5. Denkt

    Denkt Left permamently

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    Not much you can do about it, but to have alot if not all CS as allies and maybe bribe some ai's but that is hard to do if they hate you.
    To bad you can't give your people gold for happines but that would make late game happines way to easy to get.

    However idiologies can give quite a nice happines bost but only if you got a good amount Culture to keep your civ from disorder.

    Chose it on what the civs pressure you hardest have chosen Before anything else and you should be fine.

    But the first post sounded that only gold was the real problem in which way you should TP spam
     
  6. Zaimejs

    Zaimejs Emperor

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    The key is to start early. If you are going to dominate, then dominate. Usually, I'll take a couple capitals nearby before trebuchets. Before everyone in the world knows me and my enemies.

    Ships are awesome if your enemies have port cities. Frigates are for the win.

    Ideologies in the late game are the key. You have to work toward happiness. I also try to have 600 gold saved so that after I puppet a city for however many turns it takes for it to not be in revolt, I can instantly buy a courthouse.

    Sometimes it is hard to stay happy and dominate. You have to balance and prepare for the worst.

    The worst thing is taking a city as a price of peace from another civ. This just stalls everything because you get a ton of unhappiness all at once. Wicked trap.
     
  7. RaidandTrade

    RaidandTrade Prince

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    Yup... Took a 17 pop city in a peace deal when I was already 8 unhappy. Man did that hurt!
     
  8. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Not sure about domination specifically, but I've generally stopped using trade posts outside jungle or a specific commerce city, now that they give a flat 1 gold for most of the game (the old strategy of trade posts by rivers no longer applies) - a 2 food, 1 gold tile isn't generally a lot of use for anything without a lot of them to work, and the extra food from a farm ultimately nets you more science than +1 from a trade post from Rationalism.

    Very map dependent, though - if you start with no iron, you can pretty much forget early domination unless you're Persia or the Huns (or Assyria at the outside, but I've found that losing catapults hurts them more than gaining siege towers helps, at least unless your enemy's cities are in very open terrain). You probably don't want to be going off the beaten tech path for Civil Service as a domination player (again, unless Persia, who get both Immortal pikes and a lot of help with domination from Chichen Itza, or of course Zulu), since you can't usefully promote pikes, you want the production from Metal Casting, and following a military tech path Longswords are only a tech or so later than Civil Service is on other paths.
     
  9. Denkt

    Denkt Left permamently

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    They give 2 gold after economics one more if you get full comerce amd one science if you get that rationalism policy, that is pretty strong compared to farms or mines.

    Pop growth is Heavy punished for big cities paying like 100-200 food for one pop make farms not look that good anymore and mines may give the far more effective production but gold is far more flexible and be able to have all cities to work on the same goal is why gold is so good sometimes.
     
  10. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    You don't use the farms for "heavy" pop growth, you use them to support specialists (including merchants if needed) - happiness is much less of a constraint on both growth and expansion in BNW than money shortages, which is why this thinking strikes me as out of date. Trading post spam is so 2012.

    Sure, happiness penalties are now much more severe than they were in G&K (when unhappiness could basically be ignored for large stretches since all it did was slow the pop growth that caused unhappiness to begin with), and particularly for a domination player given the effects on combat strength, but you're much more often going to be short of money than short of happiness, especially as a domination player who can't trade with anyone.

    In the early game when money to maintain your army is at a premium, trading posts don't do a lot, nor do they unlock early along a tech path that's convenient for warmongers (except Persia and the Zulu, since Guilds is a prerequisite for Civil Service). As for food, there's a reason Tradition is considered the strongest policy tree in the game (with the possible exception of Rationalism) - you really can't have too much of the stuff, and it's easy to 'convert' food into non-food production such as specialists or working production if you're in danger of overpopulation. Farms give you food when you want it early in the game (and there's no reason you can't turn them into trading posts once you hit Economics; what else are your workers doing at that point?), and that's pretty vital for a warmonger to get their production tiles worked since those tiles aren't producing surplus food. No production tiles, no army. No population growth, no getting military techs before they're obsolete.

    Whatever my strategy, I use many more farms than trading posts - not enough basic tiles give more than 2 food as a yield to do without them.

    Basic economy management for domination:

    Befriend city-states and trade.

    Develop city connections and build as few maintenance-requiring buildings as you can get away with.

    Try to get by with an army of maybe 10 units at most.

    Complete Honor for the money finisher and at least open Commerce for the opener and Mercenary Army.

    Attack early - the OP is having trouble with Congress resolutions, but you should have enough captured cities to have decent city connections before the Congress is founded.

    Play Songhai.
     
  11. Denkt

    Denkt Left permamently

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    I did not say anything really about getting trading post early.
    I think gold gets stronger the bigger you get compared to food and production because of its flexibellity.

    Tradions is very overrated, good in many cases but not like best in all times, yes it do have good advanatge but its description read best for smal empires which its good for and fist many players strategies of getting a good early game.

    However if you get like 10-15 cities peacefully then tradition don't look as good because these cities will grow so fast happines become a big problem.

    Speciallist are limited to what Buildings you can build while very powerful you should have a lot of these.

    For extra gold trade post may be needed.

    You can conquer them early on but you could chose to wait and build up your economy a bit more Before you attack.
     
  12. joshua43214

    joshua43214 King

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    Next time you fire up the game, open the tech tree and compare Pikes to Long Swords, then consider how long it will take to get a very very marginal increase in strength for the LS, compared to a very science friendly path to getting pikes. Moral or the story: do not make iron based units, ever, even if you have an iron based UU.

    By your post, I can tell you are neglecting science, and you are waiting too long.
    The simplest, most reliable path to domination on any difficulty is the "arty rush."
    Play a Tradition 3 city science focused game (on Deity you do better with 4 to ensure tech parity), 3 is better than 4 because happiness can be a major issue. Liberty is inferior for domination because you get no gold and no happiness from it (the happy for city connections is a massive joke). Tradition gives you gold just for growing a tall capitol, and you can grow it twice the size.
    Now, just get a fast NC, head right to education, then head for dynamite, you bulb dynamite with Oxford, then up to scientific theory, and onto Radio (not industrialization, Radio is faster), then bio/flight or plastics depending on map.
    Get both barracks up in all cities once you have Steel, build 2 cannon in each city (get barrage), upgrade to arty. build some horsemen/knights for city capture. Finish tradition, 3 into commerce, 2 into rationalism, then Autocracy or Order. I usually go Autocracy buy a bunch of units then feel free to switch if I get pressure.
    Start with a civ fairly far away, build a second army and conquer closer to home. Inland starts are best on anything other than a water map. You can embark to the next continent just fine, I do it all the time. Coastal starts suck because, you need a navy, and your TR's are very vulnerable. Inland starts rule because you do not have to waste hammers on a navy, and your TR's are much safer.
    If you do not stop conquering, you can ignore a negative gpt, get some landsknecht and pillage like mad,

    EDIT: I forgot to mention, just raze everything but capitols. You win by controlling all the capitols, not by having some stupidly huge empire that just drags down your tech and happiness. If you are trying to puppet your enemy, you are doing it wrong
     
  13. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

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    I've won a domination victory in emperor difficulty once. Since it was an island map, I was able to wonder spam enough to get a few wonders. However, I got a Dow from different civilizations. I got traditional start with rationalism finisher, and that's how I took the victory little by little. To dominate, all you need is their capitals, not all their cities. I probably got lucky, but by the time I was done, I was taking the last capital with missile cruisers.
     
  14. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    You're not doing it for the longswords, you're doing it because the longswords are on the gunpowder path, both tech path and promotion path; not incidentally, you'll also have teched to Machinery ASAP for crossbows, and Machinery is not on the way to Civil Service. Civil Service is not just a question of unit strength, it's a question of having to build those units. That's why it's great for Persia, not so much for most other civs - most players aren't going to have a horde of spearmen. A domination civ wants units it promotes early and often - a unit that turns into a lancer that has a city attack penalty is fundamentally wasted.

    Sure, don't make the units, but you still want the tech path.

    This is sadly very true, and the core reason it's inferior in general. I'm pretty convinced that Liberty needs a "reduced maintenance on buildings" policy, much as commerce has reduced maintenance on roads.

    That sounds solid, but bear in mind that my commentary was specifically on the suggestion a previous poster made of attacking early - i.e. pre-World Congress (since the poster in question suggested hitting before your enemies had made contact with other civs that would incur a warmonger penalty). It's that which I was describing as very map-specific because of the iron requirement (regardless of whether you upgrade or build the iron-hungry units).

    As far as the original poster is concerned, this looks like great general advice that will help him out (and I'd certainly bear it in mind myself if aiming for a domination victory), but in the way of general advice it's not great for seizing opportunities a particular start gives you. If you're Rome, have a nearby (potential) enemy and discover 6 iron in your capital's radius, you don't want to follow a rule that says "never build units that require iron" just because - if using iron units is the correct approach in that context, take it.

    Not explicitly, certainly, but you were suggesting taking trading posts instead of farms. If you're going for trading posts later, there's no need for any trade-off - you build the farms, then replace them if you need to (unless you have jungle or forest you want to preserve).

    More importantly, it's the early game when you most need gold, and the early to mid game that the OP seems to be describing. It's my point that trading posts aren't much help at this game stage if that's when you're going dominating.

    Ultimately, no resource is as flexible as food - it equals science, which money can't buy (it can buy several science buildings, but these all produce science based on numbers of citizens, and/or need specialists to fill them, which are both dependent on food. Playing domination, RAs are out of the question), and it can be funnelled into any kind of tile production and into specialists that produce science, gold, production, culture (or a mix of these, with the right policies).

    There is one truism that has held true through five editions of Civ: Monarchy rules (pun intended). In Civs I to III it was the best government type for most of the game, in Civ IV it was the best way of managing happiness for much of the game, in Civ V ... it's the best way of managing happiness for much of the game. And gives you a lot of gold. Legalism is good, the finisher is good, Landed Elite is brilliant and Aristocracy is a useful minor happiness boost, but ultimately the reason to go Tradition is Monarchy, one of the best single social policies in the game. If you're neglecting it yourself it may explain why you find happiness to be a major issue - you really don't need a tall empire, just a single large capital (and trade routes make that very easy to obtain) with smaller satellite cities. Take your example of a 15 city empire below: that's 15 happiness from Liberty. If you complete Tradition, you get that from a 30 pop capital alone, plus an extra 3 happiness from Aristocracy.

    This can be true, however Tradition just gives you a 10% bonus on what you're already producing - if you stop producing food once you hit a certain point, as I suggested, then Tradition adds nothing. Alternatively, you could always just fill out the four strong Tradition policies and ignore Oligarchy - that way you don't fill out the tree and you don't get the aqueducts or 10% growth bonus. Or get Great Engineers with faith, of course, but you can always wait and fill out the final policy late.
     
  15. joshua43214

    joshua43214 King

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    lol, don't build muskets either. In fact don't build any units on the gunpowder path except GWI's and avoid them if possible. Pikes are the best melee unit in the game, they hold their own defensively against rifles, and are perfect for defending range units from mounted attacks that tend to decimate them. They will even stand up against GWI's when well promoted and fortified. They should not be upgraded until you can replace them with Infantry and then they should be upgraded all the way to cav. landsknechts on the other hand should be upgraded right away to lancers, and used hard for pillage and city capture. A handful of pikes defending artillery, with lancers to jump in for line of sight, pillage and city capture is an unstoppable force.

    You only head to early machinery in a c-bow/x-bow rush. Players who are struggling with domination will have a very hard time with c-bow/x-bow rush. Arty rush is more reliable to learn how to just push and push hard while not neglecting science and other fundamentals. The worst thing that can happen is you fail to clear the map before the AI gets flight and you have to turtle until you get anti-aircraft. In and arty rush, you only want the original 3 or 4 archers you made early for barb control upgraded to x-bows, they do a nice job of harassing units while your arty does the heavy lifting.
     
  16. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    As an aside, I find it a little unfortunate that Landsknechts were placed in Civil Service - sure, that's where they belonged as a pike upgrade, but they're of rather more limited use when you can get pikes at the same point anyway. Granted, I'm not sure where on a military path would be a better fit (the obvious thematic places on the tech tree are Guilds and Banking, neither of which much helps), but unless you're rolling in money (and you usually aren't at that game stage, or at least I'm usually not), they're not all that helpful - except, as you say, to quickly promote and pillage. If you're going domination, you already want to have the units (and if you're adamant about going down the pike route, you'll have built early spearmen).

    This could certainly explain why I don't play domination...

    EDIT: In case this discussion is confusing the original poster, I recommend deferring to your experience since as I noticed my comments are based on theorising. I don't think we're really in particular disagreement - my point was to caution against a suggestion that one attack early on the basis that it's map-dependent; yours seems to be not to do it at all. Though I am surprised you favour the Civil Service tech path more generally.
     
  17. Magma_Dragoon

    Magma_Dragoon Reploid

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    Conquest is the vc that requires the most attention to diplo. You either steamroll everyone before the industrial era and diplo doesn't really matter, or you don't start until artillery (or maybe cannons and upgrade along the way) and manipulate everyone you trade with into hating your first few victims. Biggest threat first, usually someone you bribed into a war and was a bit too successful.

    If you do it half-assed and attack indiscriminately, you become the guy everybody hates, and it slows down your economy. No external trade routes is a bummer, but spending all your gold to bribe people who hate you from banning your luxuries is very bad.
     
  18. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Just as a query, has anyone tried trading embargoed luxes? Embargo means you lose the happiness from that type of lux, but (counterintuitively) it doesn't mean it can't be traded. If an AI will accept a gold trade for a useless lux it's something of an exploit, but I wouldn't be surprised if it works.
     
  19. Erelich

    Erelich Chieftain

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    What about if I capture a non capital that has some nice wonders? Say for example Notre Dame, the happiness from that would offset the city happiness penalty.
     
  20. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    The no-navy no-diplo conquer before ideologies strategy is brilliant, but more reliable for practiced deity players. On Emperor it's just misplaced theory - you don't get to constantly leach money and science from the AI and it's much harder to tech to artillery on as low a turn count as your guide depends on, and much easier to flounder with a turtle-tradition start when all you have is 4 stagnant cities clicking techs away 6 turns at a time while one of the AIs potentially conquers their continent and techs ahead.

    Emperor and most Immortal domination games require robust mid-game navy, CS-alliance, and culture/ideology focus.

    I think the OP is best served following another poster's advice to just adopt whatever the strongest culture civ has taken.

    Barring that no-brainer approach, there are a few more complex workable strategies. Such as building all the culture wonders yourself and then using Lightning Warfare to roll over the map - this worked fine for me on Emperor as Arabia. No Ideology problems because you already won at tourism. Or if you don't have all the culture wonders, target the civ that does have them first. This works extra-great if that civ stole them, because no one gets mad at you for stomping them, but I found it works fine if not, during a successful Immortal dom run as Denmark. Unlike CV, domination victories don't have to fall apart if you get a late start. Immortal is a sweet spot because the AI does lots of conquest after flight, so you won't be ganged-up on in World Congress - everyone still alive is the bad guy. The point is use your first set of warmonger points on getting all the good wonders. Now you have all the culture and tourism and happiness. That was easy. Go conquer the world.

    Regarding only keeping capitals, that's really not necessary. Autocracy and Order both make it easy to stay in positive happiness while conquering every good city you catch your eye on. Again, that's where the robust mid-game culture focus comes in. Order's Iron Curtain is an invincible city-eating policy, just annex annex annex, but it's Tier 3. Autocracy you just go for the happiness from Barracks, tier 2 - your annexed captures can build those very quickly with Honor if you've got that.
     

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