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[RD] Capitalism, Prosperity and Social equity

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Birdjaguar, Apr 26, 2020.

  1. haroon

    haroon Deity

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    True, changing the current government through activism or politic for me is not practical. What is practical? Now I hate flexing, but my company at the least most lowest program that still on going currently beside the covid is feeding at least more than 1000 people monthly. This is the most small program that I mentioned, we are bunch of young people leading a company me and my Boss are among the oldest, and we do have ideology. So if that micro-battle is a big fart for other people, you know screw them.
     
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  2. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

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    One of the things that strikes me as a bit weird about the way the media analyse this sort of thing is the absence of politics. Whenever historians (or even anthropologists) try to understand similar problems over long periods, by contrast, it's to the victor goes the spoils, the powerful being the ones in the position to take the best things available. What all those countries have in common is being key allies of the USA, or rather are key part of the alliance system that protects and enforces the world's current economic order. There are plenty of other states with capitalist economic systems, or where the ruling order try to impose such systems, but they don't have the advantageous trade relations to provide the wealth that would create the stability they would need for some of the other things those countries have in common. The matter is obviously very complicated and there are a lot of other things in play, but why not instead of viewing the world merely as a series of economic laboratories where wealth is created by whatever 'economic system' is favoured, why not instead try to analyse the politics and see what explanatory power comes from that?


    You have societies excluded from the bulk of the world's economic system through politics. Similarly, you always hear Cuba's economic problems explained in the western media as a side-effect of the economic system (as an economic system), which may have some truth to it who knows, yet being subject to economic warfare from the most powerful economic and military superpower in history doesn't complicate it any. It's bonkers.

    You can have access to all the 'wealth' you like, but humans need water, food, housing, air, health care, etc, no economic system can be said to serve 'humans in general' if it makes any of those things less accessible; yet even in Western countries these things are taxed heavily by the elite as 'profit' and rent to the extent that some Westerners struggle to meet these needs; and our elites incentivize the elites of poor countries to endanger the availability of those things to their own people, such as converting the rich farmland of the Nile to the use of cash crops...all so that more dollars can end up getting stuck in tax havens; and so we create surpluses of capital in western countries that cause damaging economic bubbles and prevent even moderately wealthy westerners affording housing, we destroy the planet and disinherit our children, and of course as we see in the US we corrupt political and judicial systems to the extent that democracy itself becomes little more than a ritualistic facade where the plebs are riled up every four years around the rhetoric employed by the servants of whatever tweedle-dumb and tweedle-dee are placed before them in elections.
     
  3. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Failing subsidy to correct the incentives... cash crops let you buy shoes from a shoemaker. Subsistence crops let you make your own shoes. The loop can be closed off wherever you want the shoemaker to live. Food can certainly be cash cropped? Fertile ground can also be overcropped. Anywhere irrigation is widespread or fallowing doesn't happen, there is certainly that long term risk.

    Is the argument that food infrastructure is meaningfully weaker than it should be because of cash cropping, and food stores are not maintained? Distribution rather than production does usually seem to be the sticking point, particularly where people have a history of murdering each other over the distribution of power. Widespread drought events usually seem to screw food crops as well as commercial ones.
     
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  4. Truthy

    Truthy Chatbot

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    A lot of this debate really just boils down to this.
     
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  5. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    Who, me? I find Marx's writings extremely dull and largely irrelevant to the world post-1950ish. Similarly, Stalinism and Maoism - they are not relevant to my world and experience.

    Sure. And they're fun, to a point. But it's ludicrous to elevate the trolley problem to some form of "Pillar of Wisdom", or plan for the future course of humanity. You might as well throw in Solipsism and 1st year arguments about free will and determinism.

    Pro tip: Overwhelming numbers have a quality all their own. ;)

    Why would I? I don't even have a problem if you do less than zero.
    I hope you don't have a problem with me thinking that anyone with a plan for the future of humankind is a naive fool, and that it's something that makes me laugh, do you?
    Or that there is any philosophical system that includes spirituality as equivalent to the physicist's Theory of Everything?
    If you do, that's your problem. :)

    Didn't l.p. die about the same time as Stalin. :)
     
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  6. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Meh. Taking potshots at other people's positions without making any commitment to a position yourself is extremely dull to read too. And I struggle to imagine how that would strike anyone as relevant to their world and experience. Definitely makes for an extremely pointless exchange, somewhat ironically.
     
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  7. haroon

    haroon Deity

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    A while ago you're calling for some action like a Leninist now you went full Albert Camus.
     
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  8. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    Plague times, plague sentiments. :p
     
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  9. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    Because it's an internet forum, not an essay-marking exercise.
    Thoughts and prayers, comrade!
     
  10. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    Basically most of those countries inherited Westminster style politics.

    Wealth required political stability, and respect for law. That means the local king or whatever can't seize your property. Reasonably open and free markets as well (Germany counts as well, you don't need US style markets)

    I can't remember the rest of it.

    UK has been politically stable since 1688, USA 1776. In the 18th Century UKs economy doubled in size 5 times iirc and outspent Napoleon 2-1 with 1/5th if the population.

    If you had money were would you invest 100k?

    Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore or Syria, Zimbabwe, Russia or Turkey?

    Zimbabwe used to export food. Now look at it.
     
  11. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    I'll play if you define "invest", an objective function and a time period. :)
     
  12. haroon

    haroon Deity

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    Put more money in it and I suggest you to invest in Angola, their natural resources are privatized. That's where a huge corporation like Exxon and Mobile Oil put their money.

    How about Indonesia? Gold, coal and oil over-there are privatized for trans/multi-national company to exploit? Giant corporation like Total get fat from Kalimantan oil, a small company like Free Port get huge from gold in Papua.

    As long as the corrupt leader and politician rule, and you can dictate their economy to produce more debt, you can always take what they have.
     
  13. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    If you're big enough yes.

    If you're not a corporation or have government clout behind you.

    It's a major reason why England became so rich. Middle class Europeans invested in England over say German states, France and Spain.

    Even a growth rate of 2-3% compounded over a century is huge. Do that for two or 3 centuries you have UK and USA.
     
  14. haroon

    haroon Deity

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    I said that as an irony, what I wanted to say that political stability and respecting law are not the only possible reasons of wealth accumulation, wealth accumulation is not necessarily a sign of good governance, there can be other factor at play. Like I'm wealthy by exploiting the poverty of my neighbor for instance.

    If you ask for 100k investment you might get your answer. But if it's millions dollar investment, perhaps if you ignore any moral reason, you can chose the most corrupt yet resourceful country to invest.
     
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  15. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    The wealthiest nations in the world in terms of GDP PER CAPITA (outside Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Monaco, Andorra, and Vatican City), not total GDP, not industrial output, not currency dominance, but GDP per capita, are the Persian Gulf Monarchies. They just sit on huge oil reserves and make a big show of being Western allies (while groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda and such were following the exact same warped pseudo-Islamic cult, Wahabism - which is no more properly practiced Islam than Falwell, Robertson, Paisley, and Niles' cults of hate, war, greed, and death are properly followed Christianity - that is the state religion of at least two of those Persian Gulf Monarchies: Saudi Arabia and Qatar). Despite this, and these nations being the kind of horrible dictatorships with God-awful human rights records that are denounced as a generic concept in Western foreign affairs rhetoric, most of the Western nations you listed above (with the exception of Japan) have differing levels of military alliance to jump to these backward, barbaric, oppressive, autocratic chieftainates' defense with overwhelming military force with any threat of foreign aggression against them. Why? Because of oil. Is blood worth oil in ANY exchange rate?
     
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  16. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    The Tzars of Russia had a pretty stable thing going for quite a while. The laws they had were enforced. I think it takes more than stability and respect for laws to produce economic wealth.

    Apparently a lot of people think so, as long as it is not their blood. Greed often trumps the lives of those we don't know or care about.
     
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  17. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    LOL do you actually believe this?
     
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  18. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    It was definitely the best place for them to invest the millions they made during the tulip bonanza.
     
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  19. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    Political stability is one of 5 ingredients. They taxed the serfs to much, main income was vodka tax. Easy to get steel and coal was a problem.
     
  20. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    Real countries, not petri states and city state s. Petro states tend to have artificial ones based on oil.

    City states also semi artificial.
     

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