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Capitalizing on Papal Primacy

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by beetle, Oct 30, 2013.

  1. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    What is the best strategy for capitalizing on Papal Primacy?

    I am trying my hand for the third time at GOTM 51. If it happens, this would be my first win at Deity, hence my willingness for self-flagellation.

    I have pretty much determined that my only hope is a Diplomatic Victory, and I assume that Papal Primacy and Aesthetics are going to be a required component of that. Arabia, Spain, and Persia are heavily spamming missionaries, and they all get a head start on me, but still I have a fair selection of choices. I don’t expect Religious Texts to be available, but I can probably get either Messiah or Religious Unity. There are only four City States within the ten hex pressure range of any of my four cities, and each of those is only within range of one of my cities, so I don’t think Religious Unity will really do anything for me. Is Messiah is my best hope? Also, I picked up Pagodas, but would the faith spent on four religious buildings be better spent towards a Great Prophet? Or should I give up Papal Primacy for Tithe and hope the extra money for CS gifts makes the different at the end game?

    Thanks!
     
  2. FeiLing

    FeiLing Deity

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    I don't think a strong religion is an option on deity. Even getting one in the first place is purely luck, spreading it against their armies of missionaries is absolutely futile.
     
  3. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Yeah, aiming for, and relying on, religion on that particular map was an exercise in futility. Better to plow your resources into infrastructure and military, and focus on CS quests for influence. Also, get to Aesthetics + Pledge to Protect (the recent patch's nerf to Pledge does not apply to G&K), as soon as you can.
     
  4. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    I appreciate the sentiment that this particular map is a tough set up, and I certainly agree, but I have found all deity scenarios to be impossible to win!

    That said, the map has only five AI opponents (and four religions). Even at deity level, I can usually found a religion if I make that a priority. In any case, on this particular map, founding a religion is straightforward: (1) Meet the nearby religious CS. (2) Build an early shrine. (3) There is no step three.

    With only three competing religions, the benefits are not too picked over. Defending my religion in my cities has been straightforward too.

    I am just hoping to leverage a little more out of religion, and I think Papal Primacy might be the edge I need. The early Aesthetics and Pledge to Protect are obvious (even to me), but those were not close to enough in my first tries. Any recommendations beyond giving up?

    P.S., Thank you Browd for your guide to religion. Super awesome!
     
  5. Deau

    Deau Emperor

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    edit half of what I had written was BnW even though I did notice it was GnK - completely phased out writing. Sorry!
     
  6. Maxym

    Maxym King

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    Yeah I would not use PP you need ur religion in CS and good luck with that with Spain and Arabs. , just go with pledge and consulates and take someone out early and pay AIs to war each other.
     
  7. Arilian

    Arilian King

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    You really do not need religion on that map :)
     
  8. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Given that a diplomatic victory is generally considered easy (or even lame or cheesy), would not Papal Primacy be a useful component to that? Is it just too weak to ever be useful at deity?
     
  9. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    The problem with Papal Primacy is that it only works if the CS keeps your religion. On Deity you are very likely to see multiple AIs spamming their religion around the map, particularly from the mid-game onwards, so you either lose the influence benefit that PP is supposed to provide or have to burn oodles of faith on missionaries and GPs just to stay in the religion game.

    Hard enough generally, but on that particular map (from that GOTM), keeping your religion spread was like trying to hold back the tide with a fork.
     
  10. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Is this not the same problem with almost all of the Founder Beliefs?

    You have convinced me that Papal Primacy is useless on this map. In my experience at Deity, getting a CS to keep my religion is unusual on most maps.

    At Diety, is Papal Primacy ever useful? Pledge to Protect gets almost as much influence. So circumstances would have to be that I really need both, or for some reason I really want to avoid Pledge to Protect. I am assuming that the only practical point of Papal Primacy is to save (or even avoid) spending money on CS bribes over time. Is that a fair assessment?

    It seems to me that the 15 point of influence is would only really noticeable when your religion is snowballing, and that is quite rare at deity!

    Even at deity, with certain CS placement, it is possible that a handful of CS might reliably keep my religion. But, in those same circumstances, wouldn’t Pledge to Protect come with even less risk? If I can depend on a CS keeping my religion, it seems pretty obvious to me that Church Property would generate a lot more money than Papal Primacy might save me!
     
  11. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    I've never found Papal Primacy to be all that compelling, for the reasons you state.
     
  12. JeSuisNapoleon

    JeSuisNapoleon Prince

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    Sounds like you should have taken Piety policies, used accumulated faith to buy Prophets, saved them for near the end and then converted as many CS as possible in a short time frame. Then, keep as many as possible as allies for the diplomatic vote. This would probably require moving the GP's into position many turns in advance and then using them as fast as possible. seems tricky at best. will they get captured if someone DoW's you? will they get blocked while traveling? will you provide a unit for protection of each one?

    its not a strategy I would rely on alone. the diplomatic vote tends to cause every AI in the game to go on a mad rush to get allies as well. Would the Papal Primacy give you the edge? you would also need Patronage IMO, so you might be sacrificing rationalism AND some other policy group.

    Did I read correctly you have both Tradition AND liberty? seems like you should have picked one, and then gone for Patronage. after that you could choose between Piety or something else, but Piety allows for buying Prophets. If you go Rationalism, you will want to spend faith on scientists.

    Yeah Papal primacy is not my favored tenet. I might take it if I was playing Siam, because... Siam.
     
  13. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Yikes!

    PP only get 15 points of influence. I was just looking to tweak my approach, not trying to turn PP into a game-changer.

    Nope.
     
  14. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    In the final analysis, it makes sense to think of Papal Primacy as a gold-saving mechanism. Every time a player manages to work PP, that translates to 15 influence points that don’t have to be acquired through a gift of gold. CS influence through gold is relatively expensive, more than 10:1. So when PP is capitalized on, I would argue that it has a value of at least 150 gold.

    Since Papal Primacy comes down to saving gold, it is also logical to compare it to the founder beliefs that generate gold. Making more rough estimates, I will assume 15 IP translates into 15 extra turns of a foreign city following my religion. That would only generate 30 gold from Church Property, and Tithe is in the same ballpark.

    Of course, both Church Property and Tithe work on all AI civs and not just CS, but under the assumption that spreading your religion is a temporary fragile thing, it does seem to me that PP is about five times better than CP or Tithe when it comes down to generating gold from outside your civ.

    But five times a very small number is still a small number.

    I think it is much more significantly that Church Property and Tithe generate gold from your own cities.

    From now on, I am picking Initiation Rites over any of the three above!
     

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