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Capitulation should be the same as capturing capital city for domination victory

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Boombar, Mar 24, 2020.

  1. Boombar

    Boombar Chieftain

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    Because i just love that victory screen so much
     
  2. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes King

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  3. AnemoneMeer

    AnemoneMeer Chieftain

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    Agreed. Would remove the problem of having to declare war on your own vassals to close out the game when there's no reason to do so.
     
    Drakul, Zuizgond, SupTo and 1 other person like this.
  4. andersw

    andersw Emperor

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    MM yes and no, its no good if AI's caves in too easy.
    That was one of the bad things in Civ4, AI peace vassaling.
    It would probably mean a huge boost to agressive AIs and warmongering humans.
     
  5. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

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    I haven't seen a victory screen in months.. Once I know I will win or have no chance of winning I start a new game.
     
    saamohod, Erikose, SupTo and 3 others like this.
  6. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    This sounds interesting... I'm in favor simply because it would equate to less unnecessary grinding in late game, and would help keep dom games in-line with other vc's in terms of actual time played in-game.
     
    Maxxim69, Erikose and vyyt like this.
  7. Cat-du-fromage

    Cat-du-fromage Warlord

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    +1 when we think about it, vassals are your property so by extension their cities are also your cities. And most of the time vassalage are the result of a total victory from a previous war
     
  8. 4CV

    4CV Warlord

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    :thumbsup:
    Spoiler :

    1stAid.png
     
    vyyt likes this.
  9. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    I think vassals in general should be nerfed and not as permanent and safe as they are know, so I vote no. Many times you need capital or majority of cities captured to force any AI to capitulate anyway.
     
    vyyt and Recursive like this.
  10. AnemoneMeer

    AnemoneMeer Chieftain

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    I'm inclined to agree on this as well. Vassals should be very prone to revolt the instant their master is put into a bad position. If they can no longer successfully protect the vassal due to lost army and such, the vassal should be looking to revolt. If you win domination because you hold a few vassals who still own their capitals, you should be winning it because every single threat to you is dead or enslaved, not because you managed a suicide blitz on several capitals at once regardless of the losses.

    Vassal revolts should be extremely easy to have happen to you if you start falling behind and simply having a poor warscore should be enough to trigger them.

    ---------------------

    Edit: Imo, the ideal state for vassals to be in is that the weakest, most crippled AI's end up as it, and treat it as a form of protection to remain in the game. If they get put into a situation where their master can no longer ensure that they will make it to the end of the game, they revolt almost instantly. It should be nearly impossible to get AI's who aren't completely doomed to agree to be vassals, and it should be highly improbable that an AI that is on its last legs and ripe for conquest does not become a vassal in the next 20 turns once it is at peace.

    Likewise, vassal holding civs should be stronger than those who do not hold them, but also in an extremely precarious position where a single loss ruins it all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  11. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    I agree. But make them just neutral, normal AI after revolt, which declares its independence, and immidiately can turn world upside-down with defensive pacts for example. It would be much more impactful and dangerous than simply making them at war with you which many times would be just tedious war once again, especially since my vasals tend to have only several outdated units and two or three weak cities.
     
  12. AnemoneMeer

    AnemoneMeer Chieftain

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    The game supports temporary promotions, so you could simply boost the vassal's army with a patriotic fervor promotion and make up the gap that way. Likewise if you cancel any additional wars they are in.
     
  13. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    Okay, but the thing is: what would be the point of such war? If you already managed to destroy one AI, it is highly possible you are in good position, have high population and production with many cities, and have experienced units to spare to defend yourself from the tiny army of your vassal. Vassal goal of gaining independence would be already accomplished, and their focus should be getting alliances and securing they survival, instead of declaring on someone much more powerful, basically sealing their doom. Even with some bonus promotions, you can take them down, or at least defend succesfully.
     
  14. AnemoneMeer

    AnemoneMeer Chieftain

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    The main cause of them declaring war should be that you're no longer in a position to ensure their survival. If they get boosted units, declare war on you, and make peace with all parties at war with you in response to a war against you going poorly already, the end result is that they're naturally inclined to befriend and ally with the people currently at war with you. They're adding their forces to the people already attacking you and likely attacking from a different angle, which makes a mess of things and bogs down the player/AI holding the vassal(s).

    Even if you can beat them down regardless, it should cost you time and resources enough that the rest of the people at war with you can capitalize on it, and it would only be made worse by them getting allies and defensive pacts of their own or simply causing a cascade of problems for the player/AI.
     
  15. Good Ol’ Bender

    Good Ol’ Bender Chieftain

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    Same. I can’t remember the last time I played past the Industrial era. I just get so bored I end up starting a new game.
     
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  16. Heinz_Guderian

    Heinz_Guderian Warlord

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    Same here. It is my biggest problem with this game/mod currently.
     
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  17. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    My case is a little different, it is mostly when I am either totally screw up (which happens only early game) or clear dominant superpower but with no clear victory condition other than science. And I just hate science victory as of now. Basically cultural victories and one science are the only one I saw in two or three months.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  18. wabab

    wabab Chieftain

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    This is already the case though. You generally need to take the majority of their cities (usually capital) for them to capitulate. Which means you've also decimated their army.

    They can also propose global liberation in the WC, which they usually do if they happen to hold enough WC votes or if you have enough vassals with enough combined votes. So depending on era, you've got potential vassal "rebellion" every WC session. Having them likely to rebel is going to be more annoying than anything else, since they'll attempt it with a weak army. If you fail to get your warscore high enough, they won't capitulate again, so you'll be forced to raise your warmonger score by capturing their cities.
     
  19. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

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    I like vassals the way they are now myself. I would rather they not change outside of small tweaks.
     

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