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Capto Iugulum: 1920 - 1939

Discussion in 'Never Ending Stories' started by EQandcivfanatic, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Lord of Elves

    Lord of Elves Suede-Denim Secret Police

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    Worth pointing out that Sweden had been an empire for an indeterminate period of time, probably sometime in the 16/1700's. The "imperial" authority was derived in an entirely secular manner, vis a vis the King of Sweden being "King-Emperor" of Norway and Sweden's colonial territories. This authority was commuted to the dual monarchy of Christine and Harald I as Queen of Sweden and King of Norway and Emperor/Empress of Scandinavia -- the thrones of Sweden and Norway were reconciled after Harald I's death.
     
  2. EQandcivfanatic

    EQandcivfanatic Zailing Captain Retired Moderator

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    Of course what the whole conversation leads up to is that there IS precedent for a secular declaration of Empire, in this timeline anyways. On the surface, the mere act is not unreasonable, the question of course is what it'll do in regards to average life and the functioning of the new government of Burgundy. Of course, this also makes the issue of what to call someone from Paris-Burgundy moot, which I'm totally for.

    Anyways, at this point no more order revisions will be accepted, but I will continue to take new sets of orders. Also, stand by, as we may be doing things a little different this time, and now I'll explain what:

    I've considered the fact that due to RL, I can't really work on updates for 10-14 straight hours anymore. Therefore, by nessecity, updating will take longer. This of course creates gaps of time for the rest of you, which frankly, I dislike. As some of you know, in the past, when an event takes place that you should be able to react to ICly, I try to make contact over AIM or PM to get an official government response. I've decided to take this to the next level. When such an event takes place, during the period of updating, I will post an "EXTRA" mini-update discussing the event, and allowing any players to react, whether diplomatically or in mini-orders (I.e., orders without spending, just a political and/or military reaction). I think this will improve the overall quality, and while there will be a time limit for response to said extras, I think this reflects the constantly changing environment of a modern global system. Stay tuned for the first one of these, likely shortly after I close off order submissions altogether.
     
  3. Lokki242

    Lokki242 That One Guy

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    OOC: I just got AIM. How would I find y'all?
     
  4. Circuit

    Circuit Writing Letters

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    Maybe do Spring and Fall updates, like in Diplomacy? Each one is not as hefty?
     
  5. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    I look at two updates per year and think "twice as much work" but then I don't know the intricacies of CI.
     
  6. Nuka-sama

    Nuka-sama See ya! It has been a fun decade!

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    Jacksonia's flag

     
  7. Circuit

    Circuit Writing Letters

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    I like that better than California's RL flag, actually. But I think Jacksonia already has a flag; a white star on a blue field.

    I'd think he would reduce his load per update. And in Diplomacy, only certain things happen in certain parts of the year; no building until the Winter turn, for example, and supply centers aren't captured until the end of the fall turn, so the spring update might have spending orders, and the fall update might not. :dunno:
     
  8. Lord_Iggy

    Lord_Iggy Tsesk'ihe

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    Yes, Jacksonia already has a flag, but it can certainly be changed.
     
  9. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    The flag of Jacksonia is suspiciously similar to the OTL flag of Somalia. I like the yellow one better.
     
  10. Nuka-sama

    Nuka-sama See ya! It has been a fun decade!

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    And it has been >_> Glory to the new Jacksonia!
     
  11. Grandkhan

    Grandkhan Telvanni Master Wizard

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    Its a bit late, but my questions was more, "Why is Paris-Burgundy deciding to alienate every Parisian, which now comprises 90% of the population." than "Why is Burgundy suddenly an empire?"

    The greatest thing about Christos is that while everything he does is perfectly explicable retroactively should you decide to think about it, there still exists absolutely no reason, IC or OOC, for him to do any of it.

    I'm inclined to declare him the Best NESer because of this.
     
  12. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    OOC: It's worth noting, additionally, that the proto-fascist parties deviated in significant fashion from the fascists of OTL. Although they were nationalistic, they were rarely ever anti-individualist let alone anti-proletarist per se. As I understand it they were grounded more significantly in pretensions of Empire, which actually makes this whole balderdash make perfect sense!
     
  13. Bair_the_Normal

    Bair_the_Normal 全は禪

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    OOC: Despite the territory that Burgundy lost, it's still quite a bit larger than Paris, according to the CIEN maps. Though those are certainly good questions. :p
     
  14. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    There is precedent for a secular declaration of Empire amongst the heretics and Schismatics, in this timeline anyways. ;) (conveniently ignoring Germany for now, due to the incoming historical clarification with regards to the informal earlier recognition and so forth). Ergo, Burgundy's pretensions of Empire are first for such secular declarations in the Catholic world occuring without papal recognition/acceptance/approval. (Germany at least indisputably did have papal acceptance and recognition)

    PS: On the Phoenix Party, Spain does not Paris-Burgundy or a universal European phenomenon make, and as was noted by Crezth, it differed quite substantially from OTL fascists which begs the question of where "proto-fascist" in this timeline really is something quite different. Indeed I see the Phoenix Party not so much as fascist (although academically the parameters of what "fascist" really means is an area of debate), but as a manifestation of ultra-nationalism and jingoism in a period of rapid change for Spain for the worse. Now nationalistic sentiment of course was part of fascism, but the two are not mutually synonymous and fascism in its various incarnations was quite substantially broader ideologically and philosophically than simple nationalistic fervor.
     
  15. Grandkhan

    Grandkhan Telvanni Master Wizard

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    Phoenixism wasn't so much fascist as it was a) anti-democratic and b) intent on reestablishing the landed aristocracy as the dominant power in Spanish politics. Anything else was, as I explained to thomas.berebug, a means to an end.

    They weren't exactly anti-individualist, they just really, really hated democracy of any kind, since in Spain the creation of even limited democracy led to the Imperial Congress almost immediately expanding it every chance they got.

    Re: Emperors; its important to remember that of the six Empires currently extant, one was a backwater disaster site for the last twenty years, one is currently about to fall into its fourth civil war in sixty years and has basically ceased to be relevant, and one one is hiding out in the African jungle. Yes, Germany, Russia, and Brazil are still powerful, but the levels the other ones have sunk to implies that 'Emperor' isn't really that important compared to plain King any more. (Asia's concept of 'Emperor' is pretty different to the Wests', and I think its more of a translation of a title than the 'King of Kings' that it implies in the West).

    Especially given that there were and are other Great Powers who are just ruled by Kings (Britain, the Confederation, Italy), and were at one point all the most powerful nation on Earth.

    Calling yourself an Emperor really doesn't mean much more than 'I've got a gigantic ego.', and you don't really need the power to back it up since its 1930 and nobody really cares what you call yourself anymore.
     
  16. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    I think your retroactively applying a modern conception of Empire (mighty and powerful, and the same with that nations monarch) onto the debate. What is relevant, at least from the position Im arguing, is that the title Emperor in western tradition is one of honour. Ergo an Emperor is not necessarily more powerful than a King (a good example being the Byzantine Emperors prior to the Ottoman conquest), but he posesses a superior dignity and honour, which OTL was granted in the Catholic world only by the Pope, with the exception being Byzantium precisely because it was a continuation of the old Roman Empire in the east. (Incidentally, the Holy Roman Emperor OTL, to be an Emperor had to be crowned by the pope, if he wasn't he was officially merely "Holy Roman Emperor Elect").

    The point of this of course is that your assumption that "oh Emperors are not powerful anymore, ergo no one must care" is looking at it from the wrong perspective of what "Imperial' actually means, at least in the Catholic world. Hard power is not whats important here, what is important is the conception of imperial dignity and honour, and the idea that such honour and rank can only be granted from a position of superior rank and honour(so someone can not just declare themselves a duke, a King or an Emperor)

    Funnily enough this leads to a similar conclusion to yours. Ergo calling yourself Emperor makes one appear to be filled to the brim with hubris, although the difference would be that (and your statement that people don't care anymore is necessarily a subjective reflection) I would say the Burgundian action is of importance, precisely because its a challenge to the Order of the monarchical system of the Catholic world, and its underlying preconceptions of rank, honour and hierarchy. With this even applying to the broader world order considering the honour system presumably still applies even if the principle that only the Pope an Emperor can make is absent amongst the protestants and Eastern Orthodox (for obvious reasons), since the unilateral declaration of Empire basically is a slap in the face to all Emperors by virtue of the fact that this act subverts the idea of imperial dignity and rank, and would make the title Emperor ultimately meaningless (if anyone can call himself Emperor, whats to make the title different from any other monarchical title?). Not to mention of course that the imperial declaration by Paris-Burgundy is a direct and obvious challenge/insult to the German Empire in the context of recent CI history...
     
  17. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    Well, what makes the Phoenix Party - and to a lesser extent, the UJ's of Britain - special in this reality is that they were imperialist revivalist ultranationalists who emerged as a response to mass dissent. There's nothing like that anywhere else, and that's partly because of the unique conditions that spawned those two parties specifically. I think it's worth identifying them as separate from mainstream fascists on that point alone.

    And fascism as such is quite easily defined: it's nationalistic, anti-individualistic, and Third Way. Now I haven't been paying great attention but I'm not sure there's any movement quite like that in this timeline, though it might as well be since fascism emerged primarily as a force of opposition against communism and lefist hardliners. Since all proletarists are basically wannabe Stalinists anyway, a violent reactionary movement is to be expected, but I don't know the exact parameters of this timeline's "fascists." The bottom line is that the PP and UJ party were called proto-fascist for a reason, and that's that they weren't exactly fascist let alone Capto-fascist even if they had a lot in common with those philosophies. I mean, they also had a lot not in common with fascism. To make a comparison in the opposite direction, people conflate Nazism and fascism often, although they are very different political movements. Nazism was nationalistic, sure, but it wasn't really anti-individualistic, and definitely wasn't Third Way. What it was was horribly viciously racist, but that's a category all of its own.
     
  18. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    As I said what fascism actually consists of in ideological terms, is debated academically (Im actually doing a course on fascism and the far right in Europe atm ;) ), partly due to the many nuances of the various fascistic ideologies that developed in Europe during the 19th and early 20th centuries (nazism vs Italian fascism vs the far right in Eastern Europe for example). However you are not incorrect in what you say defines fascism at its fundamental core. The common core linking the fascistic ideologies was indeed a socially darwinistic conception of race inbued within nationalism (even Italian fascism had its "romanness" thing), the idea that the individual will should serve the state (the anti-individualism you describe I presume), and "third way" economics. Beyond this though, debate reigns, since (probably as a product of its nationalistic facet) there was diversity in fascistic ideology based on where it arose and so forth so beyond the generics the precise borders of what is fascist is a vague one.

    As to how fascism arose. From what I know, fascism arose as a response to the results of the advent of democracy within a context of colonialism and war. Namely the elites who implemented democracy in Europe suddenly found that the people voted for radicals and poor old parish priests and so forth, instead of maintaining the old order and doing as their local landlord requested. This caused social disorder and the elites, no longer able to maintain power themselves ended up supporting popular movements that opposed the leftist radicals (and were electable unlike the old conservatives) that were threatening order in an effort to retain some semblance of control. These proto-fascists they supported in devilish coalition, emerged spontaneously as a response to the leftist radicals, primarily from soldiers who through war developed the nationalism, sense of national superiority, loyalty to the state and so forth that would later evolve into a fascist ideology that eventually ditched the old elites and took power itself. With regards to Capto Iugulum however this scenario has not really occured. The waves of revolution that convulsed Europe in the 19th century have not occured to nearly the same degree as OTL, the old order for the most part has remained strong, and democratic systems developed far more gracefully as well without many of the problems associated with it OTL. Indeed even WWI and its aftermath which boosted fascism into a strong mainstream position in our own history has less of an analogue in CI. The conditions which created fascism are simply not present in Capto's Europe.

    Now with regards to the Phoenix party and so forth with reference to this and the question of whether they constitute some sort of proto-fascist equivalent. I would say in agreement with you that they are a unique phenomenon to Capto Iugulum (National Revivalists lets call them). I would disagree however with calling them fascists because they lack most of the fundamental defining characteristics of fascist ideology, namely third way economics, darwinistic racial nationalism (although they do have run of the mill ultra-nationalism) and the "cult of the state".
     
  19. ShadowNX

    ShadowNX Prince

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    Joining ...

    Venezuela: ShadowNX
    Formal Name: Republic of Venezuela
    Executive Republic: National Liberal Party (Liberal)
    Head of Government: President Luis Pisani (Liberal)
    Capital: Caracas
    Manpower: 221 (+3)
    Economic Points: 50 (+53)
    Domestic Spending : -3 EP
    -Education: -3 (2)
    Stability: 6
    Venezuelan National Army: 40 InfantryBrigades, 3 Cavalry Brigades, 15 Artillery Brigades
    Army Quality: 7
    Army Doctrine: American Federal Army 1912
    Venezuelan National Navy: 1 Nordenfelt-class Submarine, 7 Zygmunt-class Destroyer, 3 Patrick-class Destroyers, 2 Chościsko-class Light Cruisers, 2 Lioness-class Battlecruisers, 2 King Juan-class Battleships
    Navy Quality: 6
    National Army Air Corps: 1 AV-1-1 Fighter Squadron
    Air Force Quality: 1

    ooc: Bare with me as i digest all that is this game, i am up to date and hope to make a decent contribution as the great Venezuela nation.
     
  20. Jehoshua

    Jehoshua Catholic

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    Welcome to Capto Iugulum, may Venezuela never feel the need to invoke the wrath of its much larger neighbour :p
     

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