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Captured City Art Mod

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by Schmiddie, Mar 19, 2020.

  1. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    Hi Folks,

    long time ago I found a mod comp that allows a captured city to keep its city graphic - until the citizens "change their side", i.e. some time after a city has been captured it has still its city graphic from the former nation it belonged to:

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/captured-city-art-mod.443965/

    I tried to implement it into the last RaR version 2.7 but it never worked with CivCol. But I still like the idea of a slow change of the citizens to its new nation when a city has been captured. The city graphic could be bound to the culture.

    Maybe this is a small feature worth to think about.

    Regards

    Schmiddie
     
    Your_ardent_admirer likes this.
  2. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    I like the idea, but we should likely make our own implementation. The core concept is modding what CvCity::getArtStyleType() returns, which in itself is fairly simple. What it should trigger on (turn counter, culture, whatever else we can come up with) is the primary question.
     
  3. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    One of my favourites is still this little feature...:thumbsup::king:
     
  4. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I generally like it as well, although it is not necessary my "most wanted" of the list of planned features and thus currently not my priority.
    But since the concept is not that complex and the effort should be relatively small, I also see no reason why to not implement it. :thumbsup:

    @Nightinggale:
    Have you already taken a look at the relevant code and would be interested to implement it?
    I think we would do a big favour to Schmiddie to finally implement this. :)

    Why do we not use the same concept as in the mod comp?
    Changing the CityArtStyle according to the dominant Player Culture (e.g. on CityPlot) seems to be perfectly valid.

    Since the plot culture is already calculated by other functions I see no reason that such an implementation would impact performance.
    Since I have not checked it however, I am not sure if it would work, because conquering a City could automatically cause the dominant Player Culture to be the one of the conquering Player and thus the graphics would again switch instantly. :dunno:

    If a logic based on dominant Player Culture of CityPlot does not work, we could also implement a simple solution and e.g. switch CityArtStyle after X turns since being conquered (multiplied by GameSpeed).
    Players would most likely not notice the difference in triggers of switching CityArtStyle anyways.

    Summary:
    I think the technical solution is not the problem. We will find one that works and have an existing mod-comp to reuse and save some effort.
    The only question remaining: Who is volunteering to implement it?
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
  5. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Hi guys,

    we need to be really careful with this, if we just use "dominant Player Culture" as trigger for switching CityArtStyles. (Without really checking "being conquered".)
    We would need to explicitly exclude Native Villages (technically also Cities) from this logic or otherwise Native Villages might switch to European CityArtStyles (when Cultural pressure increases).

    In Civ4BTS this usually can not happen, since "Barbarians" are technically not really a Civ with Cities.
    In Civ4Col this is however very much possible.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
  6. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Prince Supporter

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    Purely historically - would that not make sense? The civilized nations e.g. the Cherokee did settle down and built houses and started farming imitating their white neighbours. The others packed up and moved further west...
     
  7. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Well for 95% of the players - including myself - it would look really crappy if a Native Village has the City Style of a Euroepan Colony ...
    We would have bug reports and complaints like hell ...
     
  8. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    correct, native villages should not be included! However, we could think about development of some natives, but this is another story.
     
  9. HobyMorgan

    HobyMorgan Chieftain

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    And what about implementing some sort of "cultural expansion/border blocker" like in DoaNE? I know, this mod has been named quite regularly lately, but it has some nice additions to Civ4Col.
    I have no clue how hard it is to implement this, but i do know this way you can prevent spreading your european culture to native settlements, preventing a change in city art for the native villages. Although, this might not solve the art change for colonial AI expansion, I'm afraid..
    Plus, this feature could also come quite in handy for other (the regular) strategical purposes!
    upload_2020-8-9_19-45-16.png
     
  10. Isabelxxx

    Isabelxxx DoaNE Explorer

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    My take
    • CityArtStyle changed according to the dominant Player Culture at conquest:
      • Natives unaffected by the feature. Native cities conquered would work as default (they become European).
      • Possibility to change art style of enemy city after conquering it if your culture was dominant previously.
      • Art style, and thematically city style, is enforced by the nation who controls the city more time.
    • CityArtStyle revised according to the dominant Player Culture changed X turns after new era.
      • Instead of rechecking art style every turn for dominant culture, only done a few times every game. Lightest implementation.
      • City style changes every new era, so thematically it makes sense the cultural style are also revised with it.
      • X could be zero (so it's done immediately with new era) or some random number so the change becomes random too.
      • On the last era, no city art style changes would be made (unless conquering them + dominant culture). It makes sense since cities would not change so drastically when fully developed.
      • If the conquest part becomes problematic (with instant changes when conquering/reconquering https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/captured-city-art-mod.656258/#post-15839563), this part would still make sense as a standalone feature.
        • Cities would only change with new eras and maintain their style on last era. Thematically perfect.
    This part should be easily coded. Simple and clean. Zero performance penalty, only checked when conquering and/or new era.

    Then some "addons", the city art style change after new eras could be given some flavor (instead of being just a graphic change).
    • [Cultural assimilation] (optional):
      • Related to Hapiness feature https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/happiness-implemented.654580/
      • - happiness when dominant culture != CityArtStyle
      • Own cities would always have a zero base happiness in that sense. And negative when your citizens live in a city built not according to their culture.
      • On late game, captured cities would always have a negative happiness handicap, since they will never change the city style (already on last era).
        • Not totally true, since you can (re)conquer a city in which you already had the dominant culture. But then that's the "exception" and it would work as intended, with your citizens being happy.
      • - Happiness could be era related. Later eras having more penalty (so it becomes worse to have a foreign city at last era than at the beginning of the game). Thematically makes sense, with culture attached more strongly as civs develop.
        • Don't know the numbers of your happiness feature so this is just speculation.
        • 1 angry face at 1st era.
        • 2 ... 2nd era.
        • 3 ... 3rd era.
        • etc.
      • It could become another patch to the late game problems and snowballing. Conquering would be less effective than using your own cities (stopping that strategy at late game). Numbers would need to be adjusted. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-late-game-problem-lack-of-challenge.661286/
      • Not too complex, easy to test, debug and integrate with the already implemented system.
      • If AI manages the happiness system, then this feature would just integrate into it as another negative effect. It could be linked to difficulty level too.

    • Events (along X turns not being zero) (optional):
      • Expand the feature [Cultural assimilation] with events decision instead of something done automatically after new era/+x turns.
      • [Cultural assimilation event] Choose whether to change the city architecture style (gold cost) or maintain it (happiness penalty).
        • Every (conquered) city would spawn this event, every new era (x random turn).
        • You could maintain the City Style from a city conquered some eras ago. But the happiness penalty would grow with every era! So the later you perform the change, the worse it gets. Gold cost should increase with every era too.
        • With every era you would have a opportunity to change every (conquered) city style. In other words, you could change a city style at a later era (if you decide to maintain it once).
        • The events becomes recursive, but the decision changes according to the gold cost and handicaps per era so it becomes interesting (even if it's the same event).
        • The feature becomes a decision instead of just something the player has to react to.
        • If AI manages the happiness feature, then this one would work the same with easy teaching: "if gold cost lower than some threshold evaluation for happiness penalty then convert city if gold is available". No complex calculations needed.
      • [Other events] The system could be expanded a lot more with flavor events related to culture... treating City Style as City Culture. Examples:
        • National event when you have % cities with different city style ("culture") than your country culture. Late game events https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-late-game-problem-lack-of-challenge.661286/
          • Suffer a national happiness penalty: directly related to the happiness system, in line with the expected gameplay and lore. Even this could be coded for the AI, to not over-expand over that % threshold unless the happiness penalty can be countered.
          • Revolution (foreign cities revolt and start civil war): Note this relates directly with the conquering strategy at last era., so it would become a plausible event if you engage that strategy actively. No rare and complicated events chain required. Again, it relates with the happiness system (foreign cities not happy = problems increase). Since the complain is the late game becomes dominated by the human player, no special AI checks needed here. You can let the AI have this event too, it would simply not trigger most times, the event is a counter for dominant civs not a random revolution for anyone. And in the rare situation the AI is dominating the world, even with the AI checks previously suggested, then... I think the civil war would be interesting.
          • Native cities don't count for these events according to the rules (so they don't provoke common revolutions/events on AI expansion).
          • etc.
        • Random event asking to gift a city with "foreign" culture to their original owner.
          • Better relation as result with the owner.
          • Denying the gift could provoke their king to support pirates/natives (X units appear near the city to attack you).
          • Event should target foreign cities which are close to the border and/or the weaker ones.
          • Mini late game challenge.
        • Etc.

    The [other events] part would be the one requiring more coding and testing, but even being the ideas a bit raw, I think they are pretty delimited within the already present features or the proposed one.

    The events are not totally random , in the sense that you know they have some probability to trigger if you conquer too many foreign cities... so it can be explained easily, be thematically right and integrated with the other systems.

    And the AI can be taught to react to it globally according to thresholds (not over-expanding conquering European cities too fast, which relates directly to AI conquering evaluation) and -locally- to happiness problems (converting cities if gold is available). It's at least doable, and the rules are somewhat simple as Ray loves. The late game needs challenge, that could be a possibility with some logic behind.

    Also note the "revolution event" only affects the dominant civ when they conquer too many foreign cities too fast, which translates into 3 key points: too fast = last era (you can assimilate culture in previous era slowly with gold), it doesn't become a problem for the AI if the AI is not the most powerful civ, and it can not happen to multiple civs at the same time.

    The second one is not trivial: since you need to have many foreign european cities under control, it becomes harder to apply that condition to multiple civs at the same time. The more possibilities you have of suffering a revolution, the less possibilities the rest will have. (Foreign) Cities are limited in number, and if you have them, then other player can not have them at the same time (unless you "war swap" your core cities with foreign cities)... so revolution probability becomes automatically balanced by player domination. It will not happen if civs don't over-expand, commonly it will not happen to multiple civs at the same time and it will only trigger on the most powerful civs (not being a "test your luck" event which randomly annoys everyone).
    Player A 10 cities. Player B 10 cities. Player C 10 cities. -> Player A 10 A cities + 5 B cities, Player B 5 Cities, Player C 10 cities. -> Player B will never have a revolution (losing side on war without conquered foreign cities) and player C has 5 less cities available to conquer (unless it's more powerful than A). Player A could have a revolution.
    Then
    Player A 15 cities (10A+5B). Player B 5 cities. Player C 10 cities. -> Player A 10, Player B 5 Cities, Player C 10 C cities + 5 B cities. -> Player C now becomes the most powerful player, but now it could have a revolution, while the rest are immune to that problem. So it gets "balanced" again.

    Only strange situation would be player losing their core cities and maintaining the foreign cities, lets say player A with 5 A cities and 5 B cities at the second example. Then revolution would be a reality, even not being the strongest player... but to me, it still makes sense. If you over-expand and then you loose your core cities while maintaining foreign cities... then you have done something wrong and still in a over-expanded situation.

    Btw, glad to see the team is still working on the mod after all these years! Playing again to Civ 4 and thought "hey what about col?"... lead me to the forums again :) Looking forward to trying the last version of the mod.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2020
  11. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Hi @Isabelxxx
    nice to hear from you again. :)

    Considering Captured City Art, it is not really a problem of "how" to implement.
    Currently our big problem is always simply "who" is going to implement.

    So if you want to give it a try, that would be nice. :thumbsup:

    Yes, let us keep things simple first. :yup:
    Later we can build up on that step by step.

    Otherwise things usually get unpredicatble and uncontrolable - thus start impacting effort, performance, stability, ... too much.
    Modding is more like a marathon - it is not a sprint race.

    Well yes, there are still a few of us left. :)

    I wish you a lot of fun trying out the latest version.
    I hope you will like it. :)

    By the way:

    Eras
    are hardly used in WTP for game play - very much unlike DoaNE. (But yes City Graphics change.)
    That is mostly due to the fact that we always wanted to have some kind of a "Tech System".

    Real "Player Cultures" (in terms of something like "Nationality" of Units) as a real feature with any gameplay effect,
    other than calculating the Plot Culture (for Plot Owner and City Borders calculated), also does not exist yet.

    But both Eras with meaningful gameplay effects and real "Player Cultures" ("Nationality") might be introduced. :think:
    If we find modders motivated to work on it ...
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2020

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