Carthage strategy

[aelf]

I saw some light discussion on this, but I want to dive deeper and get into the nuts and bolts and potential performance.

In my one Deity game as Carthage, I paired it with Xerxes KoK, which resulted in a very rich empire. I maxed out the settlement limit at 9 and set myself up for a strong Exploration Age, ready to convert my low-pop towns into cities for quick specialist placements.

However, in Ancient Age, the only legacy path I could complete was the economic one. With some warring, military is certainly possible. But how about science and culture? For science, I barely managed to research half the techs so codex slots weren't an issue yet. For culture, I guess there's no choice but the stack all wonders in one city, but there's also the issue of being able to research the civics needed. This is not to say that completing legacy paths is a must, but they're a reference for general performance. Basically, Carthage's science and culture output is mediocre at best due to being limited to one city.

I saw that using specialists has been floated as a strategy. I thought of this too. I just wonder if it makes enough of a difference. Sure, there is a strong argument for placing specialists as early as possible to maximise their benefit. Maybe this would be a significant boost early game? Should we prioritise specialists over, say, rural production tiles, and is there a good rule of thumb for it (e.g. a specialist is better than 1 extra production, but not 2)?

But I'm skeptical that it's enough to get to Mathematics quickly to unlock the real power of Antiquity specialists, since there's only one science building. Maybe some luck with suzeraining scientific and cultural IPs is needed too? To me, specialists seem to be more significant in Exploration Age.

What's your strategy for Carthage other than setting up for Exploration? And any particular approach for specialising towns?

 

[Isca Dumnoniorum]

Watching this thread with interest as it's also a nut I'm yet to crack. I haven't played Carthage since the cavalry fix went through but previously I rode on the coattails of the military. I enjoy Carthage's unique buildings and the cloning of its settlers and merchants and want to make it my go-to antiquity civ if I can work out its idiosyncracies.

 

[Krikkit1]

One thing to do is make sure the Palace is surrounded by quarters…each gives 1 sci 1 culture.

Another would be making sure your pantheon gives sci and/or culture since your altar can be in towns.

Finally, capturing cities with culture/science buildings can help. (with Xerxes KoK, most of those 9 should probably be captured)

 

[UWHabs]

I've had games where I haven't completed the legacy paths for whatever reasons (other than economic, that seems the easiest). Honestly, I would say the best bet is to get a few towns set up with as powerful Cothons as you can, get a lot of gold on the transition, and then hit the road hard converting those few towns to cities. You should also have big production in the capital, so you can probably do just as well if not better than other civs at getting like 4 commanders carrying over to the era, and packing them with units, ready to hit the ground running if you want.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I've only played Carthage as Augustus yet and the ability to buy Monuments in town centers is really strong.

Speaking about legacy paths, I believe Carthage could benefit from conquering, at least with libraries. I didn't check whether captured wonders still don't count (and don't know if it's a bug).

 

[evonannoredars]

Marble and/or elephants are ofc very useful for getting lots of wonders built fast. Great Stele is good to grab naturally, but yeah the problem with all wonders is unlocking them in time to build them. Emile Bell I rarely see the AI go for until late in the era, so you don't need to rush for that one as much (although it's effect could be useful). As has been mentioned, Augustus is very good paired with Carthage. Specialists help a lot, though of course it will take time to get to them. Dispersing IPs are very useful for culture/science boosts, pillaging culture/science will be handy too.

Otherwise, I'd recommend restarting a lot until you get good natural adjacency spots

 

[aelf]

Emile Bell I rarely see the AI go for until late in the era, so you don't need to rush for that one as much (although it's effect could be useful).

I do tend to get Emile Bell for the extra diplomatic point and ensure I get +50% towards befriending IPs for Exploration Age.

I'm mulling a run with Trung Trac, not just because she's one of my favourite leaders, but for the extra science to tropical cities and tropical start bias. Another possibility is Confucius for the extra science from specialists.

 

[chazzycat]

Potato McWhiskey's latest youtube series is a Carthage start, I'd recommend giving that a watch. He was playing as Simon Bolivar setting up an exploration military push as Bulgaria, so that's kind of a specific track, but I think he does a pretty good job of generally making the most of Carthage's abilities. I've been playing Carthage pretty heavily since they were released, and still picked up some new ideas from it. For example he actually used trade hub specialized towns to increase trade route range and leaned into that aspect heavily, getting a crazy number of trade routes up to set up for economic golden age in exploration.

 

[Menocchio]

With specialists, I think you probably shouldn't put them on science/culture buildings, at least not as a priority. Given that specialists add a base of +2 science/culture, if you were to put one specialist on a library/academy quarter with a +2 adjacency bonus, you'd be getting +4 science on each specialist, which is only +2 more than putting them anywhere else. The same goes for culture buildings, and given Carthage wants to feel the sea breeze on its capital, you probably won't get great adjacencies for those. It feels like the best move is to put specialists on your Cothons and your city center first and foremost: it's not hard to get a +4 adjacency on the Cothon, so +2 production for each specialist—a very rare yield. As @Krikkit1 points out, each quarter adjacent to the palace is a +1 science/culture adjacency, so you have a lot to gain by ignoring other buildings' adjacencies and surrounding your palace ASAP in a kind of... Round City, as it were.

...which is a great pivot to my favourite followup from Carthage, the Abbasids. With their first tradition all buildings get a science adjacency with the palace and city hall, which adds up very quickly. They also like a small core of tall cities with supportive towns, so they mesh well together.

For leaders, it feels really hard to beat Augustus for the cheaper town buildings, monuments (+1 influence!) and amphitheatres (which he gives additional yields to via an event), not to mention the production to the capital, but I think there are some strategies to be worked out with Scientist Himiko and Ibn Battuta. Getting something like the Science/Culture attribute starters with Battuta could be very handy, then progressing those to the specialist boosts on the left side of their trees, but then again that's something you could theoretically do with any leader. He also has the benefit of unlocking Abbasids by default so you don't have to go on some mad dash for camels...

 

[SammyKhalifa]

This probably would work all the time, but when I played Carthage I did a pretty extensive city-state strategy. My first CS I suzed was scientific, and I chose "Pilgrimage: Receive a free technology when you become Suzerain of a City-State, including this one." I don't know if it's the optimal move but it made me feel better about myself, kinda keeping up in tech. I normally wouldn't have chosen that so early, but seemed to make more sense for them.

 

[chazzycat]

...which is a great pivot to my favourite followup from Carthage, the Abbasids. With their first tradition all buildings get a science adjacency with the palace and city hall, which adds up very quickly. They also like a small core of tall cities with supportive towns, so they mesh well together.

Getting something like the Science/Culture attribute starters with Battuta could be very handy, then progressing those to the specialist boosts on the left side of their trees, but then again that's something you could theoretically do with any leader. He also has the benefit of unlocking Abbasids by default so you don't have to go on some mad dash for camels...

This is exactly what I was attempting when I got killed and inspired the "is AI tougher?" thread. It was going great other than the whole, getting killed part.

 

[Menocchio]

It definitely seems like keeping up a big, intimidating peacetime military is more important than before for dissuading wars, I've been caught out by that more than once! It makes me wonder, for Carthage specifically, how much the AI weighs land vs. sea power for when they decide a nasty war is a good idea, because even if their unique cavalry isn't cheap, they can keep up a huge navy without much cost—maintenance-free, even, with Isabella.

 

[Yzman]

I completed science with Carthage on sovereign. Wasn't too difficult. I think i used city states bonuses and diplomancy to help with science output.

 

[MutilationWave]

I'm almost through my first Carthage antiquity age on deity/fractal/standard size. As I was bragging in the other thread, Napoleon with the Romans had it bad for me from the start since I forward settled him quite viciously. He declared and I had the most fun I've had yet in 7 fighting that war.

I had so much production in the capital I could build warriors and slingers one turn each, enabling me to overcome his 33 power units with my 18 power ones. It was so exciting to capture Roma. There should really be something unique happen when you capture Rome as Carthage. At least an achievement or something, even though there weren't any elephants involved.

Anyway for an overview, Augustus is a great pick. It is difficult to keep up in science and culture even with monuments in your towns. I didn't get a single wonder despite amazing production in the capital. I can't wait to do this again.

I recommend staying two over settlement cap and trading for happiness resources (and camels of course). I made every town into a trading post. I didn't make use of the cavalry because they came at a bad time, but in retrospect I should have been making war instead of playing simcity. Also I used the construction to science project for the first time, and it can really help out when you run out of things to build. Speaking of that, since I built almost every building I could in Carthage, I couldn't afford the happiness for specialists. I'll definitely be playing differently next time.

I didn't do great other than that war at the very beginning. One last thing, one of the best moves I made was my very first one to move inland one hex from the coast to settle Carthage. This gives you more space for quarters and less food tiles.

Overall the most fun antiquity civ in my opinion.

 

[Kurtbob]

I played a game as Ashoka, World Renouncer and was surprised how everything is just easier when happiness isnt a factor. Considering Carthage's ability to quickly spread towns and conquer, having excess happiness seemed like a legit strategy...and it is. I crossed the city limit fairly early on and never had issues. The money coming in allowed me to buy buildings for all my towns triggering Ashokas happiness bonus from building adjacencies....I was litteraly buying happiness to continue my expansion.

 

[reddishrecue]

I used to think that Carthage was good at warmongering. Boy was I wrong. I had attacked Persia and had an upper advantage at the beginning but eventually I got out performed and double teamed. That's why I lost I guess because of the double team but I did take a town at first and it was glorious. However, as time passed, I became pathetic and lost another town where I eventually got out. Numidian Cavalry don't do that well against Persian immortals. Not only that, but there's also a risk of getting double teamed by the AI.

 

[Taefin]

I suzed a science and culture IP for the UI, and built them on every qualifying rural tile in 9 settlements. I got to almost 200 science and culture by the end of antiquity, but not enough to get 10 relics on standard.

I swear by +5 cothons as early as possible everywhere. The extra gold snowballs quickly. It requires contorting settle locations to ensure as many such cothons as possible. And a cothon plus a few production improvements makes for a viable exploration city.

I find this puzzle to be one of the most enjoyable options in antiquity. The most annoying part if many towns across coast tiles won’t connect to the capital for the purpose of food, despite them being in range and with no way to use merchants to build roads.

 

[aelf]

Potato McWhiskey's latest youtube series is a Carthage start, I'd recommend giving that a watch. He was playing as Simon Bolivar setting up an exploration military push as Bulgaria, so that's kind of a specific track, but I think he does a pretty good job of generally making the most of Carthage's abilities. I've been playing Carthage pretty heavily since they were released, and still picked up some new ideas from it. For example he actually used trade hub specialized towns to increase trade route range and leaned into that aspect heavily, getting a crazy number of trade routes up to set up for economic golden age in exploration.

Thanks. I haven't watched the whole thing, but I checked it briefly. His science output at the end of Antiquity is even worse than mine

I might go back to it and see if there are any insights I can take away, but I have already done this approach of just setting up for a strong Exploration Age. I'm also not sure of the value of using trade hubs except for the codex slots because getting enough resources for the economic legacy path seems easy enough without trade hubs.

With specialists, I think you probably shouldn't put them on science/culture buildings, at least not as a priority. Given that specialists add a base of +2 science/culture, if you were to put one specialist on a library/academy quarter with a +2 adjacency bonus, you'd be getting +4 science on each specialist, which is only +2 more than putting them anywhere else. The same goes for culture buildings, and given Carthage wants to feel the sea breeze on its capital, you probably won't get great adjacencies for those. It feels like the best move is to put specialists on your Cothons and your city center first and foremost: it's not hard to get a +4 adjacency on the Cothon, so +2 production for each specialist—a very rare yield. As @Krikkit1 points out, each quarter adjacent to the palace is a +1 science/culture adjacency, so you have a lot to gain by ignoring other buildings' adjacencies and surrounding your palace ASAP in a kind of... Round City, as it were.

I did put specialists in Punic Ports first. But you're right that the city center is a good one to prioritise next in Antiquity. I was still thinking in terms of Exploration Age and the science legacy path, but the city center offers good yields.

 

[MutilationWave]

I'm almost through my first Carthage antiquity age on deity/fractal/standard size. As I was bragging in the other thread, Napoleon with the Romans had it bad for me from the start since I forward settled him quite viciously. He declared and I had the most fun I've had yet in 7 fighting that war.

I had so much production in the capital I could build warriors and slingers one turn each, enabling me to overcome his 33 power units with my 18 power ones. It was so exciting to capture Roma. There should really be something unique happen when you capture Rome as Carthage. At least an achievement or something, even though there weren't any elephants involved.

Anyway for an overview, Augustus is a great pick. It is difficult to keep up in science and culture even with monuments in your towns. I didn't get a single wonder despite amazing production in the capital. I can't wait to do this again.

I recommend staying two over settlement cap and trading for happiness resources (and camels of course). I made every town into a trading post. I didn't make use of the cavalry because they came at a bad time, but in retrospect I should have been making war instead of playing simcity. Also I used the construction to science project for the first time, and it can really help out when you run out of things to build. Speaking of that, since I built almost every building I could in Carthage, I couldn't afford the happiness for specialists. I'll definitely be playing differently next time.

I didn't do great other than that war at the very beginning. One last thing, one of the best moves I made was my very first one to move inland one hex from the coast to settle Carthage. This gives you more space for quarters and less food tiles.

Overall the most fun antiquity civ in my opinion.

So I finally finished antiquity with 12/8 settlements! Never got a wonder, missed the second science point by one turn. Full military and economic paths done. 179 turns, wow. I do have longer ages turned on but I've never had one close to this many turns.

I'm changing my mind about Augustus being so great for Carthage. I'm sure I'd do better on another try with him but I'm definitely going Ashoka WR next time, like the poster above mentioned. Happiness and gold were terrible even though I had a trader in almost every settlement and city state. This is why I had to make every town into a trade town as OP asked about. Of course I got happiness crisis. I have had it every time except my very first age transition. Ended up with six camels and five commanders though!

I couldn't even afford to buy all the UIs I had available and I didn't get the UQ in four of the settlements.

Carthage, the city, is a monster at 31 pop and almost 100 hammers. I can't wait to see how it does in exploration. I guess I'll be ignoring economic path because I don't think I can keep going with more settlements.

 

[Taefin]

I guess I'll be ignoring economic path because I don't think I can keep going with more settlements.

Sounds like a Mongolia game, just get 35 happiness and conquer the world!