Carthage terrible?

InFlux5

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So as far as I can tell, the free harbors do not immediately provide a city connection to the capital. I haven't played it out until Compass but I assume they will provide a connection once Compass is discovered.

Is it just me or is Carthage terrible? By the time you get Compass most cities will already have roads to them. And the rest of their UA is pretty underwhelming too. Seems like all you're really looking at is a free connection for the odd overseas city.
 
So as far as I can tell, the free harbors do not immediately provide a city connection to the capital. I haven't played it out until Compass but I assume they will provide a connection once Compass is discovered.

Is it just me or is Carthage terrible? By the time you get Compass most cities will already have roads to them. And the rest of their UA is pretty underwhelming too. Seems like all you're really looking at is a free connection for the odd overseas city.

The Wheel, but you also have to have a direct path between cities. if there's fog of war a connection will not be made.

They're good for gold because you can skip Roads and save money on Roads/Railroads (albeit you would be slower navigating).
 
I guess they're better on island maps, where your cities would be hammer-starved anyway because of terrain, so having an instant, free harbor when you'd want to build harbors anyway is a nice bonus.
 
Really? I once had 2 carthage cities on the same coast and they connected to each other perfectly way before any important sailing technologies. I hope the latest patch didn't make the ua work.
 
Regarding the city connection/trade route dilemma, city connections are established 1 turn after founding cities provided they have the wheel.

As far as Carthage being terrible, it's hard to argue that they're one of the better civs, or that they could hold a candle against the likes of Poland, Maya, Babylon, Korea, Aztec, etc. However, they are not one of the "trade-off" civs (Iroquois, Venice) where the bonuses they receive come at a cost. As such, all the universally-applicable strategies work just fine with them, and their bonus is that city connections are automatically established, leading to a few extra GPT, harbors have no maintenance which is worth 3GPT per city in saved maintenance, you can get by with fewer workers as roads are not needed for the purpose of connecting cities. They also have a bottom tier UU (AFEs) and a 3rd tier UU (quins). Even on water maps, trireme rushes aren't effective at conquering capitals, but as they are 25% stronger than warriors and have immediate access to a city-raider promotion, they can be effective at taking size 1-3 secondary cities, like the expansion troll the AI frequently plops down to block one of your city spots, and quinqueremes are 30% better at that. Furthermore, triremes are the only vessel out there until the AI gets to compass, which does take a while, meaning that carthage does have a 30% power advantage over everything out there for that window. So no, overall they aren't that great, but I wouldn't say terrible.
 
English are insane for both crossbow warfare (3 range) and Frigate warfare (like a 25-30% better Frigate). They also get two spies immediately which means you can either steal twice as fast when you enter the Ren Era or steal AND defend.

They're quite good in general.
 
Are the english considered any good?
Opinions may vary, but I found England to be just above average when I was playing middle difficulty levels but one of the top five civs in the game at emperor/deity levels, more so on water maps but England is one of the naval-bonus civs that fares pretty well on land.

The big difference on higher levels is unparalleled research and nearly impregnable defenses. The extra spy is available as soon as any civ enters the renaissance, which at lower levels means when YOU enter the renaissance but on deity could mean when you're just a few turns into the medieval era. from there, you get 2 free techs every 8-20 turns in addition to your own research; at deity, espionage usually accounts for 1/4 to 1/2 of your overall research and England's is effectively doubled until they reach industrial. On the defensive front, deity AI's will often zerg-rush you after they start getting workshops up and England is one of the best at nullifying this - since they always have a coastal capital they can keep one or two SotL's at port and when combined with the extra range of Longbows, they can take those zerg-rushes and pretty simply convert it into XP farming, leading to some crazy effective units later like range4 battleships that fire twice and machine guns with range2 and two attacks.
 
Hello Fellow Civ Fans:

From reading all these posts I never see Carthage as a Civ to play. I select Carthage because of the free Harbors and then focus on trade routes. I typically play on Archipelago maps and have all 4 coastal cities. I shoot to get the Colossus to grant me an extra cargo ship. Try to max out on 8-10 cargo ships if possible.

It seems no one else uses this approach.

Brew God
 
When I play Carthage I focus on Cargo Ships and Trade Routes. Build the Colossus and get an extra Cargo Ship. Try to get 8-10 trade routes and have your gpt up in the few hundreds. Free Harbors is great. Don't know why others don't go for this more often. I see Carthage as a great early economic boost.

Most players must disagree since I never see anyone discussing them much.

Brew God
 
The other UA is quite fun, you can build roads over mountains and surprise the enemy. But it's very situational.
 
The problem starts with Archipelago maps: sure, it's fun to go island hopping, but Archipelago maps are generally a worse experience in Civ5 than most other map types. Unlike land warfare, naval warfare is not really an option for most Civs until Navigation; maybe you can get something interesting going with Galleases if have nearby opponents, but otherwise this means that you'll pretty much have no way to take anyone's cities until Renaissance. Next, naval warfare in general is a lot faster and frankly, a lot more boring than land warfare until subs and carriers become available: thanks to no defensive terrain in ocean, no ships that can move after attacking, and no healing in non-friendly territory without a special promotion, naval melee units are pretty much useless for anything other than capturing cities (and capturing almost-dead ships as Privateers). In addition, the high base movement speed for ships (5, as opposed to 2 for land units) coupled with the fact that ships cannot get any defensive bonuses from either terrain or promotions means that the person who attacks first with their ranged ships will have a huge upper hand, even more so than first move ranged attacks on land. Naval warfare in Civ5 is like being forced to fight all your wars with Crossbowmen until Modern Era, including any Classical Era wars. This also ties into my next point quite well, in that as a result of certain naval units having such a dominant role, civs whose UU's replace those dominant units end up being so incredibly overpowered that it's just not funny (England). Great Admirals are much less useful than Great Generals because Great Admirals have 3 less movement speed than the average naval unit, so by the time they catch up to your navy fighting a fight, the outcome will have already been decided, making your Great Admiral irrelevant. Finally, water tiles in Civ5 have a much lower average yield than land tiles, so games played on maps with primary water tiles will tend to be much slower due to the lower yields your cities will be generating.
And let's not even mention the absolutely terrible naval AI.

Now let's get to Carthage itself. Free harbors are a nice UA, but they really pennies compared to the bonuses other civs might get on archipelago maps, be it instant, free luxuries (Indonesia), land units that don't instantly end their turn after embarking or disembarking (Denmark), or a +2 movement boost to all naval units (England). Even certain civs who aren't specifically naval, eg. Poland, Egypt, Japan, could be considered to have a better UA for naval maps than Carthage's free Harbors. If we start taking UU's and UB's into account, Carthage is beat as well. Carthage's only other naval boost is their Trireme UU, which is absolutely terrible: +3 strength is useless when it's only on a melee ship that has less utility than a Spearman (costs more hammers, has less strength, can't use to clear barb camps or to defend settlers from being captured by land barbarians, can't use to defend vital tiles because of no defensive bonuses). By contrast, Byzantine's Trireme UU is actually useful because it's like a naval Chariot Archer, so it can actually be used to swarm and take cities, and that's before you consider that Byzantines' bonus belief can also be used to get beliefs that are more advantageous on naval maps than the free harbors. England's Ship-of-the-Lines are monsters, as they can only really be countered by submarines. Even Venice's lowly Great Galleases, which only differ by a measly +2 melee strength and +3 ranged strength compared to Galleases, have more utility than Quinqueremes simply because Galleases are ranged naval units, while Quinqueremes are not.
Basically, Carthage is not the worst civ for naval maps, but there are still so many better options, including some who are just as good on naval maps as they are on land-based maps (eg. Poland, Egypt, Maya, Byzantines, England).

Now let's get to your actual strategy.
Free harbors are pennies when you're going Tradition: because they are not food, hammer, culture, or science buildings, they are worth the most when you have a lot of cities that need Harbors. You'll get a lot more use out of free harbors if you have 8-10 cities: the less gold from city connections will be made up for by not having to pay that 3 gold maintenance, and not having to spend 120 hammers on harbors means a lot more when your cities wouldn't have the hammers to build them anyway. Plus, naval maps tend to be lower on food anyway thanks to not having as much farmland, so you probably won't be able to get your Tradition to as high of a population as you want anyway (unless you're Aztec because Floating Gardens).

Since trade routes are player-capped in Civ5, there's not much use building harbors for the trade route gold in more than one city, so free harbors are needed only for the city connections and Seaports after Navigation. Colossus is a good wonder regardless of Harbors: that +1 trade route is incredibly useful.
 
Do workers working on mountains take damage? How does that work?
They do, so you need pairs of two (with liberty/pyramids) or three. The first worker puts a turn into a road, and loses 50hp, so the next turn you need to take him out, or you would lose him, the second worker comes and finishes the job and also loses 50hp (assuming liberty/pyramids). You can keep them at 50hp for the rest of the game, it does not matter, they work at the same rate.

Moderator Action: Quote added in preparation of thread merge.
 
Moderator Action: Two "Carthage terrible" threads merged
 
Here's a thread I started a few years ago about Carthage, which somehow became the go-to link for strategy about it (I was blown away when I found it linked multiple other places later)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=467888

The gist is that you want The Wheel. You want to take Liberty all the way down. You want the Messenger of the Gods Pantheon. Carthage goes broad down every patch of coast it can find. The elephants are... meh. The Q-remes are great, but it's not like naval AI is any good anyway. The Mountain thing is marginal at best. Carthage's identity is all about coastal REX.
 
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