Carthage

Funak

Deity
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
9,127
First of all, Carthage is one of the civs I'm completely confused about, I'm honestly not sure if they are fine as they are or if they need to be rebuilt from scratch. So instead of actual suggestions I'm just going to analyze the civ. Feel free to comment.


Ports get a free Harbor, and units may cross mountains.

A fine UA, saves you some gold on maintenance and roads, also saves you having to research compass early on if you're on a waterbased map, it also saves you the hammers/gold cost for building the harbor. Crossing mountains is really random, weird and kinda irrelevant.

Starts with a Bireme and a Warrior.

Pretty damn powerful, probably too powerful.

Unique Unit: African Forest Elephant. - stronger horseman, slower, fear promotion

Really never cared much for this unit, would have preferred a reworked quinireme even if I always found that unit useless aswell

Unique Building: Cothon - lighthouse provides a unique luxury that can be traded (Tyrian Purple)

This thing is a problem, a major problem to be honest. For people who haven't actually played CEP I'll explain, the Cothon is a lighthouse-replacement with a 4 gold maintenance(instead of 1) that provides you with 1 copy of the unique luxuary, Tyrian Purple. Because of that this is one of the strongest unique buildings in the game, right up until you have more cities needing lighthouses than you have AIs to trade with, which depending on mapsize can happen rather quickly. And at that point you're stuck with a UB that you're forced to build which provides you with -3Gold/turn
 
So your issue with the Cothon isn't the free luxury, but the upkeep? Well, that's just a balance issue. After all, the upkeep was introduced to combat the huge gold mass you get by selling your tyrian purple...

Just move around the numbers. And yes, scratch the warrior. Starting with a bireme is nice enough ;)
 
So your issue with the Cothon isn't the free luxury, but the upkeep? Well, that's just a balance issue. After all, the upkeep was introduced to combat the huge gold mass you get by selling your tyrian purple...

Just move around the numbers. And yes, scratch the warrior. Starting with a bireme is nice enough ;)

Biremes aren't getting ported from what I've heard (yes I'm actually heartbroken about this, I loved the bireme) so it'd have to be a trireme/quinireme start or a warriorstart, hard choice tbh.

My problem with the Cothon is the idea of how its usefulness is totally dependant on mapsize and if people actually like you :D

I'm totally fine with completely scratching the cothon(or just the tyrian purple, because I like the idea of a UB lighthouse or harbor) and figuring out something new, but I'm kinda dry on ideas atm.
 
I have a fondness for the elephant, it feels wrong to have Carthage without elephants. It's even the civilization's symbol! ;)

Since the mountain crossing and naval focus really mean Carthage is about mobility, it could be possible to let the Cothon increase the range of trade routes (even land ones)? That sounds much more useful, the CEP ability feels like hold-over from pre-BNW days.

Since this might be too weak, add in bonus XP for ships?

It still sounds "confused", but at least it gives a strong incentive for a naval play style.
 
I have a fondness for the elephant, it feels wrong to have Carthage without elephants. It's even the civilization's symbol! ;)

Since the mountain crossing and naval focus really mean Carthage is about mobility, it could be possible to let the Cothon increase the range of trade routes (even land ones)? That sounds much more useful, the CEP ability feels like hold-over from pre-BNW days.

Since this might be too weak, add in bonus XP for ships?

It still sounds "confused", but at least it gives a strong incentive for a naval play style.

I think you just gave Carthage the new Netherlands UB and England UA :D

Honestly I'm not really sure why Carthage is so military focused in Civ, I mean historically they were a trading superpower which is the reason they had to fight the romans, I think :D. Anyways I think they are fine as a strong infrastructure civ which is kinda what CEP tried to make them into with the Cothon, I'm just trying to find a better way to do that.

I think we both agree that two UUs just doesn't cut it and my thoughts behind keeping the Quinquereme instead of the elephant is because there are already so many mounted UAs and so many elephants that it doesn't really feel special enough. And while the basegame Quinquereme is terrible, this is the place were we can fix it. Something like giving it a free unique movement/sight bonus and letting it start with some other promotions. Something that carries over on upgrade so you're reaping the benefits of stronger meleeships all game.
And while I agree on the elephants being iconic I think their naval power is more iconic. But if enough people disagree with me I'll fold :D
 
Naval power definitely more important. Carthage was winning wars with money, since they had insane economy. They ruled the seas through trade and strong fleet, but they never really developed a strong land army - here they were counting on mercenaries... Which they were paying thanks to strong economy.

But I'd leave the possibility of crossing mountains alone. Hannibal would approve of this, it's not gamebreaking and it is unique. ;)
 
Ok, so here's the discussion I had with Funak in the thread about the new patch. Decided to copy paste it here.

Shalvan said:
I just played as Dido with the new release (my first contact with CBP, and since I am a Carthage fanboy, I am mainly concerned about them xD).

I was very surprised when after founding Carthage I didnt see the free harbor. I searched the subforum and only found one guy saying that he liked that he didn't have harbors immediately - well, I don't feel it is a good change. Overall harbors were known in antiquity and it is very unintuitive and unhistorical to have Carthage gain it's UA in medieval era after researching compass. I didn't find any explanation for this change on this forum - why nerf Carthage in this way? To make isolation unhappiness have some impact?

The other thing is the Quinquereme - which is a poor UU, but it is even weaker in CBP I feel. In vanilla trireme has 10 strength, quinquereme 13, a good deal more. In CBP I was astonished when I opened civilopedia and saw the value of 15 strength on trireme page, while quinquereme has 13 listed. In combat it turned out that trireme has 12 strength, so I'd consider buffing quinquereme to 15.

There is a mod out there "Carthage Improved". It isn't perfect, but I think it got quinqueremes right, giving them the possibility to move after attacking. With this they can actually take a city in reasonable time, attacking and moving away to make room for another ship to strike. This mod also gives Carthage a big bonus to naval unit production and playing with it I was able to conquer Russia with a quick rush (two cities).

On the other hand, it was said that Carthage was more focused on trade and economy than on war. Perhaps giving them a UB would be a way to reflect that - but free harbors are sort of an UB (Harbor costing 0, with 0 maintenance, available at agriculture ^^ ). But still it did wage war with north african tribes and it conquered much of Iberia, and Hannibal taught Romans what it means to fear, so the military aspect shouldn't be completely overlooked.

In CEP Cothon is a unique Lighthouse, not Harbor, and it has huge maintenance cost - because it creates a luxury out of thin air So the first one gives +4 happiness - awesome. The second one lets you trade it for gold or other luxuries, still great. But depending on the map size and the number of players you will get to the point where consecutive cothons with be detriments rather than boons.

Funak said:
I totally agree with you, I was extremely confused when I saw how late you got the harbor normally and figured it was meant as a buff to Carthage but after reading this I just lost it. I can see the point of having harbors 3 eras before everyone else being way too strong but atm all the UA does is save you some hammers and some maintenance, which is complete garbage.

I have two possible ideas for fixing this, and I'm mentioning them here instead of the leader balance thread because I'm an idiot.

1. Make Carhages UA unlock at optics or sailing instead. It will force you to invest some science into going the right direction while still having a UA that is actually useful.

2. Completely remake the UA into something else and switch the elephant UU for a UB harbor that is available at optics or a UB lighthouse that links cities. Best part is that either of those UBs could be called a Cothon


And about the quinquereme, I completely agree about it needing a buff, no idea why it would have lower combatstrength than the ship it replaces, just makes no sense (I'm looking at you, Slinger!). I however don't agree on your solutions for it, mostly because the AI is terrible att handling move after attacking which would make this UU way better for players (and we should probably avoid that).
My suggestion instead would be to give it some kind of powerful unique promotion that sticks on upgrading.
Some ideas would be:
Extra sight and movement
Being able to cross oceantiles(no idea why that would make sense historyvise however )
Prizeships(Also not sure why that would make sense)
A huge cs bonus when attacking(specific target? cities? other boats?)
Selfrepair/Faster repair
That Impi unique where you do a ranged attack before attacking
Earning promotions faster
Earning admirals faster (no idea why but whatever)
Probably something else that I failed to think about.

Comes down to what you want to Quinquereme to be able to do really I think early rushing cripples you for the rest of the game so I'm probably biased towards exploring.


About a UB, as I've mentioned before I'd have no problems replacing the elephant, I really dislike that unit to be honest, we already have tons of mounted UUs and tons of elephant UUs. If we don't go with the remade UA verson I suggested over I would suggest replacing the elephant with a UB anyways, still a Cothon, but giving it some other effect (obviously).
I don't like the CEP Cothon for the same reasons you mentioned earlier, it is either way too strong or worse than a normal lighhouse depending on your situation.
But coming up with buildings I'm really drawing a blank, something based around trade would be nice since that really was Carthages main thing.

Shalvan said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_...f_the_Americas


I like the idea of unique harbors unlocked at optics. JFD in his Hannibal mod has given Carthage a Cothon which adds gold yield to sea resources and makes ships stationing inside the city increase the city's combat strength just like a land unit does. Other mod adds Breakwaters as harbor replacement which adds +1 production to all sea tiles (kinda like Dutch dike in Civ 4). Cothon was both a trade and a military port, so both naval unit production and naval unit XP are worth considering.

What about UA though? In JFD's mod Dido claims all water tiles in 3 tiles radius from the city and creates a sea luxury resource (in every city). It's interesting, but I am not the greatest fan of this solution.

Funak said:
Could also add gold to watertiles, like the cothon in civ4. The UA issue remains however, unless you make the Cothon a lighthouse(which makes somewhat less sense imho) and keep the old UA(but makes it give you free harbors at a more reasonable tech)

Also, we should probably go back to the Leaders discussion forum instead We are taking up space with something that isn't directly patchrelated.

Okay. Now to the point. The UB you mentioned belongs to Portugal, not Carthage. It's Feitoria which I believe was a Customs House replacement. It is pretty good. Carthaginian Cothon in Civ 4 was a unique Harbor (unlocked at optics I believe, like any other harbor) which was adding an additional trade route to the city it was built in. It was very good, especially on water maps. You would most often want open borders with everyone and get huge commerce from trade.

Overall even as is BNW Carthage is considered weak as a civ (not sure whether GNK version with sea resource production on harbors was better), as both UU's are not stellar to say the least and UA gives a mediocre bonus - as it is unique for only about 80 to 120 turns (approximately, never paid attention to when I actually research compass - depends on the map probably. As Carthage I didn't prioritize it as harbors were free anyway and gold from Fishing boats, while good, required you to build fishing boats, and fish were often good enough at 4f1p, so improving them with fishing boats was not the highest priority - I hate the way it works now and I would make work boats be like workers...)

Let's look what various modders did to alter how Carthage works:

JFD's The Republic of Carthage said:
Hannibal - The Republic of Carthage

The Hundred and Four:
During peacetime, Military Units increase :c5production: Production when garrisoned. Units may cross mountains after the first Shophet is earned, taking 50 HP damage if they end a turn on a mountain.

African Forest Elephant: The African Forest Elephant is a Carthaginian unique unit, replacing the Horseman. The Carthaginian Elephants are slower but more powerful than the Horseman. They can move after attacking. They also strike fear into nearby enemy units, giving them all a negative combat modifier. Success in combat with an Elephant has an increased chance of generating Great Generals.

Shophet: The Shophet is the unique Great General replacement for Carthage, for Hannibal. This unit causes enemy cities to take extra damage when it is within two tiles. The closer the Shophet is to the city, the more damage the city takes. It also causes all friendly units in the same tile or adjacent to heal 20 damage after defeating an enemy. In addition, whenever this unit embarks into water tiles, it becomes a Great Admiral. It returns to Great General status upon disembarking. Use a Shophet to supplement your military strategies when waging war against other civilizations.

Dido - The Kingdom of Carthage

Phoenician Heritage:
Coastal cities claim all workable water tiles when founded and begin with a nearby source of the unique luxury resource Shellfish, which only Carthage may see and improve.

Quinquereme: Only Dido's Carthage may build this unit. It is a stronger version of the Trireme when in friendly territory and ignores enemy Zone of Control. Like the Trireme it is a melee attack unit, engaging units at sea or cities (but it has no ranged attack).

Cothon: The Cothon is Dido's unique building, replacing the Harbour. In addition to its regular abilities, the Cothon may be unlocked at the discovery of Optics. It also increases the Gold output of Sea Resources worked by the city and increases the Defense of the city when a naval unit is stationed in it. Cities with a Cothon should make for impenetrable centres of commerce and growth, giving you early advantages in securing lucrative trade.

Moo Zedong's Carthage Improved said:
Makes Carthage more powerful, interesting, and historically accurate. Compatible with GK and BNW
---!2.0 Update!---
The mod as it is now:

UA: Each coastal city has a free harbor. Recieve 100 gold upon founding a coastal city. Builds naval units 33% faster.
UU: African Forest Elephant (costs 100p 200f) 14 strength 3 movement
-The difference: It now has a bonus vs mounted (50), because elephants terrify horses, and no penalty when attacking cities. However, it cannot move after attacking.
It retains the original promotions also (ie. Great Generals II and Feared Elephant)
UU: Quinquereme (45p) 13 strength and 5 movement
-The difference: +1 movement and can move after attacking (quinqueremes are faster than triemes).

SushiSquid's Carthage Breakwater said:
Gives Carthage a unique building, the Breakwater. This replaces the Harbor, and is thus free in all coastal cities as normal for Carthage. To make room for a unique building, the African Forest Elephant is removed.

A Breakwater forms city connections and increases range and gold for sea trade routes just like a Harbor, but it also adds extra Production for working sea tiles.

Lincoln_lyf's Super Power Balance just adds +1 production from pastures to Carthage's UA. I suppose that historically it is connected to the Tyrian Purple, but I think it is bland and boring. And not seafaring at all xD (Well, maybe there should be something more generally useful and we shouldn't go bananas on maritime power?)
Other than that this mod makes harbors give +1 gold to all coastal tiles, and introduces more starting techs (so some civs start with agriculture, some with fishery, and some with hunting). Quinquereme and Elephants have increased strength, but this mod overhauls combat, so Quinquereme has just +1 combat strength over trireme, but also has +1 movement and can move after attacking.

Barathor's "Galleys for Civs" mod makes Galleys ranged units again and lets them be built by civilizations. It also moves Triremes from sailing to optics and gives them 12 strength. It indicates a needed buff for Quinqueremes, which get 15 strength and get +1 to movement promotion.

TofuSojo's "Techtree overhaul" makes quinquereme available to all civilizations and gives Carthage a unique Harbor - Cothon. UA gets changed to free lighthouses, Cothon is available at Compass and gives +30% naval unit production and +1 production from sea resources. While the building is nice, I don't like the UA change. And it's still a bit bland. The problem is that that way the city connections over water are still delayed to late medieval, which is bad (I think it should be possible to get connections in classical for all civs). The art is really nice though. :)

FramedArchitecture's "Unique Building Collection" and "Unique Trait Collection":
The first adds a Cothon (another great art), which provides Supply promotion to naval units produced in the city and generates 2 culture once Compass is researched. The trait change:
FramedArchitecture said:
Dido: (Trade Rule) Cities founded on coasts receive a free Harbor and claim nearby resources. Each traded resource type generates 2 Gold per Turn.

Whoward said:
Cistern
Replaces the Carthaginian Quinquereme unique unit with the Cistern unique building.

The Cistern replaces the Aqueduct, keeping the 40% carried over food and acts as a source of fresh water to all surrounding tiles
Seems very weak to me.

I also remember jake.conde's Minimalist Mod which in its first version gave Carthage +1 production on fishing boats, and in the second version, where it moved this production to Exploration, Quinquereme was supposed to be able to build fishing boats by itself - didn't work though and the author deleted this feature.

And... that would be all mods affecting Carthage that I remember. I like the Breakwater, the FramedArchitecture's Cothon, JFD's UA... But it's hard for me to speak of balance. All of them seem weak in comparison to Maya, Babylon, Poland etc. xD
 
I feel like +1 gold from watertiles would make more sense than +1hammer. Not really sure how you would find production out on the open sea. Also Carthage should imo be tradefocused, and gold makes more sense for that. I think in base, coastiles gives 2food(+1 with lighthouse) and workable 3food 1 gold tiles aren't great, but they work. Oceantiles however only have 1 food base and will remain useless.
I think the easiest way to fix this is by replacing the elephant with the above mentioned building as a unique lighthouse and changing the base UA so that it start working at optics instead of compass.

But that still leaves the quinquereme. Any suggestions?
 
That still nerfs Carthage's UA compared to the vanilla game. While I agree that harbors 4000 BC don't make sense, I would give them Harbors at Sailing, or make the UB lighthouse unlock at Sailing, so that the bonuses aren't that stockpiled on one tech, but still flow well together.

Carthage was also expansionistic and militaristic. Their army was focused on mercenary troops (so a bonus for rushbuying could be introduced), and they established many colonies along the coasts of the Mediterranean. Still, the more faraway colonies were dependant on the capital, but were largely autonomous (as opposed to Rome, where the empire had more consolidated structure), the Barcids pretty much had their own country in Iberia. Maybe let Quinqueremes create a puppet colony? And the UB could provide additional trade route if it is inside a puppet city, so that there is an incentive to have puppets. Of course rushbuying in puppets could still be needed. If you would annex such a puppet it would enter resistance and you'd lose the trade route slot (so the cargo ship would disappear after finishing? Or just wouldn't be able to do another mission).

The problem is that quinqueremes should be much more expensive then and should disappear after settling. And then there would be no settling puppets after they become obsolete, so it could be the unique promotion from Cothon or part of the UA.

As for the military, the supply promotion on ships could be quite good, but not insane like march on caroleans (Navy cannot get march, right?).

Gold on water tiles just seems too weak to me. If not production on water tiles (which would probably just replace production on sea resources, not be on top of that), then maybe flat production for a city? Production for naval units would also make sense, and I like Cothon increasing city defense when a naval unit is inside. Of course it cannot do it all, so it is hard to decide.

Crap, those things would require a lot of coding. Anyway, to sum this up:

Phoenician Heritage
All coastal cities gain free harbors once Sailing (Optics) is researched. Naval melee units can found puppeted cities for :c5gold: gold on coastal tiles, which consumes the unit. Puppets enter resistance when annexed. May purchase in puppeted cities.

Cothon
Carthaginian unique replacement for Lighthouse. Provides an additional trade route if built in the capital or in a puppeted city. +1 :c5food: on sea tiles worked by the city. +1 :c5production: on sea resources in the city range. +1 :c5food: from Fish. (Available at Sailing)

Quinquereme
Carthaginian unique replacement for Trireme. Quinquereme has higher :c5strength: combat strength and is especially strong when defending Carthage's borders and trade routes.

I would take the Merchant Waters (+20% in friendly territory) promotion JFD coded and add it to Quinquereme. If it would be possible to code "within range of a trade route" or "on a trade route" it would be very flavorful (well, the game somehow handles autoplundering a trade route when it collides with enemy unit so I think it could be done.). I am not sure if the additional combat strength is needed, but it could be swapped for movement promotion or ignoring zone of control.

Now tell me how OP is the UA combined with the building xD Venice gets a total of 10 bonus trade routes, more with Petra and Colossus. That would take ten to twelve puppets for Carthage (gained either through settling or conquest). In this case land is power for Carthage, but I avoided giving them bonus to conquering, and the bonus would only be present in coastal puppets.

Eh, the AI would be terrible at playing this civ, wouldn't it?
 
Eh, the AI would be terrible at playing this civ, wouldn't it?

Yeah :D

Honestly the UA is just way too strong. Comparing it to venice, which is easy, you can still build settlers, you don't need a great merchant to build new cities, and you're actually allowed to pick the location for them and you get free harbors aswell.

I still think gold on seatiles is a better solution, gold is a lot more powerful now than it was in vanilla and imo the standard coasttile shouldn't be better than your standard grassland tile. 3 food 1 gold on the tiles would mean you're still growing your city but you're raking in some extra gold along the way. But clearly you're giving up production to do so.

If you don't like the idea of everything unlocking at the same tech we could easily move the cothon anywhere else, Commerce would make sense for example, don't have a techtree in front of me, but the Cothon had many uses, you can probably figure out someplace to place it.
I would advice against moving the UA to sailing however, optics seems fine, you're not really suffering from any major isolationpenalties by that point and you still get it way earlier than everyone else.

The Quinquereme however, it really depends on what we want to do with it. I would personally suggest keeping it at the base trireme strength and giving it superior scoutingabilities(plus 2 move and 2 sightrange?) and having it unlock at sailing(like it is at the moment). That would mean you could pick up a few early quinquereme and use them to scout the map out, find tradingpartners and good coastal locations for settling.

Another idea would be just making them a warmonger powerhouse, but I'm not a huge fan of that.
 
I'm also not a huge fan of that. They should be allowed to become a warmongering powerhouse through economic strength though. (just realized you meant Quinqueremes. I like +2 sight +2 movement -> as promotion or just a bonus to the unit? If they are to be great scouting tool, maybe allow them to enter ocean at compass? Or supply so that they could survive in distant lands?)

How does the unhappiness actually work? I don't really understand that in CBP. Small unhappiness doesn't really hurt the empire all that much, from what I've seen, so I am not sure if that would be a lever which wouldn't allow Carthage to go crazy. Notice that you have to expand and expand a lot to really make use of this UA. 10 puppets (break even with Venice)? Where would you find place for that, especially at higher difficulties? Only one tile islands might be left. And it could still be balanced with pricing. Losing a ship and paying 300/400/500 gold is not a small amount. The price could rise with each consecutive city, and perhaps should rise with era. Cothon itself would cost 400 (or more) to purchase in a city and I wouldn't count on autogovernor to build it quickly (unless the building flavor would be changed). Venice has 4 trade routes with just sailing and animal husbandry, getting 2 more with each trade tech. Carthage won't get two bonus TRs by the time it gets optics because first, it'd need to research sailing, second, build two quinqueremes, third, pay for the colonies (lets say 700 gold, 300 and 400, even though at first I was thinking of starting at 200 gold cost at first), fourth, pay for the Cothon (800 gold at least). Putting a significant gold burden here is a way to balance the UA. Venice also gets a city state with all of its units, buildings, population, land and improvements. Carthage would have to start the city from scrap.

Honestly I would even consider ditching the free harbors for that (though it became sort of a trademark of Dido). I don't think depriving them of settlers is an option here because then it would mean no cities whatsoever if landlocked, and starting inland can happen. I feel the UA fits really well here, as you'd get the city of Carthage with the core part of the empire (a couple cities, which historically were in modern Tunisia and west part of Sicily) and large puppet portion (all the trade colonies along the coasts of the western Mediterranean). And you'd have a reason to expand along the coasts to boost the trade of the empire (the trade route could be easily flavored as expanding their markets by trading with the locals). Allowing purchase in puppets is just to make it playable and it still fits due to Carthage's historical mercenary army (to the point where I would consider giving them a penalty on producing land units - Carthage never really had large citizen army). And the fleet utilized for expansion - that's how they expanded historically, and how Carthage itself was founded.
Even their navy's main task was maintaining their trade superiority in the Mediterranean, so a bonus for combat inside their territory still fits.

Gah, but all that still doesn't make the terribleness of the AI any better.

Ok, now about your gold proposition:
What I don't like about slamming gold on water is that it's simply boring. And it would still be better to work any plains tiles if they're available (with 3f 1p they're superior). If we were to go the gold route I would additionally place flat production on cothon and give it a military bonus, or even incorporate something like +2 production from naval buildings into the UA. When we look at the Ducal Stable it gets gold on resources and experience boost, which is a bit less, but Poland has one of the strongest UAs in the game. The Mayans get a shrine with 2 science and +1 faith, that early it's insanely strong. Not to mention the king of UBs, the Bazaar, with additional copies of luxuries (7gpt for each luxury or 4 happiness... Or strategics) and 2 gold on oasis and oil tiles (which alone could be UB, not a great one, but it could). Arabia's UA is of course worse than Polish, but their UU and UB are amazing. I think every civ should feel this way - that they have something amazing which is unique.

Note that in GnK Carthage actually had an early production bonus because harbors gave +1 prod to sea resources, making fish, whales etc. good tiles right away (whales being salt equivalents). Production from harbors isn't gamebreaking because there is no harbor at turn 1 (+2 production would be too strong if available since turn 1, I played with a mod that added that to harbors and earlygame Carthage was insane with that production. I could just spam nearest neighbour with units thanks to that early infrastructure I got that much faster than other could. It was just king or emperor though).

Alright, other ideas... What about giving the Cothon a city connection gold modifier (useless in capital), or making it a naval bazaar (additional copies of luxes, takes away uniqueness from Arabia so probably not), larger bonus to trade route gold, more range for trade routes (kind of meh), internal trade route effectiveness modifier (interesting, but it would serve creating super cities, not trading with others)? Culture from harbors could still work, but it's not an economic boost. Cothon could also just add +25% gold in the city, but it'd be bad in cities with low income. Unless combined with the gold yield on sea tiles? Maybe add merchant specialist slot(s)? Engineers and Scientists are a lot better... Maybe make their UA improve merchant specialists as well (more gold, more production, maybe some culture)? It'd be nice if they were actually useful for a trade empire. Gain a trade route slot for each great merchant generated? Scrap the quinquereme and give them a great merchant replacement who can sail like a great Admiral? Give great merchants an ability to found trade colonies which are puppets (and then add the trade route on Cothon). Or both - merchants sail like admirals, while both admirals and merchants can found trade colonies. Making great merchants useful for Carthage might be the way to go :)

Another idea: UI like Feitoria, but instead of granting luxuries it'd incorporate the nearest city to the carthaginian city connection network. Could be built in foreign civilization lands (milking that huge capital with Hanging Gardens and Temple of Artemis) and would provide significant gold when worked (dependant on something like number of resources nearby, era, size of the city). Called just "Trade colony" or something like that. If buildable by great merchants/admirals, could provide additional trade routes, but then would probably be buildable only in city states territories. If you send a trade route to such a city state, gain influence/turn (like freedom policy).

Woah. From merchant specialists to unique improvements. Dat train of thought.

As for Cothons place in the tech tree, I think Commerce is available later than sailing, in one column with optics. I would put Cothons on sailing and harbors on optics probably, to maintain the order. Maybe seaports available at compass? xD


[The post was edited 3 times, each time adding new ideas. I hope the whole is still readable after inserting more ideas in places I thought are right, but well, It's before 8 AM here and I started writing before 4 AM]

[EDIT] I just noticed that the merchant slot was already present in Netherlands' UB...
 
The idea wasn't to move Cothon earlier, it was to move it away from the other bonuses :D
If you have a UB available earlier than normal you have to reduce its power, because being avaiable earlier is a power in its own. Having it avaiable later and somewhere else in the techtree means you can add some extra power to it.

About the Quinquereme, yes that was meant as a promotion, and it is already a pretty damn powerful promotion as suggested, if I wanted to make it even stronger, by adding oceantravel that would probably be too good.
However my suggested was just that, a suggestion, if you feel like like you have a better role for it to fill please inform me, but I think a 2sight 2 movement promotion sounds excellent and extremely strong actually, people always underestimate how powerful extra sight actually is.

About all your other wonky suggestions:)D), assuming we could actually make them and balance them you'd really just be taking uniqueness away from venice at this point. Might make carthage better or more fun to play, but probably it would scare of everyone who hate Venice for that exact reason. It would also create another civ that the AI can't handle at all which is never a good idea imo.

Onwards to your comparison to other UBs, yes there are quite a few that are better, that's no secret really. The bazaar is getting changed(or is already changed, can't remember) but still, there are always some UBs that are stronger. And in my opinion my suggestion was borderline overpowered anyways :D

Also your talk about mercenary armies, a UB that gives you extra gold is going to make you able to rushbuy more units and help sustain a bigger army. If you're not at war the extra income will allow you to focus on other things like expanding trade and settling new cities.

Personally I don't like the idea of another unique merchant and that Feitoria thing sounded kinda weird and really hard for the AI to handle.

One idea could also be giving a unique replacement for the eastindia company, giving extra traderouteslots and even more gold, but that probably fit another civ better.
 
Okay, if it is a promotion then there is no need whatsoever to give another bonus. They will transform into beastly caravels and beastly ironclads... But it doesn't emphasize their trade focus. Overall I feel it should be more visible.

When it comes to moving bonuses away from each other, I don't think it is very good to do so. Because when a civ has many bonuses at similar times, but spread out around the tree it feels unfocused and clunky. It feels bad because you cannot efficiently use them. It always pained me because I usually ignored horseback riding as long as I could, getting it when I wanted to research civil service. Because of that I very rarely used the elephant (which is meh anyway). If the bonuses are spaced out in time this problem is of a smaller scale. But since Carthage is an ancient/classical civ, spreading them out actually hurts. Commerce however is not that bad because it is quite a good tech which should be researched with reasonably high priority. I pretty much never skip it before going education.

And well, in a finite sample of UB there's assuming a nontrivial distribution of strength there is always the strongest UB xD Why not give one to Carthage? xD

Well, the problem is that the AI will always make the best use of passive bonuses. And specialists, because AI loves specialists. So most of the time there's a tradeoff - do you want to make a compelling UA which requires you to work to benefit from it (Sweden, complex, interesting, fun, Assyria, let's go conquer while beelining techs and fill the other side of the tree by getting cities, Inca, specifically making a longer road so it only goes through hills), or do you want to make a passive UA which the AI will be able to use in its entirety (Poland, BAM social policy, Maya, BAM free GPs, Shoshone, BAM huge swath of land, Babs, BAM free GS).
Right now Carthage's UA just says "okay... So I want a lot of coastal cities I guess. And maybe Messenger of the Gods and Machu Picchu". And that's it. You also might consider some policies in Exploration (I think Naval Tradition for its synergy with Harbors) - but that thing is out in CBP.

So giving Carthage something to change their play to do something noone other does would be fun - but also break it for the AI. But still the free harbors itself are weak. You get a lump sum of hammers per city, reduction of maintenance and overseas city connections 20 to 30 turns earlier than others. The first two bonuses are outright garbage (the amount of hammers Rome gets over the game?) the last bonus may be anywhere from garbage to useful, but it will never be "OMG THAT'S FREAKING AMAZING". The most you can make with it is get Messenger of the Gods, which is a belief that falls off very quickly (I wanted to suggest scaling the bonus by era, which has been done for many other beliefs). The problem is that outside of this belief, Meritocracy and Machu Picchu nothing in the game emphasizes city connections.

The Cothon outright adding a trade route would be beyond broken, so that's why I tried to introduce limiting factors, but it would still be a nice reminder of what Cothon did in Civ 4 - but in Civ 4 trade routes were an entirely different mechanic (I loved building trade empires with Carthage) as every city could have a limited number of trade routes, each city could connect to each city inside the empire, but only one trade route per city in other civs, and there were lots of modifiers - Temple of Artemis, Great Lighthouse, Customs Houses, Harbors, adopting Free Market or if you wanted to stop that trade then Mercantilism... In Civ 5 you just get a set number of trade caravans/ships which you have to distribute between internal and external routes. Science is now separate from gold, so trade doesn't give that. I think the game could use an option to build around trade in the form of city connections - if only with one Civ, but not Carthage. Unless we take away the free harbors.

So, maybe:
Phoenician Heritage
All coastal cities gain free harbors once Commerce is researched. Merchant specialists generate +1 food, +1 gold. Gain an additional trade route slot each time a Great Merchant is born.

Trademark harbors kept, but still nothing to emphasize city connections - I think it's right since either you get better apples (Siam) or get them for cheap (Greece), if Carthage has free connections, then someone else might get a bonus to them. But I really think that Carthage should get a unique way to increase their trade route count, but maybe two bonuses to merchant specialists are too much and +1 food and gold should be dropped, but really, great merchants are that much worse than engineers and scientists that I think they could use the help.

Cothon
Unique replacement for Lighthouse, only Carthaginians may build it. Water tiles in the city range gain +1 gold, +2 production in the city.

Since it was also a military harbor, some bonus to that wouldn't be bad. City combat strength? Naval unit production? Everything fits. As much as I don't like the simple gold on tiles (you have to actually work them, which would work with puppets as they prioritize gold, but when you control the city by yourself you'd rather work the grassland/flood plains river farms, bananas, wheat etc. and the only way you'd get the bonus would be on sea resource tiles - which might be good enough. And with the gold one tile island might not be useless as the city would still grow and bring income.

Quinquereme
This unique Carthaginian unit is much faster and has longer sight range than the trireme, which it replaces, which makes it perfect for sea exploration and allowing for early expansion.

Your proposition and since we don't want it to become insane city taker it might just stay that way. I would maybe give it a bit more strength so it is easier for them to survive to being upgraded, or just make them go obsolete later than Caravels enter the picture.
 
Okay, if it is a promotion then there is no need whatsoever to give another bonus. They will transform into beastly caravels and beastly ironclads... But it doesn't emphasize their trade focus. Overall I feel it should be more visible.

When it comes to moving bonuses away from each other, I don't think it is very good to do so. Because when a civ has many bonuses at similar times, but spread out around the tree it feels unfocused and clunky. It feels bad because you cannot efficiently use them. It always pained me because I usually ignored horseback riding as long as I could, getting it when I wanted to research civil service. Because of that I very rarely used the elephant (which is meh anyway). If the bonuses are spaced out in time this problem is of a smaller scale. But since Carthage is an ancient/classical civ, spreading them out actually hurts. Commerce however is not that bad because it is quite a good tech which should be researched with reasonably high priority. I pretty much never skip it before going education.

And well, in a finite sample of UB there's assuming a nontrivial distribution of strength there is always the strongest UB xD Why not give one to Carthage? xD

Well, the problem is that the AI will always make the best use of passive bonuses. And specialists, because AI loves specialists. So most of the time there's a tradeoff - do you want to make a compelling UA which requires you to work to benefit from it (Sweden, complex, interesting, fun, Assyria, let's go conquer while beelining techs and fill the other side of the tree by getting cities, Inca, specifically making a longer road so it only goes through hills), or do you want to make a passive UA which the AI will be able to use in its entirety (Poland, BAM social policy, Maya, BAM free GPs, Shoshone, BAM huge swath of land, Babs, BAM free GS).
Right now Carthage's UA just says "okay... So I want a lot of coastal cities I guess. And maybe Messenger of the Gods and Machu Picchu". And that's it. You also might consider some policies in Exploration (I think Naval Tradition for its synergy with Harbors) - but that thing is out in CBP.

So giving Carthage something to change their play to do something noone other does would be fun - but also break it for the AI. But still the free harbors itself are weak. You get a lump sum of hammers per city, reduction of maintenance and overseas city connections 20 to 30 turns earlier than others. The first two bonuses are outright garbage (the amount of hammers Rome gets over the game?) the last bonus may be anywhere from garbage to useful, but it will never be "OMG THAT'S FREAKING AMAZING". The most you can make with it is get Messenger of the Gods, which is a belief that falls off very quickly (I wanted to suggest scaling the bonus by era, which has been done for many other beliefs). The problem is that outside of this belief, Meritocracy and Machu Picchu nothing in the game emphasizes city connections.

The Cothon outright adding a trade route would be beyond broken, so that's why I tried to introduce limiting factors, but it would still be a nice reminder of what Cothon did in Civ 4 - but in Civ 4 trade routes were an entirely different mechanic (I loved building trade empires with Carthage) as every city could have a limited number of trade routes, each city could connect to each city inside the empire, but only one trade route per city in other civs, and there were lots of modifiers - Temple of Artemis, Great Lighthouse, Customs Houses, Harbors, adopting Free Market or if you wanted to stop that trade then Mercantilism... In Civ 5 you just get a set number of trade caravans/ships which you have to distribute between internal and external routes. Science is now separate from gold, so trade doesn't give that. I think the game could use an option to build around trade in the form of city connections - if only with one Civ, but not Carthage. Unless we take away the free harbors.
Extra exploration on your quinquereme does promote trade since you can scout out citylocations that you can send traderoutes to. I meant honestly exploration in european history have mostly been to seek out new trades.


So, maybe:
Phoenician Heritage
All coastal cities gain free harbors once Commerce is researched. Merchant specialists generate +1 food, +1 gold. Gain an additional trade route slot each time a Great Merchant is born.

Trademark harbors kept, but still nothing to emphasize city connections - I think it's right since either you get better apples (Siam) or get them for cheap (Greece), if Carthage has free connections, then someone else might get a bonus to them. But I really think that Carthage should get a unique way to increase their trade route count, but maybe two bonuses to merchant specialists are too much and +1 food and gold should be dropped, but really, great merchants are that much worse than engineers and scientists that I think they could use the help.
This is way too much, probably enough to cover 2 or 3 UAs. Gold is a pretty solid yield now, and merchants are nowhere near useless. Great merchants however probably still need a second ability since their ability to gain influence with citystates was scrapped.

While I do agree that the Carthagan UA is pretty weak, it is nowhere near to being the weakest. and I'm pretty sure if you replace the elephant with a decent UB the civ would probably be top-tier. However if you feel like the UA is just too weak there are some ways of fixing that. For example you could add a goldcost reduction when buying units, that would probably be pretty fitting historically. Giving founded cities some extra watertiles could also work, if not all without workable radius, maybe all in the second tilering? Or all coastaltiles(not ocean). Also in my optinion the Harbors should probably be avaiable at latest at optics.

Cothon
Unique replacement for Lighthouse, only Carthaginians may build it. Water tiles in the city range gain +1 gold, +2 production in the city.

Since it was also a military harbor, some bonus to that wouldn't be bad. City combat strength? Naval unit production? Everything fits. As much as I don't like the simple gold on tiles (you have to actually work them, which would work with puppets as they prioritize gold, but when you control the city by yourself you'd rather work the grassland/flood plains river farms, bananas, wheat etc. and the only way you'd get the bonus would be on sea resource tiles - which might be good enough. And with the gold one tile island might not be useless as the city would still grow and bring income.
The bonus wasn't made to make you prioritize coasttiles over actual resourcetiles, that would just be silly. It was meant as a bonus you'd get when you work coasttiles because you have no real good tiles nearby (which actually is somewhat of a problem with coastal cities). I'd personally see the building being focused one way, gold, food or production. Having bonuses all over the place makes the building seem either way too good, or kinda meh.
Suggestion: Old lighthousebonuses +1gold on all coast and ocean tiles, and one of the following. 'Flat gold/turn' or 'extra gold from traderoutes'(like a market)

Quinquereme
This unique Carthaginian unit is much faster and has longer sight range than the trireme, which it replaces, which makes it perfect for sea exploration and allowing for early expansion.

Your proposition and since we don't want it to become insane city taker it might just stay that way. I would maybe give it a bit more strength so it is easier for them to survive to being upgraded, or just make them go obsolete later than Caravels enter the picture.
I'd like to bump it up to the same str as a normal Trireme, feels kinda silly to have it weaker honestly.
 
This is way too much, probably enough to cover 2 or 3 UAs. Gold is a pretty solid yield now, and merchants are nowhere near useless. Great merchants however probably still need a second ability since their ability to gain influence with citystates was scrapped.

Well, I suspected it might be too much, but I wouldn't just cut it to the harbors themselves. I would cut 1/3 of it. As I said, I feel that giving Carthage a way to generate additional trade routes (as opposed to, you know, giving it to them for free) is fitting and a good idea. And a strong bonus.

Since every GP has an ability to make something permanent and a one-shot boost, I don't think adding trade route slots would work for that. I would consider creating a one-time super trade route, double yield double range for example, which can be over the limit.

By the way, why was the city state ability removed?

Funak said:
While I do agree that the Carthaginian UA is pretty weak, it is nowhere near to being the weakest. and I'm pretty sure if you replace the elephant with a decent UB the civ would probably be top-tier. However if you feel like the UA is just too weak there are some ways of fixing that. For example you could add a goldcost reduction when buying units, that would probably be pretty fitting historically. Giving founded cities some extra watertiles could also work, if not all without workable radius, maybe all in the second tilering? Or all coastaltiles(not ocean). Also in my optinion the Harbors should probably be avaiable at latest at optics.

When I am evaluating the strength of civs, I look at ADWCTA's BNW Deity Tier List:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=505057

When you look at the top tier, you see two civs with combination of great UAs and strong buildings (Poland and Maya, even though the UAs are boring) and two civs with decent UUs and insane UAs. Free harbors+decent UB wouldn't put Carthage in that tier. Right now you could compare Carthage to Inca - Inca get large discount on city connections (larger than Carthage since cities are usually more spaced out than three tiles - unless ICS) and a nice scouting/military bonus, also cheaper conquering thanks to roads. Slinger is mediocre, but the UI gives a huge bonus to growth. Compared to Carthage? I guess Quinquereme would be comparable to the Slinger and maybe the scouting bonus (if we add sight&movement), and if we add gold generating Cothon it'd be on par with their gold bonus. What about the military and huge growth? ;)
As for a discount, this is really powerful, potentially too powerful because the more discounts you have, the more powerful it gets (as the rate at which you can buy things increases), so it is very easy to undervalue its power. I think this is additive in civ 5, so if you get the commerce discount plus big ben for 40% price reduction, its like you just increased your gold output by 66,7%. A discount for units could even be more powerful than the rest of the UA, while not adding choices/gameplay (if it was another 15% then you'd hit 55% discount for units with commerce and big ben, translating to 122% increased gold income for units). So it's deceptively strong while being passive and boring. Not what we want ;)

So, why am I forcing the bonus trade routes that hard? xD Because you can do a lot with a trade route. It is not one-dimensional, it gives you options. You can use it to earn money, you can use it to gain some science when behind, you can use it to spread your religion, gain influence with city states, to grow cities, to increase production. Very versatile, lots of ways to utilize it, introduces additional gameplay. And another reason is that Carthage would need SOMETHING to work for it when on a land map. Pangea isn't that bad, you can expand along the coast, but Lakes? Great Plains? That would hurt, because they'd get no UU, no UA, no UB.


Funak said:
The bonus wasn't made to make you prioritize coasttiles over actual resourcetiles, that would just be silly. It was meant as a bonus you'd get when you work coasttiles because you have no real good tiles nearby (which actually is somewhat of a problem with coastal cities). I'd personally see the building being focused one way, gold, food or production. Having bonuses all over the place makes the building seem either way too good, or kinda meh.
Suggestion: Old lighthousebonuses +1gold on all coast and ocean tiles, and one of the following. 'Flat gold/turn' or 'extra gold from traderoutes'(like a market)

Lighthouse doesn't really provide any gold, so with added gold benefits cothon would become all over the place anyway, giving food and gold on water, production on sea resources, food on fish AND the third bonus you mentioned. But yeah, you may be right that the added bonus should be more focused. But then how do you show that a Cothon was both a military harbor and a center of trade? How do you emphasize that Carthage should go wide by default? Not that my suggestions emphasized that xD (except the bonus route in puppets).


Funak said:
I'd like to bump it up to the same str as a normal Trireme, feels kinda silly to have it weaker honestly.

I am not sure how it works right now actually. When I actually fought Bismarck's triremes my quinqueremes had a slight advantage, but on the other hand Civilopedia says that Triremes have 15 while Quinqueremes 13. The combat outcome prediction window indicated that Triremes had 12.
 
Well, I suspected it might be too much, but I wouldn't just cut it to the harbors themselves. I would cut 1/3 of it. As I said, I feel that giving Carthage a way to generate additional trade routes (as opposed to, you know, giving it to them for free) is fitting and a good idea. And a strong bonus.
I'm not saying it isn't fitting or a strong bonus, in fact I'm saying that it's a way too powerful bonus :D

By the way, why was the city state ability removed?
Overlapping with Great Diplomat.


When I am evaluating the strength of civs, I look at ADWCTA's BNW Deity Tier List:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=505057

When you look at the top tier, you see two civs with combination of great UAs and strong buildings (Poland and Maya, even though the UAs are boring) and two civs with decent UUs and insane UAs. Free harbors+decent UB wouldn't put Carthage in that tier.
My tierlists usually have a tier above toptier, that's what I meant. No it wouldn't place Carthage with Poland or Babylon but it would be pretty close, and probably stronger on some maptypes. The godtier is godtier mostly because they can handle any situation, imo carthage shouldn't be able to handle any situation, they should be pretty damn gimped if you have no access to coast :D. Also my point was that the UB is actually way strong, probably atleast top5 UBs in the game.

Gold discount on units also probably wouldn't. Right now you could compare Carthage to Inca - Inca get large discount on city connections (larger than Carthage since cities are usually more spaced out than three tiles - unless ICS) and a nice scouting/military bonus.
I don't see how they get a larger discount on city connections considering Carthages cityconnections are free.

Slinger is mediocre, UI gives a huge bonus to growth though. Compared to Carthage? I guess Quinquereme would be comparable to the Slinger and maybe the scouting bonus (if we add sight&movement), and if we add gold generating Cothon it'd be on par with their gold bonus. What about the military and huge growth? ;) So they should be given something.
Imo the slinger is complete garbage, probably the worst UU in the game, not counting atlantist. I mean it's a archer, with lower combat strength that can't escort settlers.
Their UI is great, but it is also situational, you're way more likely to have a map with coast than a map with mountains surrounded by hills.
As I see it, your free harbors are better than discounted roads, your quinquereme is way better than the slinger, the cothon is probably weaker than the terracefarm but easier to get good use out of. Any added bonus to the UA would be counted against the free hillscouting promotion, and would probably lose because that promotion is awesome.
Bottom line is that they would end up pretty equal in my eyes.

As for a discount, this is potentially really powerful because the more discounts you have, the more powerful it gets (as the Rate at which you can buy things increases), so it is very easy to undervalue its power. I think this is additive in civ 5, but if you get the commerce discount plus big ben, its like you increased your gold output by 42%. A discount for units could even be more powerful than the rest of the UA, while not adding choices/gameplay. And it's another boring passive bonus.
Well I've given you two different suggestions, both equally boring and weak (which they need to be since free harbors already is pretty meaty).
If you've got a suggestion that is weak enough not to make the UA overpowered feel free to share it, but I really don't think anything adding traderoutes would work since traderoutes are so damn powerful. Possibly one free traderoute in the capital added at some later tech or building could work, but anything more than that would be pretty outrageous.

Lighthouse doesn't really provide any gold, so with added gold benefits cothon would become all over the place anyway, giving food and gold on water, production on sea resources, food on fish AND the third bonus you mentioned. But yeah, you may be right that the added bonus should be more focused. But then how do you show that a Cothon was both a military harbor and a center of trade? How do you emphasize that Carthage should go wide by default? Not that my suggestions emphasized that xD (except the bonus route in puppets).
I thought the gold was military since you talked about mercenary troops :D
How to empathise on wide? Honestly I have no idea, wide is pretty much always better anyways and the only real way I can see of promoting it is by punishing compact playstyle, which isn't really a good idea considering you can get boxed in and get forced to go compact.

I am not sure how it works right now actually. When I actually fought Bismarck's triremes my quinqueremes had a slight advantage, but on the other hand Civilopedia says that Triremes have 15 while Quinqueremes 13. The combat outcome prediction window indicated that Triremes had 12.
Combat works in mysterious ways.
 
I'm not saying it isn't fitting or a strong bonus, in fact I'm saying that it's a way too powerful bonus :D

I really don't think it is as powerful as you perceive it. It has to be strong for it to be fun and worth it, and it's not like I slammed Venice's double routes on them (honestly double routes are more boring than what I proposed).

Funak said:
My tierlists usually have a tier above toptier, that's what I meant. No it wouldn't place Carthage with Poland or Babylon but it would be pretty close, and probably stronger on some maptypes. The godtier is godtier mostly because they can handle any situation, imo carthage shouldn't be able to handle any situation, they should be pretty damn gimped if you have no access to coast :D. Also my point was that the UB is actually way strong, probably atleast top5 UBs in the game.

Do you mean it is top 5 in the current form with gold on sea tiles and flat gold/trade route gold bonus (which would also imply 0 maintenance)? Or that we should make it be top 5?

I don't see how they get a larger discount on city connections considering Carthages cityconnections are free.

Harbor has 3 maintenance. Road costs 1 per tile. When you connect the city 6 tiles away through flatland you get 3 gold discount, equal to Carthage. If through hills, 6 gold discount, more than Carthage. Overall I would expect there to be larger distances between cities and Inca player to make snaky roads to build them on hills, so the discount is larger. Of course in a water map Inca has to build normal harbors (but still needs one per landmass), while Carthage could just ditch roads whatsoever, but in a balanced map I think Inca would save more. Hammers excluded, but it's just 120 hammers per city, equal to several turns (well, getting a harbor in a 1 pop city would take very long, but a 1 pop city won't bring much gold through city connections. It was useful because of instant meritocracy happiness in vanilla, but it's gone in CBP).

Funak said:
Imo the slinger is complete garbage, probably the worst UU in the game, not counting atlatlist. I mean it's an archer, with lower combat strength that can't escort settlers.
Their UI is great, but it is also situational, you're way more likely to have a map with coast than a map with mountains surrounded by hills.
As I see it, your free harbors are better than discounted roads, your quinquereme is way better than the slinger, the cothon is probably weaker than the terracefarm but easier to get good use out of. Any added bonus to the UA would be counted against the free hillscouting promotion, and would probably lose because that promotion is awesome.
Bottom line is that they would end up pretty equal in my eyes.

I was comparing vanilla quinquereme with the slinger. The slinger has some uses, he can still fire just fine and is overall safer from the barbarians. The inability to escort settlers truly sucks though xD. Vanilla quinquereme is not very useful though. Same speed, nothing unique, just some more strength. Quinquereme with awesome movement and sight powers is of course much better, but it won't confer insane benefits anyway (as you won't wipe out a civ and get another capital with it xD).
I elaborated on the free harbors vs road discount. Since harbors additionally give hammers, I'd rate it as equal. Inca get a hills bias so they get at least some hills with mountains nearby, and sometimes it gets just insane. And also they can make any non-resource hill into 2f 2p tile, which is pretty good on its own (as all hills now pay for themselves in food).

Funak said:
Well I've given you two different suggestions, both equally boring and weak (which they need to be since free harbors already is pretty meaty).
If you've got a suggestion that is weak enough not to make the UA overpowered feel free to share it, but I really don't think anything adding traderoutes would work since traderoutes are so damn powerful. Possibly one free traderoute in the capital added at some later tech or building could work, but anything more than that would be pretty outrageous.

To be fair free harbors are also a bit boring xD Well, they are exciting at first, but there's not much gameplay they introduce. I don't think it is that meaty, and CBP weakens it in fact because of happiness changes (meritocracy).

One free trade route at some tech or building is pretty much a passive bonus just like harbors, since you get most non-lategame techs anyway. Consider how many great merchants you are going to generate in a game, and remember that merchants are in the same pool with engineers and scientists, so each great merchant delays engineers and scientists and vice versa.
Great Merchants giving trade routes when born - let's imagine a situation that you get your liberty finisher and some good wonders are not built yet and you don't have any academies - do you get a merchant for the trade route, or do you get scientist to boost your science output significantly? Or maybe this engineer for petra/colossus so you get the trade route anyway as well as added wonder bonus and free caravan/cargo ship?

I think during the game there would be no more than 3, maybe 4 natural born merchants. What could pose a problem is the faith buy, but finishing commerce isn't very popular and as Carthage you're not really going to be able to consistently found a religion and get the reformation belief "To the Glory of God" (damn, I never play religiously so I don't really know if the reformation beliefs were changed in CBP). I can see faith buying merchants being an issue, so this should probably be excluded (still you wouldn't spend this faith on scientists then). So they would get no more than 3-4 great merchants through point accumulation and perhaps 1 from liberty finisher and 1 from Pisa, total 5-6 merchants - which is strong, but you are sacrificing great scientists and engineers for that (how much does a scientist delay merchants and engineers?).
Ok, so 5-6 routes over the game is half of what Venice gets, but you have to work for that bonus and it still comes with a tradeoff. If you don't work hard for it you will get around 3 great merchants. I think it is a great bonus and not broken, and something to fall back to when landlocked (even though land routes are much weaker).

Funak said:
I thought the gold was military since you talked about mercenary troops :D
How to empathise on wide? Honestly I have no idea, wide is pretty much always better anyways and the only real way I can see of promoting it is by punishing compact playstyle, which isn't really a good idea considering you can get boxed in and get forced to go compact.

Not entirely. Carthage relied on mercenary troops in their land wars, but in the navy served mainly Phoenicians, as far as I know.
 
I think during the game there would be no more than 3, maybe 4 natural born merchants. What could pose a problem is the faith buy, but finishing commerce isn't very popular and as Carthage you're not really going to be able to consistently found a religion and get the reformation belief "To the Glory of God" (damn, I never play religiously so I don't really know if the reformation beliefs were changed in CBP). I can see faith buying merchants being an issue, so this should probably be excluded (still you wouldn't spend this faith on scientists then). So they would get no more than 3-4 great merchants through point accumulation and perhaps 1 from liberty finisher and 1 from Pisa, total 5-6 merchants - which is strong, but you are sacrificing great scientists and engineers for that (how much does a scientist delay merchants and engineers?).
Ok, so 5-6 routes over the game is half of what Venice gets, but you have to work for that bonus and it still comes with a tradeoff. If you don't work hard for it you will get around 3 great merchants. I think it is a great bonus and not broken, and something to fall back to when landlocked (even though land routes are much weaker).

I remember spawning over 25 Great merchants in another mod which added extra food to customhouses, that mod probably had some changes to GPP generation but still. I've played vanilla games where I've had 12 manufactories.

This however is hardly relevant because the issue we have right now is that I basically think the existing Carthage UA works, and you think it is so useless it needs to be replaced.
 
Yes, pretty much that. I also used to played LoL a lot, pretty passionately and I have the concepts of gameplay, counterplay and clarity engraved deep into my mind xD Thankfully there is not much room for introducing counterplay in Civ (only during wars, and it only applies to multiplayer anyway), but for example Keshiks don't have much counterplay. They slowly whittle down your cities and get out of range and you cannot do much about that.

But to the point. Carthage's UA is in my opinion underwhelming and doesn't introduce additional gameplay. Since I feel it's not strong enough to be a full-fledged UA, I think there should be another bonus.

I think we agree that mountain crossing is so minor and fringe that it doesn't do anything besides adding flavor and being kind of a tribute to Hannibal. So ok, 5 trade routes is pretty damn strong. There's a potential for more, and it would make for a very strong UA itself.


Oh crap! Mercenary armies -> "Can purchase unique units of civilizations they have declared friendship with"? ;) or "Can purchase unique units of civilizations they have sent a diplomat to and specialty units of friendly/allied militaristic city states".

That's potentially insanely strong, but also has huge variance. And is flavorful as hell (balearic slingers, numidian cavalry, infantry from Garamant, iberian scutarii and cavalry, cretan archers...)

Yeah, I know, won't pass xD

No more ideas right now, I'll think about that.
 
Accidental doublepost, sorry.

But might as well use it, since Gazebo released a new update - Harbors are now available independently of the tech tree, which is reverting it back to vanilla state. Effectively a buff to the current state in the patch. Honestly it's not a large difference between unlocking immediately and at optics, but compass was too late. Do you think it could stay that way, or should it be moved back?
 
Top Bottom