Cassiel & The Compact

[Wyrmhero]

My favourite civilisation to be in Ffh is definatly the Grigori. But, I don't know anything about them or Cassiel, except that he used to be an archangel under the service of a god, but he split after the Compact. So:

Who was Cassiel before the Compact?
What was the god he surved under called & what sphere did he command?
When was the Compact signed?

Thanks in advance.

Wyrmhero

 

[Ur_Vile_Wedge]

Cassiel was the right hand/goon of the Dagda, whom I believe is the god/Angel of Metamagic. (someone correct me if I'm wrong about the metamagic part.)

The Compact, which is the agreement of the Gods not to directly interfere with Creation, was signed at the end of the Age of Dragons (it's signing ended the Age of Dragons and teh inter God war that characterised it), thus enabling the Age of Magic.

 

[Wyrmhero]

Thanks. I find it a bit odd that Cassiel was the archangel of Metamagic. Does this mean that the Grigori might start with Metamagic Mana? And why does he get the Mana he has from his Palace? I can understand Spirit, but...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Cassiel was the "archangel" (second in command) to Dagda, the God(Angel) of Balance (Force)

Cassiel is actually the one who came up with the idea for the compact, when he saw all the harm that the wars between the gods were causing. He wanted to put an end to it, and so convinced his master Dagda to gather the other neutral gods together to enforce a truce. They forged the Godslayer, and agreed to fight any angel, good or evil, who continued to fight in creation.

I believe it was shortly little after this that all the gods were convened at the Seven Pines to work out the details of the Compact and to sign it. Then they handed the Godslayer to the legendary Finner, and tasked the Order of the Elohim to guard their holy sites. This was the End of the Godswar and of the Age of dragons (dragons were banned by the compact).

However, the compact did not go far enough in the eyes of Cassiel. It didn't allow the gods to fight each other directly in creation, but they could still be involved. Their powers were limited to based on the sun total of the faith that mortals had in them. They were still free to wage war against eachother by proxy, having their worshipers destroy each other in their names.

Cassiel could not stand this. He had called for the Compact to protect humanity, but it had reduced to pawns in the Gods petty arguments, which his his eyes had nothing to do with their own interests of well being.

Thus he chose to fall, not for love of power like Agares and those angels he corrupted, but for disdain of it. He firmly believes that the angels should follow the example of The One, and stay completely uninvolved in the affairs of mortals. He himself, however, isn't completely uninvolved, since he feels that mortals need someone to lead them and stop them from falling prey to the petty ambitions of his fellow angels. Staying true to his principles, he refuses to use any abilities that a mere human could not, even when doing so would mean saving the lives of thousands (He wouldn't use his divine power to heal those dieing of the plague, but instead created the Ordine Medicos (the order of grigori medics) to heal diseases without relying on magic or prayer.


He also gave shelter to the Luonnatar, although he doesn't agree woth them on everything. The Luonnatar were a group of mortals who figured out the truth about the gods and The One, and began to worship the one in secret. Since they "blasphemed" both good and evil gods, they were persecuted in all societies. However, their faith in The One miraculously saved them from magic both arcane and divine. Once a group of them was captured by Order Priests, who decided to execute them by tieing them so a stake and calling own fire from heaven to consume them in the center of a crowded town square. It came, but burned only the ropes binding them, letting them walk away unharmed to the shock of all the on lookers. They found shelter among the Grigori, although Cassiel himself disapproved of them worshiping the one; he personally believes that The One doesn't want to be worshiped, and that men should rely wholly on their own strength. He will not, however, allow a minor religious difference like this to escalate into conflict.

 

[Fenboy]

This was the End of the Godswar and of the Age of dragons (dragons were banned by the compact).

Semi-OT, does anyone know who Eurabatres & Abashi worked for during the Godswar? I know Acheron was Bhall's, and I assume Abashi belonged to Agares, but I'd like some comfirmation, if any exists

 

[Wyrmhero]

Thanks. I always knew I liked Cassiel for a very good reason, and now I know.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Semi-OT, does anyone know who Eurabatres & Abashi worked for during the Godswar? I know Acheron was Bhall's, and I assume Abashi belonged to Agares, but I'd like some comfirmation, if any exists

I don't know for sure, but I'm tempted to say that they were the dragons of the Gods/sphere their civ's represent. If so, then Eurabatres is the dragon of Amathaon (creation), and Abashi is the Dragon of Ceridwen (Dimensional).

 

[Kael]

I don't know for sure, but I'm tempted to say that they were the dragons of the Gods/sphere their civ's represent. If so, then Eurabatres is the dragon of Amathaon (creation), and Abashi is the Dragon of Ceridwen (Dimensional).

Cultuum is correct on all counts (as usual). The only correction I would make to the above is that a mortal is limited by his faith in his ability to channel divine power. But the gods are not limited by faith, nor are they more or less powerful based on their amount of worshippers. That reminds me of the gods of the Forgotten realm (where gods can appear or dissapear based on worship).

The gods of Erebus are bound by a laberinthine codex of laws in the Codex, of which the channeling of powers through mortals is only a small part. Although in general it can be said that a god has more pull in an area with strong worshippers.

Kilmorph would not be allowed, for example, to simply destroy a city full of people she didn't like with an earthquake. But she would be able to slowly erode the ground under that city for centuries until it eventually collapses. Even more she would be able to place ore under the city and entice the greedy men of the city to mine it out without regard to the potential danger. Then when eventually a priest of kilmorph stands on the hill above the city and looks down, channeling his faith and power for it to be destroyed that last straw would be broken and the city would fall.

Hopefully that distinction makes sence.

 

[Wolfprint]

He himself, however, isn't completely uninvolved, since he feels that mortals need someone to lead them and stop them from falling prey to the petty ambitions of his fellow angels. Staying true to his principles, he refuses to use any abilities that a mere human could not, even when doing so would mean saving the lives of thousands (He wouldn't use his divine power to heal those dieing of the plague, but instead created the Ordine Medicos (the order of grigori medics) to heal diseases without relying on magic or prayer.

I think Cassiel's involvement with humanity (despite his belief that the gods should not) has the potential to lead to some corruption of his basic nature. I get the feeling from the lore that the perils of this world is that taking things to extreme can have oft-disastrous circumstances. Cassiel's walk on the fine line makes him all the more interesting.

 

[Kael]

Yeah, it makes him really hard to write for too. In the D&D games he was spoken about more than directly used (Branding, the first adventurer that the Grigori usually create, was who interacted with the party most of the time). And I went around and around before I got his pedia entry to a state I liked.

I think he only speaks 3 times in that pedia entry and doesn't take any significant action. But it still manages to capture who he is. Just like you say he has to walk a very fine line.

It was important to me that when he shelters Elizabeths father he doesnt give him anything. He just allows Elizabeths father to change his own life. He gives him a new name, and allows him to be reborn much as Cassiel has, but the choice and the effort belong to Elizabeths father. The Bannor may rush in and rescue you, Cassiel only offers the opportunity to rescue yourself.

 

[Wolfprint]

I've never gotten Branding before. I keep getting Bhalira or Groo

Yes, complex characters are always difficult to write for. I think therein lies Cassiel's (and by extension, the Grigori's) appeal. I wonder if Cassiel and Cardith Lorda would have been great friends, or at least cordial, given the nature of their inclusive societies and similar outlooks on running cities (i.e. laissez-faire meritocracies...)

That said, I always raze the Kuriotates cities early, in case they become uber-powerhouses

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I don't think Cassiel would like Lorda very much though, because the boy-king is possessed by/one with a Dragon who is trying to circumvent the rules of the compact. This is the most powerful being ever created by not anyone but The One trying to manipulate a young boy so that he can re-inter creation and would then probably directly use his unmatched power restart the Godswar, returning the world to the chaos of the age of dragons (unless of course he manages to immediately win against the forces of evil, in which case humanity would likely be subject to the tyranny of the "good" gods). The boy-king already rules a totalitarian (albeit benevolent) theocratic society (he is clearly described as a God-King) and to use his super natural knowledge and power to interfere in human affairs. Kuriotates society may be inclusive and diverse, but it is held together in a way that Cassiel would not approve of.


I usually assumed that Cassiel and the Grigori would get along best with the Elohim. Surly he must have a great deal of respect for Immanuel Logos, and probably his successors. After all, Immanuel abandoned the service of his goddess (Sirona) to take care of the orphans of those who were slain in the gods' senseless conflicts, regardless of whom they worshiped. He saw the damage that even Sirona and her angels had personally caused, despite their good intentions, and would not be any less benevolent to those who had fought for her great enemy, Aeron. Of course, the Goddess of Spirit and Wisdom approved of this decision, since it was was the wise and kind thing to do, so you could argue that he never really left her service when he abandoned the signs of her divine authority. Still, he took the initiative and trusted in his own ability (and the ability of the other mortals he could convince to join him) to make the world a better place, and he wouldn't let religious differences get in the way. Assuming that the Elohim continue his legacy (as the civilopedia says they do), I see no reason why Cassiel and Einion shouldn't be great friends and allies.


Obviously, Cassiel's greatest enemies would be Hyborem and Basium. I'm not sure whom he'd hate more; he probably considers them to be equally bad, but would more strongly oppose which ever ones is strongest at the time.

 

[Kael]

Yeah, Cassiel always argued that Basium and Hyborem were the same. An example he used to prove that fanatism was bad in any extreme. That if you moved far enough down the spectrum toward either side you looped back around to the other side. Oddly Basium and Cassiel were the two archangels that split from their lords because of the compact, Basium because it was to restrictive, Cassiel because it wasnt restrictive enough.

Cassiel actually is friends with and has a huge respect for Sabathiel and Brigit. Philisophically he is almost completly opposed to everything Sabathiel believes in (Cassiel doesn't like Junil) but the two have always been odd friends. Cassiel is particuarly impressed with the fact that Sabathiel went into hell to rescue the people trapped there.

Brigit the Shining is Bhall's archangel and she refused to fall with her queen. So Bhall imprisoned her in the frozen northern wastes. Cassiel loves that example, liking the fact that it is about devotion to a true righteous cause regardless of the consequences. The conquest of personal philosophy vs the mandate of ones superior.

 

[Wolfprint]

How about Cassiel's interactions with the Grigori then? I know Cassiel lets them run themselves, but beyond that simple description, I would like to know how exactly he does so. Apart from being the spiritual (not sure if that is the right word to use in this regard) figurehead, does he also make recommendations or suggestions as to certain Grigori policies?

In fact, how do the Grigori run their society? Is it a republic? Classical democracy? Loose agglomeration of peoples? Because a gathering of people can only occur so long before issues of law and order arise. I'm pretty sure not all inhabitants and adventurers are willing to play nice.

 

[Kael]

The Grigori have a government based on the teaching of Cassiel. He is an incrediably influential part of the government but tried to set it up to run without him. In that regard he is more like the queen of england on steroids with little real political power but enough influence to get anything he wants done if he decides to use it. Even the army is decentralized (and often disorganized, adventurers are officially in the army but do pretty much what they want unless called on).

Cassiel understands that pragmatism and anti-fanatism are not enough to base a government on. And just as you say a society has to have a method to resolve disputes. The actual Grigori empire was feudal. But the assignment of feudal lords (better put as representatives, but there was no vote) was based on moderation and a desire to allow each individual to determine his own philosophy. Cassiel was fond of making farmers representatives for an area (he actually just loved farmers in general, which was a common job because of the lands they occupied), and didnt like specialists, professional politicians, or those with an agenda. In his mind the perfect government was the one that already existed when a small community came together on a monthly basis to talk about issues, as long as it was without bias. He tried to create that on a larger scale.

Cassiel preferred to interact on the small scale, make a meaningful difference in an individuals life. But he doesnt see much use in big plans that try to do the same on a global scale. Someone trying to setup public healers across the empire would be knocked down. Regardless of the plan the Grigori want help from their neighbors, not their government. Even an ailing family may ask their representative for help, he would put the request to his community and if no one helped then there would be no help. Of course this tends to incline neighbors to help out, especially since they know that someday they may need the help in return, but their is no governmental mandate for support.

The representative can make requests for help to higher levels of the governmental hierarchy, but outside of major issues (war, etc) this is rare and higher ups follow the same practice of moderation and requests for help as the lower levels.

Because of this the "true" Grigori aren't military or technology leaders. They would be great producers of food and that would form the bulk of their economy. Even to the point of shying away from to many specilized merchants, traders and grocers. Though those that did go into those roles (as well as the craftsmen jobs) were typically immigrants from other lands.

 

[Ur_Vile_Wedge]

Should Philisophical be a trait for them then? I understand how Cassiel is a very philisophical sort, and would have to be to hold his own position on the compact, but would he lead in a way that the "Philisophical" trait implies It kind of pushes the Grigori into an economy dominated by well, specialists, and while maybe I have the wrong picture here, I always kind of pictured a SE as being large number of serfs/peasants providing for the support of the artist/scientist/merchant elite who controlled most of the GDP etc etc etc. It would seem to me that a town based economy, where everyone comes together on more or less equal terms, would fit the Grigori better.


(Although at the moment I can't really think of anything better for a second trait.........)

 

[xienwolf]

Could be interesting to make him an "Anti-Sidar" style. All specialists produce LESS output, but every standard tile is worth an extra production or commerce (I would say food since the value on farming, but that would again lead to many specialists).

 

[Kael]

He's philosophical just because of the synergy between that and adventurer units. If it wasn't for that he would have a different trait.

In fact even with being philosophical the Grigori probably produce less prophets, sages, artists, engineers, merchants and commanders than ny other civ (because they mroe commonly swap their points for adventurers).

 

[Ur_Vile_Wedge]

Then I really second the idea of Xienwolf's to make all of their specialists more puny. -1 to all the things the Sidar are +1 at.


Edit. Total Side point. How big is Cassiel? Odio's Prison, and the little figure for Hyborem. (I can't seem to remember what Bassium looks like) seems to indicate that the angels are pretty big..... Is Cassiel of extra human dimensions? (I always picture him as human sized for some reason)

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

On the subject of Hyborem:

Is Hyborem a fallen angel? If not, how can he enter creation without breaking the Compact?