Caste System VS Slavery

[Percy]

Hello all.

I'm quoting this from another post. I believe it could prove interesting to debate the pros and cons of these civics, especially (but not exclusively) in light of the following quote:

Slavery is a very useful civic, probably the most useful one in the game as it comes early and is a way to get an efficient hammer production in cities without hills or with very few hills. It is a civic that allows you to efficiently transform food into hammers (if you have a granary) by poprushing citizens. It also allows you to do something useful with excess population points in cities that can't be stopped growing.

Workshops effectively do the same. They lower the food count on a flatland tile and increase the hammer count on a flatland tile, effectively transforming food into hammers. The reason why workshops are seen as a poor tile is that they do this transformation process relatively poorly, the conversion factor is bad. What caste system now does is improve the conversion factor. This actually makes caste system a competitor for slavery to produce hammers in cities with a low number of hills.

An example comparison of slavery and caste system at normal speed in the mid game. Slavery is most efficient when used to poprush 2 citizens because if you time it well, then you can immediately regrow 1 of those citizens and won't suffer any unhappiness while regrowing to the happy cap.
The happy/health cap in this city is reached at size 12.

Tech level: guilds has been discovered, so workshops have a basic output of -1 food + 2 hammers. Workshops give -1 food, +3 hammers in caste system. A grassland workshop will produce 1 food, 3 hammers in this civic.

The city is size 11, about to become size 12. It's at 41/42 food.

With the slavery civic and the caste system civic, the city will use 9 identical tiles with a net food output of +3 and an undetermined hammer and commerce yield. The 10-th, 11-th and 12-th tile being used by the caste system city are all three grassland workshops each with an output of +1 food, +3 hammers. In the slavery civic, the 10-th tile is a grassland farm (3 food) and the 11-th a grassland village (2 food, 3 commerce). The city has a granary to facilitate fast regrowth for the slavery civic.

I will compare the yield of the citizens working the last three tiles of the city plus the poprushing yield in the caste system and the slavery civic.

Slavery:
turn 0: poprush 2 citizens for 60 hammers, size 9 41/38 food, 3 food per turn
turn 1 size 10, 25/40 food, 4 food per turn
turn 4 size 10, 37/40 food, 4 food per turn
turn 5 size 11, 21/42 food, 4 food per turn, 3 commerce per turn
turn 9, size 11, 37/42 food, 4 food per turn, 3 commerce per turn
turn 10 size 11, 41/42 food, 4 food per turn, 3 commerce per turn

This is an ideal situation for the slavery civic. A perfectly timed regrowth to size to get another poprush and a minimal number of unused tiles during regrowth. Not always can you get such an ideal regrowth scenario and not always will there be something useful to poprush for exactly 2 citizens. You don't want to start poprushing stuff that you don't need just so that you can get a 2 pop poprush. Usually, the situation is less ideal than this.

In the above situation, you'll get 60 hammers and 15 commerce in a poprush cycle (turn 0-turn 9).

Caste System:
turn 0, size 11 41/42 food, 1 food per turn, 6 hammers per turn
turn 1, size 12, 21/44 food, 0 food per turn, 9 hammers per turn
turn 9, size 12, 21/44 food, 0 food per turn, 9 hammers per turn

This will give you 87 hammers and 0 commerce in this 10 turn period.

1 hammer is more valuable than 1 commerce. I could have used a village instead of a workshop in the caste system situation to get more commerce and less hammers. It would have resulted in 57 hammers and 30 commerce and 10 food growth.

So in this theoretical situation, caste system perform better. The reason is because the city is already quite large and thus requires quite a lot of food to regrow. So the food-hammer conversion created by poprushing isn't that great. At lower city sizes, slavery will be more efficient than in this situation and at higher city sizes, it will be less efficient. We did use an ideal regrowth scenario for the poprushing situation.

Caste system also has the unlimited scientists, merchants and artists advantage. This can be used to easily get some great person farms in high food cities.

As said before in this thread, caste system combines nicely with state property because both civics improve the workshop, making it a very powerful terrain improvement. A late game state property/caste system grassland workshop gives 2 food and 4 hammers, a plains workshop 1 food and 5 hammers.

While some discussion about caste system versus slavery is very interesting, I really started this thread to get a formula describing the unhappiness created by the emancipation civic. Can anyone help me with that?

Feel free to discuss this, and to correct or elaborate on what's been said there.

 

[madscientist]

I tend not to read posts such as this, breaking hammers/production per turn into numbers, almost every game I play is situational. One thing not mentioned (I think) is that civic costs are the same for both in BTS where slavery was cheaper in warlords. In BTS I tend to switch to caste system more than I did in warlords since they cost the same and I can run merchants as I need rather than have to build expensive markets/grocers (I usually build these if I need health/happiness, have a shrine in that city, or wait until I have factories/power plants).

 

[Roland Johansen]

You can look at it in a simplified way (not completely accurate but close):

When you poprush one citizen at size 10, then it takes 20 food to regrow (normal speed, with granary) and you get 30 hammers. So the food-> hammer conversion is 1.5 hammers for every food.

When you change a farm that was used for poprushing into a workshop, then you lose 2 food and gain 3 hammers (with guilds and caste system, before biology, state property and chemistry). The conversion factor is again 1.5 hammers for every food.

At city sizes below 10, the food to hammer conversion for slavery is better, at city sizes above 10, the food to hammer conversion for slavery is worse.

 

[madscientist]

You can look at it in a simplified way (not completely accurate but close):

When you poprush one citizen at size 10, then it takes 20 food to regrow (normal speed, with granary) and you get 30 hammers. So the food-> hammer conversion is 1.5 hammers for every food.

When you change a farm that was used for poprushing into a workshop, then you lose 2 food and gain 3 hammers (with guilds and caste system, before biology, state property and chemistry). The conversion factor is again 1.5 hammers for every food.

At city sizes below 10, the food to hammer conversion for slavery is better, at city sizes above 10, the food to hammer conversion for slavery is worse.

OK, now I can deal with that!!!

 

[futurehermit]

So, slavery before size 10 and caste system after size 10. Works for me.

 

[darrelljs]

Nice post Roland .

A grassland workshop will produce 1 food, 3 hammers in this civic.

Which is the same as a grassland mine. Mutineer (I think it was him, but I can't find the post) did a fairly simple analysis some time ago that showed a grassland mine was the second best non-resource production tile in the early game because of the one food (floodplains farm was best), so your conclusion doesn't surprise me. I think slavery is still the overall better civic, even with the same upkeep, the threat of slave revlots, and the inability to assign unlimited specialists simply because a) it is useful in cities where you can't build workshops, b) it is effective long before the discovery of Guilds, c) its more effective at lower happy caps. I do think the break even point is lower than size 10 though, because you do have 10 turns to regrow the population so you a working one less tile (your initial example supports this).

This actually makes SE more viable for non-spiritual leaders, as you have less of a need to pop into slavery and whip off excess population when you get later in the game.

Darrell

 

[Roland Johansen]

I do think the break even point is lower than size 10 though, because you do have 10 turns to regrow the population so you a working one less tile (your initial example supports this).

I agree, it was a simplification. The break even point will often be at a lower city size although it depends on the city.

I'm comparing what a farm does for slavery to what a workshop does for caste system because a farm is the best 'production' tile in slavery and a workshop is the best production tile in caste system (on flatlands). What actually happens is that the citizens that are being whipped in slavery are set to work on workshops in caste system.

I disregarded the not worked tile(s) which means that the situation is actually more in favour of caste system and the break even point is before size 10.

The example I gave actually shows best what happens and it also shows that with a happy cap of 12, the situation is already significantly in favour of caste system.

Personally, I think I will mostly switch to caste system when guilds has been invented. The happiness cap and healthiness cap should be high enough by then. You also should have some workers to build some workshops or change some farms into workshops as most of the early tile improvements should be finished by then.

 

[Percy]

Very interesting contributions Roland, thanks again.

I'd like to ask you this: what about the fact that with Slavery, generally (i think, at least that's what i do), you want to grow one or two pop higher than your happiness cap, to be able to whip bigger buildings. This is particularly true for food powerhouses, where you:
1) grow much faster than the time it takes for the whip unhappiness to disappear.
2) can still grow the city even with unhappy citizens.

Essentially, this means that you also put unhappy citizens to work, which is impossible using any other way (unless i'm mistaken).

Is there a problem with my reasoning, am i forgetting something? Thanks.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Very interesting contributions Roland, thanks again.

I'd like to ask you this: what about the fact that with Slavery, generally (i think, at least that's what i do), you want to grow one or two pop higher than your happiness cap, to be able to whip bigger buildings. This is particularly true for food powerhouses, where you:
1) grow much faster than the time it takes for the whip unhappiness to disappear.
2) can still grow the city even with unhappy citizens.

Essentially, this means that you also put unhappy citizens to work, which is impossible using any other way (unless i'm mistaken).

Is there a problem with my reasoning, am i forgetting something? Thanks.

Hmm, I actually (almost) never do that. It's not very efficient to let your city grow above the happy cap. The unhappy citizen is still using 2 food per turn while not contributing anything. That's a waste of resources. But maybe sometimes it is the only way to get a pricey building poprushed.

I also seldom poprush anything that costs more than 3 citizens because you either have to let your city grow above the happy cap or you'll be far below the happy cap for some time, losing many resources that those citizens were acquiring. It's also seldom needed to use more than 3 citizens to poprush a building.

A market costs 150 hammers. With a forge and the production bonus of the organized religion civic, 3 poprushed citizen provide 135 hammers, almost enough to get the market. A few hammers in the building and you can poprush it for 3 citizens.

The only city that has extreme poprushing is my Great Person Farm with the Globe Theater. That city will grow very quickly and do 4-5 citizen poprushings regularly. My cities will either aim at great person production or I will try not to create too much food production in them. Using workshops and mines can help to slow the food production while seriously increasing production in the city.

I almost never used caste system before BTS, but now I will switch to it regularly and that offers the opportunity to change such a heavy food city into a great person farm long before you have the buildings that would enable the specialists. You can also build many workshops around such a city to produce stuff.

A heavy food city is never a bad thing, but you don't need many of them. 1 or 2, maybe 3 (on a big map) for great person production is enough for me and I usually have to work a little to get a really huge food production in a city. It's not that most of the cities have 3 or 4 food resources.

 

[Percy]

Hmm, I actually (almost) never do that. It's not very efficient to let your city grow above the happy cap. The unhappy citizen is still using 2 food per turn while not contributing anything. That's a waste of resources.

You're right, obviously. It's just the way i instinctively do it, that's why i created this thread, so that competent people could help the worthless player i am =P

Two reasons why i figured it wasn't that bad:
- in the end, you're doing nothing more or less than converting food to hammers, only the conversion rate suddenly got much worse.
- if you whip at the happy cap and your city grows a lot of food, you are quickly up to the cap again, and you don't necessarily have good production tiles to switch to if you want to halt grow. So i figured i might as well keep growing the city instead of switching from my 5f 3c fish to a 2f 1h forest. Once again, maybe it is a stupid thing to do =)

 

[futurehermit]

It's ok to grow into unhappiness to whip something that is expensive but needed sooner than later. For example, I will do this with the forbidden palace.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

You're right, obviously. It's just the way i instinctively do it, that's why i created this thread, so that competent people could help the worthless player i am =P

Two reasons why i figured it wasn't that bad:
- in the end, you're doing nothing more or less than converting food to hammers, only the conversion rate suddenly got much worse.
- if you whip at the happy cap and your city grows a lot of food, you are quickly up to the cap again, and you don't necessarily have good production tiles to switch to if you want to halt grow. So i figured i might as well keep growing the city instead of switching from my 5f 3c fish to a 2f 1h forest. Once again, maybe it is a stupid thing to do =)

Well, supporting an angry citizen is almost the same as changing from a 5F/3C fish to a 3F/3C fish. That doesn't strike me as a good idea, if any of the alternatives are reasonable.

Alternatives to feeding angry citizens:
1) train workers
2) train settlers
3) hire specialists/switch to high yield food deficit tiles.

I will concede that in most cases the 3F/3C fish is still better than working an unimproved anything just to avoid growing.

 

[Roland Johansen]

You're right, obviously. It's just the way i instinctively do it, that's why i created this thread, so that competent people could help the worthless player i am =P

Two reasons why i figured it wasn't that bad:
- in the end, you're doing nothing more or less than converting food to hammers, only the conversion rate suddenly got much worse.
- if you whip at the happy cap and your city grows a lot of food, you are quickly up to the cap again, and you don't necessarily have good production tiles to switch to if you want to halt grow. So i figured i might as well keep growing the city instead of switching from my 5f 3c fish to a 2f 1h forest. Once again, maybe it is a stupid thing to do =)

The reason why I seldom grow above the happy cap is because it results in a less efficient conversion of food into hammers. But sometimes you have to because there are no better options. It is wise to try to improve different tiles so that you have the option to use high production, low food tiles when needed.

You should surely use the 5f, 3c fish before you start using the 2f, 1h tile, but you clearly know that because otherwise you wouldn't have put it that way.

Usually it is more efficient to whip settlers and workers than to produce workers and settlers with food, but if you're getting too much unhappiness from poprushing, then it's surely not a bad thing to use the huge food output of such a city for the production of settlers and workers while the unhappiness from rushing decreases.

It is also best to do big poprushes in a city with a huge food output so that it takes a while to regrow up to the happy and health cap. But a city of size 6 can already do a 3 citizen poprush, so it is seldom needed to go over the happy cap to

Later in the game, a city with such a huge food output could become a great person farm.

It's ok to grow into unhappiness to whip something that is expensive but needed sooner than later. For example, I will do this with the forbidden palace.

Great wonders and national wonders have a production penalty when rushed. The forbidden palace for instance only gets 20 hammers from each poprushed citizen instead of 30 (normal speed). It can be efficient to poprush something else at such a moment that you get a huge hammer overflow into the forbidden palace. Production overflow doesn't get the production penalty and will give you a nice start on a wonder.

But you're right that it is worth it to poprush something in an inefficient way if the benefits of the item are great.

 

[vicawoo]

First, workshops come mid game with metal casting, and don't get +3 resources for a long time (chemistry and something). Their base is -1F +1P

Before I get libraries, sometimes my 3 food resource city just grows to one or two unhappy faces. If I have mines, I'll use them, but if I don't, might as well use it for my oracle.
Forges and organized religion are a little hard to come by, unless I'm industrious for forges or I have alphabet for organized religion.

 

[Bjorn190]

With the IND trait u get 30 hammers Whiiiip lool!

 

[Harbourboy]

It's situational, as someone else mentioned.

Try getting a cultural victory on Deity level without running Caste System and you'll see an example of one situation where that civic is gold, no matter what size your cities are.

 

[Percy]

Well, according to the post i quoted, it is much more than situational. I mean, i could have guessed by myself that running unlimited artists was better to win a cultural victory than whipping military units =P

 

[Tzu Iop]

In practice a workshop with guilds and castesystem transforms a flat land tile into a mined hill yieldwise.

Actually castesystem fits perfectly in my playstyle of having 2 to 4 GP-Farms which are fully assigned with scientists. Setteling all GS in the Oxfordcity and the other cities are specialised for production, cranking out units.