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Casus belli/Justified wars

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by CaptainUnknown, May 27, 2016.

  1. Gali

    Gali Prince

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    War weariness has already been mentioned so that is back in. Casus Belli will at least help make defensive pacts more palatable. I am pretty darn sure they will be justified significantly reducing the warmonger hit from them and making them useful. Pledges could be useful. If the modding tools are for real this could be an amazing system.

    If they also weight warmonger depending on relation and agenda this system could surpass the civ 4 system. It seems that agenda is in. Roosevelt is said to not mind wars on other continents but be super sensitive to local aggression. I find the civ 5 system to be not nearly the step down many people say. 4 was dominated by religion and then just trading with your partners. If warmonger is decreased for civs who denounced or are at war with the civ you attack that would really help the system. Increase warmonger with those civs that have declarations of friendship. With the civ 5 liberation trade and bribe system that would be a the best diplomacy ever. Especially since we can't use relations to pillage the Ai for tech.
     
  2. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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  3. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    With Casus Belli system it's important to pick which events cause it and which (most) don't - otherwise player will be allowed to declare war to nearly everyone at nearly anytime, so the system will loose it's value.
     
  4. rastak

    rastak Emperor

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    That sounds Paradox like.....I agree with you.
     
  5. poom3619

    poom3619 Ping Pang Poom!

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    Well, I think you should declare war without one (at the time they become relevant), but you'll get hate from other civ, and you can fabricate one. But it use resource to do it.

    I wonder if there should be internal penalty to your empire if you declare unjustified war. Say, if there are only me and another civ in an island. Should I got stability hit if I invade them at Renaissance?
     
  6. rastak

    rastak Emperor

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    I hate fabricate. You either have a real reason or you don't.....just my opinion.
     
  7. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

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    Fabricating reasons for war is part of history. Thus it should be in.
     
  8. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    War weariness is back in which is excellent. No more 1,000 year wars. :)
    I really like having to justify wars in CIV VI. No more psycotic AI declaring war for no reason, hopefully.

    Fabricating wars is certainly historical. Just look at the USA in the 20th century. WWI, Vietnam, Panama, etc. Perhaps with espionage in the later game it could be added.
     
  9. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Fabricating reasons are historical, but that's not a reason for them to be in game. You can't put the whole history in the game.
     
  10. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Well, I never said they should be in the game. However, I think later in the game when supposedly wars will be rarer according to Ed Beach, it might spice things up. :)

    On the other hand, the AI might go crazy with it and drive people bonkers. :(
     
  11. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Fabricated reasons are too gamey. It's like you press a button and whether you have successfully fabricated casus belli or not. No actions from the other side of the conflict. It's like a surprise war, just without penalties. I don't think anything like this shoul be in game.

    Justified war mechanic should fuel diplomacy, not screw it.
     
  12. Felis Renidens

    Felis Renidens Prince

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    I suppose you can "fabricate" by bribing a friendly civ to declare war and then join them, denouncing with no reason maybe. Doing something they hate so that they denounce\declare on you (especially if you've discovered their secret agenda). maybe espionage and city states politics will be able to help you - but I think the best way is doing something they "secretly" hate.
     
  13. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

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    Fabricated excuses to declare a war comes at a cost of your dirty secrets being discovered an lose reputation in eyes of other civilizations. Because they found out that you lied about the true reason why you started this war and such.
     
  14. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    These 2 nearby posts are great:

    This mechanic is completely gamey. You have no interactions with other civs or other gameplay mechanic to do so. It's just instead of "surprise war" with its diplomatic penalties, you have random of whether you get low penalties of "justified war" or even higher penalties of "dirty secrets discovered". I can't see anything interesting in this additional button.

    This option, in contrast, is coupled deep with the rest of the diplomacy. You need to establish alliance first and you need to offer your ally something valuable in exchange for facing everyone's hate. Moreover, this option doesn't need any additional game mechanics or buttons to execute, it's based on 2 features which could be in already - first, what joining ally in war is considered justified war, second - ability to ask another civ to go to war.

    I'm not sure if the last feature is in (asking ally to go to war with another civ without joining yourself could be quite exploited mechanics as it was in early Civ games), but this way of thought is clearly the right direction.
     
  15. rastak

    rastak Emperor

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    I don't believe they would ever make a design decision based on that. What I don't want is a "fabricate reason" button you press and you are good to go. It would be more interesting to me if you actually had to have a real reason.
     
  16. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    I like the idea of a fabricated claim, but only if there is potentially some way to reveal it and expose it through espionage.

    So that initially the aggressor gets a justified warmonger penalty, but then a spy reveals the dodge (with the option to expose or ignore) and exposes it to the world causing the warmonger hate to step up to surprise war levels.
     
  17. Felis Renidens

    Felis Renidens Prince

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    I think the thing is that warmonger penalty works mainly with the AI. They will probably spy on you, so what's the use? You may "share intrigue" but that's a bit weak.

    And you don't need it. You just need to know their secret agenda and work against it and they'll do your work for you - either denouncing you or attacking you. And it's a "secret" so you will be justified saying "I was just building a few ships and got attacked out of the blue" - justified war. Nobody will ask why you invested in siege weapons before building those ships.
     
  18. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    I think all they need is a system to measure how much of an potensial threat/agressor someone is.

    If you go to war against a civ who's a big possible threat (ex big advanced military and expansionist), while your threat ranking is significantly lower then you can go to war and weaken them without much of a penalty, but if you keep taking their cities after they have been reduced to non-threat, and you keep becoming more powerful due to conquest, they YOU have become the threat and others will start turning hostile.

    a threat asessment system should be much easier to implement than some intelligent system for deciding if a war was justified or not.
     
  19. Felis Renidens

    Felis Renidens Prince

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    I suppose it will be more along the lines that a war can be justified until you capture the first city, second on good conditions, might get some more breathing room if you liberate a city. Better (from diplomatic perspective) to park your units around their capital and see what they are ready to give in exchange for peace.
     
  20. Minor Annoyance

    Minor Annoyance Deity

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    Don't forget pillaging! Buildings outside of the city center means you can do a lot of infrastructure damage without ever taking a city.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
     

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