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Catalonia to vote on independence 9/11/2014

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by JohannaK, Dec 14, 2013.

  1. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    That is the 9th November to 'Muricans. :p

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-vows-to-block-Catalan-independence-vote.html

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25353086

    http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/12/world/europe/spain-catalonia-vote/

    There is even a brief (and quite incomplete) wiki article, which is nevertheless useful to see how things are in general.

    As it stands, the current issues are on the legality of the referendum itself. According to the Spanish Constitution, only the central government can call for one. The Catalan Parliament will soon approve a proposition to ask the Congress to transfer that power over to the Generalitat (Catalan government) according to article 150.2 of the Constitution, iirc.

    However, it is known and held for sure that such request will be denied by the Congress in Madrid. Meanwhile, everyone there still talks of "President Mas" and "Catalan parties" leading the Catalan people down a way with no exit, while President Mas is simply fulfilling an electoral promise that is very much to the satisfaction of his voters and most of the people in Catalonia as a whole, if the last election results are anything to go by. Something really funny is that a Madrid newspaper held a poll asking if the voters would be in favour of prohibiting the referendum from being held, and when 60% of the votes were for 'No', they changed "prohibit" for "permit".

    Is it that the politicians in Madrid are going against the wishes of the very same people they claim to defend and protect? Shouldn't the referendum be held? Shouldn't the Constitution be changed if necessary the very same way they did it (fast and quiet) when Europe imposed a deficit ceiling? Isn't the purpose of a democracy to make governance closer to what the people want and think?
     
  2. eduhum

    eduhum Aahh the gold old days...

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    All of this was field back in days
    A few complementary clarifications:

    -It would be merely a consult, which has no legal consequences. It would be used then, if a yes won, to use it as legitimacy. Which is fine, I guess..

    -This consult is never going to happen, really. The central government must approve it, and Rajoy has clearly stated that he won't let that. He is really doing a favor to Mas, letting become some sort of martyr while if he did approve the consult, Mas would probably be radicalized because in the end, everybody knows that the no is going to win.
    I'm catalan btw, and because of my social status I have had access to the upper classes many times, who control all the info and schemes. What I say here is not just my opinion.
     
  3. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    November 2014?

    Not sure if by then things will be as ""stable"" as they currently are.
     
  4. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    As long as you don't explicitly say names, yes you are expressing solely your opinion. Or such is the perception of others. Kind of what happens when one plagiarises successfully.

    Rajoy is foolishly fueling the 'Yes' by saying 'No'. If need be, there will be these plebiscitary elections. Don't you worry, consultation will be achieved one way or another.

    It is most telling that one of seven Fathers of the Constitution (and is Solé Tura was alive, most probably 2/7) is against the interpretation that is being made.

    I am okay with people saying "No, I don't want an independent Catalonia", but I'm quite irritated by people who deny the possibility of consulting the people of Catalonia. In fact this appears to reflect more a belief that the 'Yes' will win rather than the 'No'. Why in hell not held a consultation if the option you want is the one that is going to win?

    Everyone talks of dialogue and bridges built and destroyed, but I think differently. I think the bridges are there, they've always been there and they haven't moved an inch. The only ones who ever cross it, however, are the Catalans. So they (the politicians who cross the bridge) have grown tired of it and for once they have decided not to cross it, to wait for the Spanish politicians to cross it instead for once.
     
  5. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Unilateral declaration of independence, with referendum or without, won't hold unless backed by real power. So unless the Catalans are ready to start another civil war, they should calm down and be rational.
     
  6. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    What does that mean? What is irrational is to try to talk. Someone said once that folly is to repeatedly do something expecting a different result.
     
  7. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    The only way to secede is to make the rest of Spain agree with it. Czechoslovakia split up this way and it was amiable and absolutely peaceful.

    On the other hand, trying to separate against the express wishes of the rest of the country invites the possibility of civil war. If Catalonia declares independence unilaterally and the Spanish troops then occupy the region, dissolve its government and annul the proclamation, what will you do then? Terrorism? Suicide bombers? How far are you willing to go for the illusion of "independence"?
     
  8. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    Hah, dear, what an ideal view you hold of politics. The only way to secede is to make the politicians in Madrid agree to it. Huge difference. Do you know what the rest of Spain thinks? I certainly don't, and I bet no politician in Madrid does either. Spanish politicians mostly assume they know what the people want rather than find out what it is.

    I would presume that military intervention isn't going to happen, that if it did and the international community did nothing about it, we'd go to Strasbourg or The Hague.
     
  9. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    If Spain economically depends on it, I doubt Spanish parliament will let it go voluntarily. And unlike us Dutch, you are contigious with the rest of Spain, so it won't be as hard for Spain to reconquer you as with the Netherlands (and Spain still managed to hold present-day Belgium until its conquest by the Austrians).

    We also know from Palestine how well a few empty verdicts work: Spain is engaged in illegal occupation - bang! - the Spanish willl magically dissappear from Catalonia!

    I never understood why anyone would want to secede from what is a fundamentally democratic country. Except for Scotland, considering the UK's horrible EU policy.
     
  10. Josu

    Josu Emperor

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    Oh, I guess that an unilateral unionism is absolutelly much better
     
  11. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Spain is a democratic state. This is not just the conservatives opposing Catalan independence; even the socialists are against it. So, the two largest parties in Spain representing the majority of the electorate oppose the referendum. It can't be much clearer.

    OK, so you go to courts which have no authority to decide in these matters. Maybe ECHR will penalize Spain for sending troops in Catalonia in order to protect the Spanish constitution. Spain will shrug and pay the fine. Then what?

    Don't count on the "international community" to back you up, because literally nobody cares. From my point of view it's one of those petty separatists movements which is based solely on ambitions of a few local politicians who want their own sandbox to play at. (Kind of like Slovakia... :mischief: ).

    And stop this whining about democracy. Democracy doesn't mean "vote on everything". Democracy means clear rules based on a liberal constitution and regular elections to ensure political pluralism. Catalonia ignoring the constitution by declaring an illegal referendum isn't democracy. It's as if a bunch of 1% billionaires had a referendum on whether they want to pay taxes or not. Preposterous.
     
  12. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    Well, until you read my posts I don't think this will be going anywhere.
     
  13. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    Well, what counterpoints are to be made? sPain sucking you dry? sPain depriving you of basic civil rights? sPain massacring Catalans?

    Being a relatively prosperous province in comparison to the rest is NOT an argument for a secession. As Winner pointed out, that's like giving billionaires the choice of whether or not they should pay taxes. Thanks a lot!
     
  14. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    West Sahara is part of Spain :mad:
     
  15. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    Spanish politicians generally don't give a damn what voters want. Spain is barely more democratic than in 1898, and we are tired of being hated and forced to stay by the people who so loudly hate us.

    That is our argument, our drive for secession. In the minds of Madrid politicians, apparently Catalan=Nazi+Jew+Mason+Communist (probably)+everything that ever had a negative connotation ever. You clearly see how this proposition is contradictory, right? In any case the point is that Spanish politicians (some other people too, I'm sure) know and acknowledge that Catalans are different. Most hate Catalans for it and still deny Catalans a right to decide or to be asked out of some misplaced sense of national pride and heroism which leads them to think that somehow someday Catalans will magically be not-Catalans.

    Ironically, Catalonia is quite fundamental to Spain. Not only does it account for a fifth of the country's wealth, but policies against Catalonia have a huge return in the form of votes elsewhere in Spain. I mean, imagine a Spain without Catalonia. It'd be burning on all four sides in protest for poverty and corruption.

    I have always been one for a proper federal constituency, but it is unrealistic. For 150 years it has been proven a failure repeatedly. thus, independence is the way I see myself forced to support not by some kind of indoctrination but by the actions of the very same government that opposes this independence.

    To address that economic point of yours, it is only coincidental, and if economy takes the stage is because some arguments against secession have been "You won't be able to pay pensions" and similarly ridiculous stuff.
     
  16. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Cool story, bro :popcorn:
     
  17. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    I find it hard to believe myself. Then I watch the news. :)
     
  18. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    "The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers."
    ~Thomas Jefferson
     
  19. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    What a nice ad hominem you got there.
     
  20. gangleri2001

    gangleri2001 Garbage day!!!

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    There was a time in which such threads were supposed to be opened by me :old:
     

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