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Catalonia to vote on independence 9/11/2014

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by JohannaK, Dec 14, 2013.

  1. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    I do not think it is a good thing to compare Spain with the US.
    Any European nation, from the worst to the best will score better on citizens violence, social security, private dignity, and all those "soft" human values.
    Spain has also little to no interaction with the US, neither as state or individuals.

    I think the best countries to compare, to benchmark in reasonable terms, are France and Italy.
    EDIT
    and Portugal
     
  2. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Well the press in these countries, at least the publication I follow, has not been nearly as critical of Spanish dealing with the crisis as the Anglo-American one. We cannot forget that Spain was dealing with an insurrection from a regional government. This is not your regular case of civil disobedience.

    Also the Guardianistas seem to overlook that their own governments have firmly and unconditionally stood behind Spain.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  3. Prima Italia

    Prima Italia Chieftain

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    Carles Puigdemont and four ministers that fled to Belgium have turned themselves over to the Belgium police according to Belgium prosectors. A judge will decide whether to execute the European Arrest Warrent by Monday morning.
     
  4. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    Agree to some degree. They, the anglospheric, are certainly more outspoken in statements. And the arguments being used of a logic and nature that only partially allign with European values.
    I must say I really resent it that this Americanising, sheer by the loudness of the "socalled" International press is so anglospheric colored.

    The issue is that typical continental European press is not that outspoken, much more fitting cultural context, between de lines to read.
    That pushes European press statements a bit asides, but also (that's why I said "to some degree), they will not come with such strong polarising articles as the anglospheric press.

    It is no wonder that both the UK as the US are by now worldchampion in being polarised.
    That's what you get from that (press) culture.
    Every coin has two sides.

    EDIT
    I am aware that the European press is less supportive in general to the acute situation.
    But so be it imo.
    I prefer solutions where the family sticks together. Not polarised. And between the lines of European papers is a better decentralisation, and a better judicial allignment with truly European democratic values.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  5. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    Anti-catalanism is a deeply rooted tradition in Spain. Saying that while that isnt nice at least we aren't being crammed into ghettos or reservations is hardly a defence.
     
    gangleri2001 and Traitorfish like this.
  6. danjuno

    danjuno Emperor

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    So when the cop pulls you over for speeding, you're gonna say "you can't ticket me because you didn't ticket all those other people who were speeding!"? Might as well go full lelbertarian and start yelling "AM I BEING DETAINED? AM I BEING DETAINED?" at the top of your lungs.

    Spoiler nsfw language :

    @ 1:12
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  7. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    I don't get outraged about cops pulling other people over for speeding, though. Were you beaten up by Spanish police?
     
  8. danjuno

    danjuno Emperor

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    Congratulations on completely dodging the point! The point was that the actions of others do not justify your (or in this case Madrid's) behavior. "He did it too!" is the go-to line of argument for 10-year-olds.
     
  9. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    That's the thing, Madrid doesn't feel like it needs to justify the way it dealt with the insurrection of the Catalan government to people with huuuuuge glass ceilings.
     
  10. danjuno

    danjuno Emperor

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    So Madrid is using the same line of reasoning as a ten-year-old on the playground. Wonderful. Mind passing this onto Rajoy?
     
  11. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    The thing is that Spain is clearly still a "work in progress" regarding "how to be Spanish while not Castilian". That's a big part of the problem. That plus history, which for the 19th and 20th c clearly has been a story of how Spain came to be equated with Castile, especially in the way language denotes Spanishness. Wrong language — automatic problematic, second-tier "Spanishness".
     
    Arwon and JohannaK like this.
  12. Prima Italia

    Prima Italia Chieftain

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    Carme Forcadell arrived at the Spanish Supreme Court and told the judge that she fully accepts the authority of Article 155 and that the declaration of independence was only symbolic. Spanish prosecutors have asked for jail for Forcadell for charges of rebellion, sedition and embezzlement.
     
  13. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    I mean can anyone deny it? On that first weekend there was a chance that there was a Republic to defend, but all along it was a proteat against Madrid going ahead with 155 anyway.
     
  14. Gen.Mannerheim

    Gen.Mannerheim Grand Moff

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    As much as I want to be sympathetic to Catalan nationalism, the sheer lack of "taking a stand" is really troubling.
     
  15. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    I find irritating that mindless knee-jerk reaction of being by default sympathetic with secessionist nationalist against loyalist nationalism.

    And maybe this lack of taking a stand is simply showing the lack of legitimacy of this whole secessionist debacle. Between a lack of actual oppression, the fact that a good half of the population didn't WANT such independence, the disregard of law by the people who tried to start it all, the attempt to drag the rest of the EU into their own personal feud and the feeling that all this was resting more on wanting to pay less taxes more than anything else, yeah it doesn't really sound like the martyr people being brutalized by an evil regime (save for the part where the police was excessively violent).
     
  16. danjuno

    danjuno Emperor

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    Not really, it just means the CEDP leadership were incompetent.

    No, half the population didn't vote. If you have some physic powers to differentiate between the unionists who boycotted the vote and people who just didn't care either way, by all means show us.
     
  17. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Correction : More than half of the people didn't participate in a vote considered illegal by their country's highest court.

    As for psychic powers, they're called every other poll taken on the subject.
     
  18. danjuno

    danjuno Emperor

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    Unionists have not been at 50% since June, and polling shows CS, PS, and PP well below 50% for december.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  19. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    I don't know if they're a majority, but there's no proof they're a minority either. Certainly not a small enough minority that secession could be justified.

    At any rate, here are some news : the evil, fascist Rajoy is doing all he can to make sure all the jailed Catalan secessionists are freed and able to campaign for the December elections. He even wants Puigdemont to be able to return to Spain and campaign freely, from outside prison. Such a Nazi. How can the EU and the world stay quiet on the face of this horrible, horrible oppression?
     
  20. danjuno

    danjuno Emperor

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    So Rajoy is learning. Good. Maybe he'll even end a decade of stonewalling further progress within the system.
     
    AdrienIer likes this.

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