1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Catalonia to vote on independence 9/11/2014

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by JohannaK, Dec 14, 2013.

  1. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    15,649
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Heart of Etheria
    There is a clear way of measuring majorities and minorities. It's called voting. When it has been an election, pro-referendum parties have won clear majorities. When there has been a direct vote, independence has won uncontestably.
     
  2. danjuno

    danjuno Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,935
    Gender:
    Male
    In any event, the Republic Left of Catalonia is on track to be the biggest party in the December election.
     
  3. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    20,544
    This may come as a surprise for you, but Spain is no longer an absolute monarchy, and at any rate Rajoy is not the monarch. The "stonewalling" of Catalan secession was done by Spanish institutions, in accordance to democratic law and procedure.
     
  4. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    20,544
    Ironically, oppressive Spain has allowed the Catalan secessionist elites that control the regional political machine to build an extremely biased system that severely under represents Barcelona in favor or more pro-secession regions. Indeed, Barcelona has 14 fewer seats than it should have if in Catalonia all votes were equal. And if all votes were equal, there would have been no secessionist majority last time around to begin with. So secessionists only had the large majority they did because they stacked the odds heavily in their favor.

    As we can see, even voting is not that simple. Reality is always more complicated.
     
  5. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    15,649
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Heart of Etheria
    What is the relevance of this?
     
  6. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    20,544
    You're kidding, right?

    Catalan secessionists' whole case for legitimacy is that the "will of the majority of Catalans" should be respected, yet the political system built by Catalan secessionists was deliberately created not to reflect the will of the majority. Indeed, if we look at votes cast and not representatives elected, there would be no secessionist majority to declare independence to begin with. Same with the polls right now: all indicate that collectively the parties opposed to secession will have more votes, but because of the undemocratic Catalan system the secessionists could well end up with a majority again.
     
  7. danjuno

    danjuno Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,935
    Gender:
    Male
    This may come as a surprise to you but, Rajoy is the head of government. And this will definitely come as a surprise to you, but you don't need absolute power to block meaningful change within a democratic system. By progress I was referring to any form of increased autonomy, not just unilateral succession. Madrid has blocked any and all concessions to the Catalans for ten years. If you use "democracy" and "rule of law" to block avenues of legal change, expect people to resort to illegal means of change. Rajoy can either accept increased autonomy and localization, or he can continue to behave as he and his predecessors have and set the stage for another crisis.
     
  8. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    20,544
    Continuing with surprises for you, Rajoy has been the head of government for 6 years. He is not President for life and does not have unchecked powers. Catalonia is not independent because an enormous majority of Spaniards does not want it to be independent. Rajoy or no Rajoy this would still be the case. Not even a majority of Catalans want to be independent.
     
  9. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    15,649
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Heart of Etheria
    I still dont know how you can know that. Nobody knows that.
     
  10. danjuno

    danjuno Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,935
    Gender:
    Male
    He does not need unlimited powers, as Prime Minister the leader of the government and the ruling party, he has enormous sway on policy. But nice strawman.

    Try paying attention to what I'm actually writing.

    He said I was foolish for believing that the sucession had even a tiny chance of succeding. Like, even a 0.00000000001% chance. Evidently he knows how every alternate history ever would play out.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  11. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    13,473
    Sometimes Luiz seems to be Rajoy's alter ego, what with repeating that " a majority of Catalans do not want to be independent". See no need for a referendum, we have in on the authority of the caudillo and can trust his assessment right?

    Hell Luis, even your other pet peeve Venezuela keeps holding elections. The opposition wanted their recall and constitutional referendums, they got them. But Catalans must not have a referendum. I take note of how opportunistically democratic some people are.

    On the other hand, it is quite evident that few (any?) catalans are willing to go "as far as it takes" to get independence. So do they really want to be independent? Put that way it can be a legitimate to say no.
     
  12. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    61,826
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Maybe Spain needs a Pinochet ^^
     
  13. ori

    ori Repair Guy Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2005
    Messages:
    16,561
    Location:
    Baden-Württemberg, Germany
    Moderator Action: this is a reminder to not discuss other users rather than their posts - and refrain from trolling while doing so.
     
  14. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    20,544
    Maybe Greece needs one.
     
  15. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    20,544
    Elections without proper guarantees matter very little. Like those in Venezuela, whose legitimacy is now close to those of Saddam's Iraq.

    And Catalans were never denied elections. They will have new elections in December. Evil Spain has not even changed the electoral rules that give the secessionists a huge (and completely undemocratic) advantage. In Catalonia, not all votes are equal. And this is the work of the Generalitat, not of evil fascist emperor / président for life Rajoy.

    When I say most Catalans don't want independence, it's because time and again most votes are actually cast to parties that oppose independence. That's how we know the majority.
     
  16. AdrienIer

    AdrienIer Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    3,399
    Location:
    Paris
    The Spanish general election isn't very democratic either, it's based on a system that is also skewed in favor of the countryside and against the major cities (hence why Podemos, while getting almost as many votes as the PSOE in 2016, got 14 fewer seats). It's not a Catalan only problem.
     
  17. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    15,649
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Heart of Etheria
    The Catalan system is the Spanish system. Catalonia does not have its own electoral law (although it can have one). This is because one of the big parties draws its strength from the country and medium cities, while the other big party draws it from Barcelona metropolitan area, and they never came to a compromise. Therefore the Spanish law applies. It is also how a party can have an absolute majority with 30% of the vote (like Rajoy's first government). In the Catalan case, with fewer circumscriptions and higher baseline representatives, these flaws are less acute although of course still present. Independence parties with 47.8% of the vote have 54% of the seats, which is not terribly disproportionate when some % of the votes goes fo abstention and parties who didnt make it fo tge parliament.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
  18. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    20,544
    Catalonia has its own electoral formula (in fact it has several unless I'm mistaken). And curiously it always benefits the pro secession parties.

    Last time around the total of votes cast on parties that oppose secession was bigger than to those who support secession, and yet secessionists got a solid majority. Fine, just don't claim secession is the "will of the majority".
     
  19. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2001
    Messages:
    13,523
    Location:
    Facing my computer.
    This certainly didn't prevent the secessionist to attempt to get their independence. Funny how it's still considered a noble struggle against oppression (even if we "forget" that the whole rest of Spain is also pretty much involved in the whole thing and is still completely ignored by the secessionists).
    Seems that having the legitimacy from the people only matters when it's going your way.
     
  20. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

    Joined:
    May 17, 2004
    Messages:
    10,002
    Location:
    Sweden / France
    Does Madrid sufficiently represent Catalonia? That's about the size of the problem. "Yes", says Madrid of course. What Catalonia might say is a little unclear, since Madrid has decreed it can't ask that...
     

Share This Page