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Catalonia to vote on independence 9/11/2014

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by JohannaK, Dec 14, 2013.

  1. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    No. It does not. Stop lying to my face.
     
  2. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    I'm not "lying" , as I said I'm not sure exactly how Catalonia chose its formula, which apparently is a variation of d'Hondt. Anyway, the key takeaway was that secessionists did not win most votes. They got less votes than non secessionists.
     
  3. AdrienIer

    AdrienIer Deity

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    Mmmm actually JxSi (39.59%) + CUP (8.21%) makes for 47.8%, and the Catalan branch of Podemos (pro-self determination, AFAIK neither for nor against independence) got 8.94%. There were also 0.53% blank ballots. So at most there were 42.73% votes for anti-secessionists.

    Which means self determination received more than 50% of the votes (even including the blank ballots) and pro-secession received more votes than anti-secession.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_regional_election,_2015
     
  4. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    No, you're counting wrong. Podemos is against independence, even though they support a referendum. But they are against independence, just look how they voted.

    So anti secessionists got more votes. And that's that.
     
  5. uppi

    uppi Deity

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    If we're counting votes, we also have to consider the 2.5% that voted for unio.cat, which is also a secessionist party.
    47.8% + 2.5% = 50.3% = outright majority.

    Your statement is a clear lie.
     
  6. uppi

    uppi Deity

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    I counted those. Non-secessionist parties (and I am being generous here, some of those parties that got less than 2% might be secessionist) got around 49.2%. Please do some simple additions before you accuse others of lying.
     
  7. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Sorry, I knew you were lying (because I had already counted the votes and read multiple articles on how secessionists got less votes) but I got the reason wrong as I typed on a hurry, which is why I deleted the post.

    In fact your lie is much clearer and more abject than simple bad arithmetic. Unio.cat is not a secessionist party, in fact it broke away with CDC exactly because it does not support independence without the consent of Spain. That's why they also left the government of the Generalitat. So they are against the unilateral declaration of independence, or secession. They may not be counted as anti-secession, but they aren't pro either. Their whole reason of existence is the fact they opposed this illegal independence drive. To count them together with the secessionists, when they only exist due to their opposition to secession, is pathetic. Which makes you a liar.
     
  8. AdrienIer

    AdrienIer Deity

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    Wait you're counting a pro independence but anti-unilateral independence in the anti independence side ?
     
  9. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    No, I was not counting them at all. But if they are to be counted, they were against the declaration of independence, and this is the topic of this discussion. Counting a party that only exists because it opposed the independence attempt together with the secessionists is more than an oversight, it's an objective lie.

    A negotiated independence with the consent of Spain is a whole other matter. I certainly would have nothing against that.

    So let's be clear : more votes were cast on parties against the declaration of independence than for it. No debate. Yet the Generalitat and its apologists dare claim to speak for a majority of Catalans and when they push their illegal secession.
     
  10. AdrienIer

    AdrienIer Deity

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    You're trying to nitpick. More votes (forming a majority of all voters) were cast for independentist parties, but by the slimest of margins more votes were cast for parties who don't want unilateral independence.
    To summarize, about 60% of votes were for pro-referendum parties, 50 something percent for pro-independence parties, and 47.8% (at least, I'm not counting the smaller parties) voted for parties that want unilateral independence if the referendum goes their way.

    At the start of this there was the question of what the Catalans want, using the 2015 election. And from that vote, we can see that the Catalans want their own state. That the PP and Ciudadamos are blocking any attempt at that makes it more complicated, sure, but this is on them not on the Catalans.
     
  11. ori

    ori Repair Guy Super Moderator

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    Moderator Action: The next user calling another a lier will get themself banned. If you cannot discuss the topic at hand in a civilized manner, then you are welcome to refrain from posting.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  12. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    No, I'm not nitpicking, you are. The topic of this thread is the illegal referendum and subsequent independence push. More Catalans voted for parties that oppose this independence push than to parties that support it. There was no popular mandate for the unilateral declaration of independence that Puigdemont launched. It is a minority position among voters and the only reason there was a (small) parliamentary majority for it is that the electoral system is heavily titled towards the secessionists.
     
  13. AdrienIer

    AdrienIer Deity

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    The topic of this thread is also the Spanish response to the situation, and Spain does not seem to realize that about half the Catalan population wants Catalonia to be a state of its own, and according to the 2015 election more than half.
     
  14. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    So, majority of Catalans support independence, but less than half of them are for immediate unilateral secession?
    Is that correct? Just wondering, don't want to spend time for own research.
     
  15. AdrienIer

    AdrienIer Deity

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    That's what the 2015 regional election results would suggest, but a lot has happened in 2 years so it will probably be better to wait for the December election to be sure.
     
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  16. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    If we take it that voting for a party which is explicitly pro-independence indicates support or at least sympathy for independence, then yes.

    But, Scotland is a warning, here- sometimes people will vote for an independentist party on the assumption that independence is implausible, that their platform is just symbolic, and they're really a regionalist party of whatever orientation. When it turns out that the party wasn't joking, and that independence is not only plausible but may indeed be probable, some of the voters will jump ship without a second thought.
     
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  17. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    In Catalonia case, this time has already come, it seems.
     
  18. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    The handling of this by the catalonian government certainly didn't help. But it also does seem that many (most?) catalonians don't even feel like actually losing any comfort at all to achieve independence, ie think that independence is about having more money. No, that is what being newly-rich is.
     
  19. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Yes, I had the same impression - that most Catalans aren't ready to do something about it, other than celebrating. When there's nothing to celebrate yet.
     
  20. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    About half want independence (as long as it has no actual cost to them) and half does not want independence. Spain has a duty to support and protect all Spanish citizens, including the millions of Catalans who do not want independence. No wonder they react as they did.

    As for those wondering why Catalans didn't actually resist in any meaningful way to the dissolution of the Generalitat, and why they don't take more direct action to achieve independence, the answer is obvious: they aren't really oppressed by Spain. They are prosperous and have loads of autonomy. Why would they risk it all in a some sort of uprising? If we want to understand this particular secession movement, we need to first understand this basic fact: there is no oppression, and there is already lots of autonomy. Hence anti-independence people, who see a threat of dissolution of their country, are much more willing to resist than pro-independence people, who are already doing quite nicely in the status-quo. Guess who wins.
     

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