Catapult-driven wars: Best UU?

[TheMeInTeam]

Skirmishers + Catapults without metals isn't pretty against relevant numbers of Horse Archers but a lot better than the alternatives.

You can play around the vulnerability simply by splitting up your stack. Skirmishers lack a hard counter so they don't suffer horribly for that, and they are cheap enough that you will have the numbers. Blocking any access routes for Horse Archers is doable on most maps and on the attack you will still do better hammer for hammer even without cats. Of they wipe out your blocking stack, you can pummel them with collateral in your turn. Sending Guerilla Skirmishers ahead and fortify next to your target is good practice anyway.

Skirmishers cost half as much as Horse Archers. Even alone on level terrain... first one dies, second one usually lives. Not pretty but still favourable.
If Skirmishers get to defend on hills, it's a slaughter and they function very well as replacement spearmen.

Skirmishers are not the best CATAPULT complement, even if they are one of the top UUs overall. The flanking damage is really severe, and even the crap AI is willing to give up a few mounted to cause it and force you to either a) stop to heal or b) lose more cats hitting a city. It's true if you can use hills for the initial invasion it works though.

The AI doesn't like attacking things like prats or elephants though, forcing them into cities where the collateral from catapults really makes a difference.

 

[Soirana]

Still, consider me surprised about the vocal support for the Ballista Elephant. Its advantages over regular ones does not seem big enough to justify it. Unless the intent was to state 'access to ivory is better than any single UU and no ivory'.

Yes, it was my intent. Honestly i do not think that either Hwachas or Baliista Jumbo's add much.

On others:
Skirmishers hammerwise good, but what about paying upkeep costs? I rather have one elpehant than three of these.

Praets - do not need cats honestly. You should be on rampage before concsruction and it is a question why you beelined it.

Hwachas... Yes cats draw swods on defense but do these babies? I mean wouldn't hwacha go against archer which [with full fortification and so on] would not be so hot?
After first two suicide cats type of defendings unit does not matter honestly as long as your attacker has good base strength.

HA/Keshiks- once again why you are dragging cats arround?

Gallics - depends on map. In something like global highlands surely.

So if we leave jumbos out i would go with vultures. High enough strength and less problems with axes... I would give mention to swords but jaguars sucks as city attack unit honestly.

 

[stuttrboy]

I voted war chariots because they can take out enemy catapults with ease. Praets would have been my second choice.

 

[bestsss]

The problem is that while skirmishers are expendable, the catas are not. Every dying (skirmisher) means damage to most of the catapults. It's same w/ the withdrawal. While you might be able to pull that vs AI, against human it won't work, skirmishers alone is a lot better vs human.
Against AI at higher levels the numbers of skirmishers pre-produced will totally sink the economy. I doubt it working well even on immortal.

On topic: to decide on a catapult war I need to see ivory. Otherwise either I go for earlier axe/chariot/HA standalone rush or expand peacefully and wait for cannons or rifles.

 

[cabert]

I voted praetorians, because
- they don't die to HA, which are the biggest threat to cats
- they can be built soon enough
- they can hurt the best defender (if it's needed) a lot better than any other UU listed

 

[Fluxx]

Hwacha's EoD

Well upgraded cata's got very good odds against archers.

well upgraded hwacha's and hwacha's dont die, what you put in your stack further doesnt matter, it will finish anything left in the cities/stacks.

Any of the earlygame UU, are either for defensive purposes, or pre cata wars. F.e. praet.

 

[Rittmeyer]

Numidian Cavalry would be grate. But so, with NC you don't even need catpults. Or even plain Horse Archer (amazing tool for early war).

Problem is: Preatorians are clearly overpowered.

 

[TheLazyHase]

Problem is: Preatorians are clearly overpowered.

I don't think so. They are not clearly overpowered, and I doubt they are overpowered at all. They do help, that's the reason they are UU, but still I don't find them that stronger than (pick your choice) Immortal, vulture, elephants, HA and their UU, etc...

 

[Nares]

I voted for the Vulture, but I want to give honorable mentions to the War Chariot and the Impi.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

I don't think so. They are not clearly overpowered, and I doubt they are overpowered at all. They do help, that's the reason they are UU, but still I don't find them that stronger than (pick your choice) Immortal, vulture, elephants, HA and their UU, etc...

But you haven't really provided an argument against them being overpowered either. Here's my argument for them being overpowered:
Eight strength is humongous. On flat ground the Praets will actually beat their counter unit outright! (I'm thinking of axemen) Applied promotions are all modifying the Praets' huge innate strength so as I see it they get waaay stronger with each promo.

 

[Iranon]

@ r_rolo: I'm not sure you can use Gallic Warrior in a way that makes them come close to Praetorians. The hill bonus is not enough to overcome the strength difference compared to a Combat-promoted Praetorian. It becomes better the higher the attacker's bonuses are... if you refuse to give your Praetorians Shock promotions, G2C1 Gallic Warriors do ever so slightly better than C2 Praetorians against Shock-promoted Dog Soldiers.

The withdrawal bonus looks better than it is. It's at its best compared to other options when we're outclassed... but there is no defender strong enough in this time frame that G3 Gallics would have lower expected losses than C2 Praetorians. Shock Axemen fortified in a hill city are not hard enough. If they were... we have catapults, which make for more effective suicide units.
By the time the better chance to survive is significant, the Gallic Warriors have a vey hard time damaging the defenders at all so a good part of the deaths will be in vain.

This leaves the mobility. I'm sure this can be used well... but well enough to offset the discrepancy in raw power? I doubt it.

@ Soirana:

I haven't actually looked too closely at my upkeep situations but I never found it crippling.

Regarding Hwachas: Archers will defend before Swordsmen against Hwachas, even on flatland. Assuming 0% culture/wall defense but full fortification bonuses, Combat I for Swordsman, City Raider I for Catapult/Hwacha, City Guard I for Archer:

Catapult vs. Swordsman (flatland): 31.2%
Catapult vs. Swordsman (hill): 13.6%
Hwacha vs. Archer (flatland): 54.1%
Hwacha vs. ARcher (hill): 26.2%

With a second promotion, things become interesting... Archers with City Guard II will defend against regular Catapults before Combat II Swordsmen even though they have worse odds. This is because the best defender code values first strikes very highly.
From my experience, the AI does not promote units with Charge very often.

*

@ bestsss: Horse Archers with just Flanking I will always get a better than 30% chance to flank. Relying on Spearmen to keep your catapults safe from significant numbers of Horse Archers is like making sure you wear a hard hat before headbutting an incoming train.
If possible, I include spearmen as a failsafe in case I make a blunder, and not having them is annoying. However, avoiding the whole mess is more important. Baiting HAs, keeping them busy, entice them to attack decoys... it may be fiddly but the AI usually falls for it.
I never claimed this would work against a competent human. The mobility advantage on your home turf is a huge asset if you can use it.

Last not least, please don't forget that these considerations assume we have neither metal and no ivory. This would normally mean I'd see little chance for a successful classical war (it seems possible with the Aztecs as well, but I have no experience with that yet).
Ideally we manage to secure ourself the resources to build a more diverse army in the war.

 

[pigswill]

You didn´t actually state the assumption of no metals or ivory in the opening post.

If you assume that you don´t have horses either then you´re asking what´s the best unit for a resourceless rush and whether you need catapults on top, presumably you´re talking about immortal or deity level.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

Most confusing poll evah

 

[Silu]

You didn´t actually state the assumption of no metals or ivory in the opening post.

If you assume that you don´t have horses either then you´re asking what´s the best unit for a resourceless rush and whether you need catapults on top, presumably you´re talking about immortal or deity level.

Half the poll options require a metal or horses so clearly the whole poll is not about that. Just the bit in the conversation about the upsides of Skirmishers. I can see Skirm/Cat being the only way out of a position without metal/horse/ivory.

 

[TheLazyHase]

Last not least, please don't forget that these considerations assume we have neither metal and no ivory.

What is the point of including praetorian, vulture, gallic warrior, etc, in this case ?

 

[TheLazyHase]

But you haven't really provided an argument against them being overpowered either. Here's my argument for them being overpowered:
Eight strength is humongous. On flat ground the Praets will actually beat their counter unit outright! (I'm thinking of axemen) Applied promotions are all modifying the Praets' huge innate strength so as I see it they get waaay stronger with each promo.

AN axe that attack a praetorian in flat ground is 5 strength vs 4 strength. Clearly, the praetorian is better. (if the axe defend it's the other way around, strength 7.5 against strength 8)

But anyway, praetorian are not blatantly overpowered. They obsolete quickly, since once catapult are here they are nothing special. They are strong, but archer still fall rather easily to normal sword, so praetorian rush does not add a new strategy but just reinforce one. that work well. They are not fast - more costly to build, nothing to add to mibility. They need iron. And a lot of unit are at that kind of power. Think to what you can do with quechua, keshik, vulture, and co. You will quickly see that praetorian are solid UU, but not the overpowered kill machine that some people try to make of them.

Yes, you can conquer the world with praetorian. You can with HA, too, and that's not an UU.

 

[dalamb]

They obsolete quickly, since once catapult are here they are nothing special.

I've been told that Rome ought always to tech BW > IW > Wheel to get praets online ASAP, which may be so they don't obsolete quite so quickly.

 

[TheLazyHase]

I've been told that Rome ought always to tech BW > IW > Wheel to get praets online ASAP, which may be so they don't obsolete quite so quickly.

The usual argument is "praetorian obsolete with rifling", or something among theses lines. That was that I refered to, since once catapult are out, praetorian are mainly good at mopping out weakened defender, and they lost there edge at that precise moment.. In medieval warfare, they are really not that good, they can't take on maceman, they are destroyed by crossbow, they can take on longbow only if they are weakened, and they does not counter well knight. So, then again it's more "let's use some more of our obsolete army before its utility wane too much" than a real adapted unit.

(and maybe that Rome will tech some more tech before IW. If you don't have sea food, ignoring agriculture is borderline suicide, and sometime AH is required)

 

[TheWilltoAct]

You make some good points Hase, I see how you are thinking.
For the sake of argument I think we should assume that Rome has easy iron access, I don't think that's unreasonable - I could be wrong.
If you beeline Iron Working you will have an exceeding powerful unit for its time. While I think axes (their only hard counter afaik) can almost take on Praetorians hammer for hammer with both units at base strength, I still argue that the Praetorians' high innate strength makes them exceeding powerful as it is modified by promotions. I'm thinking of the City Raider and the specialty (+25%) promos in particular, because they offer a large modification to the base strength. With CR2 you will have (8*1.45=11.6 attack).

 

[PieceOfMind]

You make some good points Hase, I see how you are thinking.
For the sake of argument I think we should assume that Rome has easy iron access, I don't think that's unreasonable - I could be wrong.
If you beeline Iron Working you will have an exceeding powerful unit for its time. While I think axes (their only hard counter afaik) can almost take on Praetorians hammer for hammer with both units at base strength, I still argue that the Praetorians' high innate strength makes them exceeding powerful as it is modified by promotions. I'm thinking of the City Raider and the specialty (+25%) promos in particular, because they offer a large modification to the base strength. With CR2 you will have (8*1.45=11.6 attack).

Here come the combat mechanics police.

CR on praetorians will usually have less effect than you describe. This is because the modifier from CR is only subtracted from the defender bonuses. Contrast this with combat promos which do change the praetorian's base strength. Against unts like archers and longbows, CR2 is no where near as strong as 11.6 base strength. Combat 2 is probably almost as good, if not better in those situations. Still, it can be argued quite easily this is a strength of praetorians - not a weakness.