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Catapults suck and sieging cities early

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by civvver, Aug 10, 2013.

  1. JeSuisNapoleon

    JeSuisNapoleon Prince

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    Well, catapults are the earliest siege weapon, so they should be the weakest no? ;)

    anyways, most of the time if your using pults, the city your targeting has no walls. If it does have walls, pults are still good, provided you have some swordsmen to attract/absorb the city defences. Even then, you might only get one shot. You better have three of them if your laying siege to Babylon, or just wait for better tech and upgrade.

    if no walls, the archers are better because they can move around easier, and are better overall in the early-mid game.

    Sometimes trebuchet are a great unit, sometimes not. You need to protect them from harm. cannons are when things get interesting.
     
  2. Blicero

    Blicero Warlord

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    Well maybe catapults less so, but I do find siege weapons in general to be required to effectively take cities once their defenses "mature" for the era. So if you're facing cities with 25+ defense before you have XB, you either wait to upgrade to XB (which could mean the defense in 40 by then), or you bring along a catapult or two (which you'll eventually need anyway later as trebuchets or cannons). But I have to say with catapults, not only do they have to be hard-built (which is a pain for that period of the game), but their window of usefulness can be pretty quick.

    So catapults may need a little love, but I find siege engines in genral to be pretty useful despite their handicaps, and you might as well start with at least one cat.
     
  3. slowcar

    slowcar King

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    those cities will one-shot the catapults, while CBs will at least survive a turn, allowing you to cycle them (if you have enough). even if you bring 3 catapults you'll most likely lose 2 of them, quite a steep cost.

    for me the main reason is that catapults have to be hard built after researching math, and the main challenge is usually to defeat the field army of the AI. On immortal/deity this often means defending the own territory, then advancing on the offense.
    I usually use this phase (enemy army depleted) to strengthen my economy, not to build catapults.

    well, in BNW early wars with city capture are harshly penaltied anyhow, building a couple of catapults and not take any cities seems like a waste.
     
  4. TacotheDeep

    TacotheDeep Chieftain

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    After reading this thread, I'm determined to mod my game so catapults are useful. Anybody know a thread on this forum offhand that details where to find the xml file, how to edit it, etc.?

    An automatic rang promotion seems most preferable, though hard coding them to give them artillery range seems appropriate to me as well. Catapults were a pretty big innovation in warfare, whereas they seem like a terrible idea in Civ5.
     
  5. Danierokon

    Danierokon Chieftain

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    I will never forget that moment - Boudicca's city (with Goddess of protection + Oligarchy) one shot my catapult :lol:
     
  6. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    my catapults always get one-shotted by a city + CB and die. I hate the idea of "sacrificing" siege units, it was my number one annoyance in Civ 4. If siege is behind melee lines it should be safe from city attacks. Anyways...I take cities with CBs instead. They can survive a city shot + CB shot, retreat and heal.

    building a bunch and expecting to lose some along the way also works. I just don't like it.
     
  7. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

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    Everything you need to know about modding is in the the Creation & Customization sub-forum.
     
  8. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Whoward has two siege mods that are fairly balanced and, IMO, do just enough to enhance the survivability and effectiveness of siege units, without making them OP:

    Siege Defensive Terrain (eliminates the No Defensive Terrain Bonuses anti-promotion - http://www.picknmixmods.com/mods/f066373b-6aa0-46a6-9a99-21cbf27cc204/mod.html)

    All Siege Units Indirect Fire (http://www.picknmixmods.com/mods/99506232-2c32-4800-8beb-305f3240f169/mod.html)

    Also, in the Steam Workshop there's a mod that gives the Cover I promotion to all cats, trebs and cannons. Look for Covered Catapults/Trebuchets/Cannons by orange.
     
  9. Theruss

    Theruss Warlord

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    Catapults are good for those cities that are surrounded by rough terrain. Of course, you probably need at least 3 and you may lose 1 or 2 of them. But hopefully it's enough to take that pesky city.
     
  10. JeSuisNapoleon

    JeSuisNapoleon Prince

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    First of all I personaly dont think they need a big tweak, but I can see others disagree :)

    I think reducing the build cost would be the simplest tweak. They would remove main complaint that they are expensive to build. This is all that is realy needed.

    A range promotion availble as the 1st promo would make them much more desirable as well. Maybe defense against ranged attacks could also be availble as a 1st promo (maybe it is already? i forget). the point is not to make all catapults immediatly better, just cheaper to build, and then they upgrade better. this also makes the upgrade path to higher tech units musch more valuable. Unfortunatly, I think the upgrade cost to trebuchet should be increased by the amount you redude the build cost of the pults though.

    this way, players with early barracks will get great siege weapons from the get go. more incentive to built the pults.

    I have a long standing complaint that the city defences in this game can do crazy things like fire over a long range and damage more advanced units that should be out of range. In mid-evil times, I am pretty sure trebuchet would be placed where castle defences wouldnt just shoot at them with arrows and destroy them, but thats what happens in civ V. It makes the game ballanced, but it seems wrong.
     
  11. slowcar

    slowcar King

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    it is an abstraction. maybe the castle owners do a sortie, send sappeurs in the night or have their own trebuchets in the city and fire back.

    mid-evil :goodjob:
     
  12. Strategist83

    Strategist83 King

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    It is. Siege units aren't more expensive than regular units. You can afford to (and are meant to) lose some during a siege.

    These composite bow compositions people are talking about are strictly an AI-abuse thing only. You could never take a well fortified city without siege units (and melee units as well!) against a human opponent. When talking balance, keep in mind the game isn't balanced around the AI's inability to wage war effectively. Siege units are fine. If I were to change anything about them, though, it would be to make their '+200% bonus vs cities' also apply on defense so that they won't die so easily to the city's bombard attack.
     
  13. HNBiscuit

    HNBiscuit Chieftain

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    I find the early siege weapons ineffective as they are often too much bother then what they are worth. They are inflexable, immoble (lack of ability to move and shoot) expensive to produce and is so and so vs a of other things. It really doesn't seem worth it in the early game to bother with catapults or the upgrades, since archers can do a better job without dying. Which is unfortunate because I really liked them when I first started playing.

    Once you get cannons though, the extra damage on cities really is a eyeopener and the next upgrade makes them range 3 monsters. It's about the same time that crossbows become considerably less effective as a ranged unit when they upgrade and become Peusdo melee. It seems really strange since I would have thought it would be the other way around, archers would only have a range of 1, guns would have a range of 2.

    I personally have stopped using siege weapons in the early game as while I cannot take down cities as quick, it allows me to make better deveopments in my other fields and the resources I could spend building them is often better spent elsewhere.
     
  14. Strategist83

    Strategist83 King

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    Alright, just hold it with the misinformation right there, Mr.

    Siege units cost the same as contemporary units. Period. It's been quite a while since units costs were equalized.

    You can siege an AI city with CBs only. This is not what the game is balanced around, and it would never work against a human opponent. A real siege requires melee units backed by siege units.

    Ask for better AI instead of fixes to balance problems that aren't there. This is the Zero all over again.
     
  15. JeSuisNapoleon

    JeSuisNapoleon Prince

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    This^ = truth.

    Usualy when I am deciding to build a catapult, its like ~4 turns.
    Same as pike or some other units.

    the differnce being that some other unit was upgrades from a spear or Composite or warrior, and there is not an earlier siege weapon. Its not a real big problem.

    I think if you are trying to capture a city with walls + olig + protective religion, you should try to displace that religion as a first step. If you can do that then you siege weapon wont get one-hit killed. If you cant do that, your going to be in for a long painful war without siege weapons i guess.
     

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