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Catherine of Russia - Who wants to Play?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Harv, Apr 29, 2020.

  1. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    T55 "masonry run"
    Spoiler :
    Not bad, but I would definitely expand to 4 cities asap, even if the 4th city is working something mediocre like a grass river cottage. I SW of NE sheep would allow you to share the wet corn while capital is focusing on getting :hammers: towards granary. You are going a bit overboard with :commerce: at the expense of founding good cities. Settler instead of worker somewhere would've been better.


    T62 "take 3"
    Spoiler :
    1-turning the Oracle is cool! :thumbsup: Overall looking decent, but some mistakes. The scout fog busting tundra in the north is nonsensical. You shouldn't care about that area at all. Let barbs spawn there, they will head towards Julius anyway. The area SW of your cities is more of a concern and you should try to fully fog bust that.

    There are two things wrong with this picture. First is barracks. 50:hammers: spent very badly, that's almost a city for an IMP leader. Don't stop expanding at three cities, when you have decent sites available! 2nd mistake is slow-building a settler. With a granary, you should never aim to slow-build workers/settlers. By "never aim", I mean that sometimes due to :)-problems you need to do it to cool off whip anger. But here you have HR next turn so you no longer have :)-issues and should be looking to grow and whip every settler/worker from now on. Slow-building is 1:food:->1:hammers:, whipping IMP settlers with a granary is what 1:food:->4:hammers: or so. 1 :) costs only 15:hammers:.

    Civ4ScreenShot0235.JPG

    I understand that you are going to switch HR+orgrel at mono, which is a fine idea, but does delay the extra :) that you were aiming for. Maybe this makes it a bit less of a sin to slow build that settler, though I think growing into unhappiness and whipping is still better by a big margin.


    T67 "monotheism"
    Spoiler :
    Oh, switched Moscow to grow, good! :thumbsup: No remarks here, wp, now switch civics and adopt religion. Heavy cultural pressure on Antium is not a good thing really, just causing diplo demerits. If you are planning to stay peaceful with Julius, you should be looking to settle a gift city for him.

    You mention a shrine. They are often quite bad, as great persons are so valuable. A few :gold:pt often can't compete with a golden age for example, which generates tons of :gp:-points to bulb techs making ~1500:science: immediately.

    Fippy's comment on HAs doesn't mean you should go for HA-attack now, she meant that you could've gone for HBR instead of oracling monarchy, which is more of a peaceful path.


    T72 "take 3" to be continued...
     
  2. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Construction
    to Turn 100

    Well, if we going down the road to war with the Roman empire at the height of its power, then we might as well get started.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-5-8_23-46-25.png



    It starts with a slap to the face so characteristic of Catherine the Great.

    So far, I have seen four of those Praetorians wandering around. Two of them are in Antium. Two are in Rome. There might be more further away. I thought these were the most important cities to check.

    This is what our situation looks like.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-5-8_23-46-5.png


    About the 90% slider setting. I believe this is yet another one of the exceptions to the rule.
    At 100% setting, we run out of gold the next turn. At 90% setting, we do not.
    The Temple of Artemis got built, so we will collect fail-gold.

    Now I have a question! If I leave the slider at 100%, then do we collect the Temple of Artemis gold first? Or does the slider adjust?
    A quick experiment will answer that question!
    (Added: Nope. It slips to 90%, then the fail-gold is added.)

    In this case, we get Currency at Turn 103 instead of 104. This is worth a bunch of extra commerce, much more than the 1 we lose from rounding. :p

    Next question:
    How easy would it be to bait the Praetorians into open ground? The stack might be an easier target than behind Antium's walls. Even if we do take them down, they still get a bonus for being fortified. I think JC will play a war aggressively. As long as we can keep his stack away from our rich flood-plains, we should be okay. That might be a good place to destroy them.

    I also just realized that with Construction, we get bridges! I don't see a place where that helps us yet, since I have not built workers. We are busy with Catapults and Swords.
    We would do well with a few more axes.

    Any ideas on keeping Rags away from us? I believe begging for gold was mentioned several times. We should have Currency in 3 more turns.

    I'm taking a bit of time to look at more of the situation.

    The Roman Iron Mine is being attacked with our culture. We are already at 25%.
    St. Petersburg is generating 22 culture per turn, but the iron is 4 tiles away.
    I don't know how culture is applied to individual tiles to get the percentages.
    The border appears to have just expanded.

    So far, we are sitting at 7 swords, 2 axes, and 2 chariots.
    We lost 1 sword attacking Parthian.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 9, 2020
  3. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Even if you attack Caesar there is a danger he could bribe Ragnar. You may have to fight a two-front war either way but honestly I think even that eventuality you can handle. I don't think these two guys combined can take you out at this point.
     
  4. umass_dude

    umass_dude Chieftain

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    I've tried this game a few times on emperor which I can only occasionally win on. The tactic that worked for me was cottage spamming, ignoring Oracle and Horse rushing Caesar before he gets praetorian going. Once I took his best cities it was easy to take out him and ragnar out.
     
  5. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Currency
    to Turn 103

    Three more turns. We finally ground our way to Currency. We built another sword and a couple of catapults.

    In other news, we now have control over the Roman Iron.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-5-9_8-49-48.png


    I don't know what the rules are for building when you lose your resource. They might get this turn to finish whatever iron units they are building. They might be forced to put it on hold.

    So maybe what we see is what we have. I have seen four Praetorians wandering around. I think that is about how many axes we need.
    And about 7 catapults.

    Question: In the BuG mod, what does the fist mean in the display? Does that mean JC is preparing for war and Ragnar is not?
    Oh. It means JC went WHEOOHRN.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Ye Caesar is plotting most likely on you.
     
  7. 5tephen

    5tephen Warlord

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    Oct 4, 2018
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    @Harv
    I've had a look at your T103 save. JC is plotting on you because you refused his demand. I think you need to commit harder to the war. I would be whipping catapults in every city - aiming for half your miltary to be catapults and understanding that you will need to keep producing them until you're onto JC's last couple of cities. To a great extent you can forget about unhappiness - it gets worse if the war drags on so you might as well whip a decent army and finish it ASAP. JC has quite a few nice calendar resources in his land too which will help with happiness.
    The only exception to catapults is that I would whip the granary in Parthian when you can as that will be a great city for whipping an army and (after the war) great person production.
    The other thing is you need to road towards JC immediately. At the moment you won't be able to resupply your forces once you start taking losses, then you'll have to heal up in captured cities giving him time to whip out more of an army.
    I would use your workers to chop out your army. Plains farms are generally not useful.
     
  8. 5tephen

    5tephen Warlord

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    I had a play from your save.
    DOW on JC T109. JC eliminated T126. Got a bit sloppy at times (see axemen lost) and I've neglected the city management in the later save as I'm not going to play on.
    In the build up to war I juggled hammers around so I could 2 pop whip catapults with overflow into the next. If the overflow was too much, I let it overflow but then the next turn started an axe and then 2 pop whipped that the next turn to overflow back into the catapult.
    I've attached the save from T109 and T127 but can provide others if useful.
    From here on I think Ragnar could be rolled over with the existing army. I was probably going to go CoL next as I suspect with a medieval empire of 21+ cities that maintenance will be high and then I'd beeline astronomy.
    My approach might or might not be the optimal way but it shows a possible approach.
    Spoiler End of war :

    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Are there any tricks to make sure we don't get stabbed by the Vikings? I keep hearing something about begging for gold.

    Otherwise, I will have to build some spears to keep, because Horse Archers is what he has been building and he is just a few turns from having iron.
     
  10. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Beg 10 gold and it should give 10T peace. You really have nothing to worry about here. The Ai stacks should be smaller than anything you can build. JC stack may only be 3-5 units. If you get catapults sooner attack him and take out the iron,
     
  11. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Okay, I will give this a try when Rags hooks up his iron and goes Weehorn. It buys 10 turns of not having to worry about him.

    We actually have the iron right now.

    JC had iron for 21 turns, from 83 to 103, inclusively. Then St. Pete claimed it. Should I keep the iron up or should I destroy the mine because I can?
     
  12. 5tephen

    5tephen Warlord

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    I gifted (or sold for whatever money he had) Ragnar mysticism, polytheism, priesthood and monarchy. This got him to pleased and then I begged 10 gold before DOW. My plan had been to get him to switch to hereditary rule so we'd have shared favourite civic but he became pleased before there was time for him to change civics.
    JC has more than 3-5 units but isn't troublesome - I wonder if he started red fisting a few turns back and has been building units?
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2020
  13. 5tephen

    5tephen Warlord

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    @Harv
    I reread your latest post. I may have misunderstood but are you planning DOW on JC and then waiting for Ragnar to red fist before begging?

    If so, this might not work so well:
    1. You can only beg at pleased/friendly (you can demand at cautious or less which also gets peace treaty but he might well say no.) DOW is likely to drop relations with Ragnar 'you declared war on our friend.'
    2. It's best to beg before you DOW JC or he might bribe Ragnar on you which will happen in between turns (i.e. no time for red fist warning.) Ragnar can't be bribed if you have made a successful beg as you would then have a 10 turn peace treaty with him. It seems to be much less likely for them to bribe someone on you after the first few turns of war even if your war lasts longer than 10 turns.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2020
  14. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    If he has no iron this could be a very weak dow. He can't of built that many praets. 6 workers seems light given number of forest/jungle here.

    Get whipping catapults.

    Yes better to beg turn of attack. Gifting a lot of free techs seems a waste due to WFYABTA. Other Ai count number of techs you gift/trade. At this stage you might as well clear up your continent.
     
  15. 5tephen

    5tephen Warlord

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    @Gumbolt
    I thought WFYABTA only applied to techs you receive, not give away or trade for gold? Also, I think AI has to 'see' you trade for it to count meaning it's only Julius and Ragnar who will know and they won't be around long.

    If you feel it's suboptimal to give away/cheaply trade these techs, Harv should take your advice before mine as you're a vastly better and more experienced player but would be good to know if I've made a habit of mistakenly trading obsolete techs for gold to my disadvantage.
     
  16. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Your right it's only for techs received. It would only be JC watching. If Harv wipes out JC it won't matter. If you get Ragnar to pleased he can't backstab you because an AI bribes him. Where JC can backstab at pleased.

    Both can plot at pleased. The religion should help get both to pleased long term. HR would help with Ragnar. Assuming he switches civics. Getting to 10-11+ would be more long term. Pends if Harv plans to wipe both out short-long term.. Otherwise monarchy leads to feudalism sooner. Ragnar long term could be annoying with iron. Can't take the war monger from him. Hopefully power rating would deter.
     
  17. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    War with Rome
    to Turn 107

    Hindsight says I could have asked either the Romans and Vikings for tribute - and get it, along with a ten-turn peace treaty. The result of not doing it is in a parallel universe somewhere, the Vikings also declare war. We have been building spears in the background in preparation for that event.

    We kept building and and at the start of Turn 107, JC declared war.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-5-9_19-34-34.png


    Here is what we have built so far:
    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-5-9_19-35-56.png


    Quite a few swords, only a couple axes and spears.
    4 Catapults.

    Rome has horse, but no metal right now. So far, I have seen 4 Praetorians.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    January and the Siege of Antium
    to Turn 110

    We roll the dice and we take our chances.
    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-5-9_22-22-36.png


    We have an edge, so a good chance of taking that Praetorian out entirely. If we miss by a couple of swings, then they are still wounded that the Chariot has a good chance of taking it out. I figured the odds of completely losing were about 15%. Most likely, then he walks away with an extra experience point. If the chariot also loses, then he gets a promotion and is more like the rest of the Praetorians we will be facing.

    Well, we won handily and rolled very well. The axe took only a single hit and might be in shape for the next battle. The Chariot rolled on to grab the Worker. In the worst case, the Romans retaliate and take out our axe, our chariot, and their worker. They didn't retaliate.

    We continued the attack.
    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-5-9_22-26-12.png


    We still have very good odds at taking out this stack as well, so we might as well. It is fewer units we have to face behind the walls of antium.
    It was another easy victory.
    Then Swordsman 4 lost against a Chariot at 90.1%. We will take it, okay? It is better than losing to the Praetorian at 64.3%.
    The next Swordsman won with a sliver of health remaining. He will become our healer for now.
    That might have been a bad idea, given how quickly January shows up in this war. On the other hand, we are pressing an attack on Antium, so a healer comes in handy.
    We also have a lot of depth in this stack.

    We pounded on the walls for another 3 turns. Again, not sure if this was a good idea, or not. We not not have many Catapults, yet, so they are better off saved.
    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-5-9_22-33-6.png

    upload_2020-5-9_22-35-39.png



    Making up for a bad roll against a Chariot, Swordsman 1 won a victory against that Praetorian, making the rest of the assault much easier. We lost two more Swordsmen, for a grand total of three in this war so far, plus the scout.

    Meanwhile, Russia's greatest general, January, has joined the war!
    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-5-9_22-36-47.png


    Body count so far:

    We lost:
    3 Swordsmen (120)
    1 Scout (15)
    Total 135

    They lost:
    4 Archers (100)
    2 Chariots (60)
    2 Praetorians (90)
    1 Spearman (35)
    Total 285

    We also captured a Worker and Antium.

    We also just researched Calendar. Which way should we go next?
    I'm leaning towards the Arts route. We seem to be far ahead in the technology race.
    We still have a very good chance at winning the race to Music. (However, I count 36 turns right now, because we are spending a lot on military right now.)

    An alternative is Code of Laws. I don't know if we are ready to build Courthouses.

    Ragnar has Construction. Horseback Riding might be handy if he is coming at us with Catapults. However, I would prefer to extract that from him.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 9, 2020
  19. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    You do not need court houses. Not every city needs a court house.

    Ragnar will never trade a military tech with you. He is building a small HA stack on your border.

    He is pleased with JC but in theory could still attack him. You can get him to pleased by gifting a larger tech.

    If you truly want him at pleased you need to start gifting resources or trading them for gold. This is worth +2 diplo.
    Monarchy gift could work. Or backfire if he gets longbow and you decide you want to remove him. He won't be trading many techs if isolated with you.
     
  20. 5tephen

    5tephen Warlord

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    @Gumbolt
    Thanks for that, I didn't consider Ragnar going feudalism after monarchy which would be bad. I assume it's a bad idea to make a demand of Ragnar to try and get 10 turns peace as he might start plotting too for 'you made an arrogant demand'?

    @Harv
    Sorry, the mention of courthouses was my fault. I was considering some courthouses after taking all of Julius' and Ragnar's cities depending on maintenance at that point; at the moment they're not useful. Until the war is over I wouldn't build more or less any buildings. I see lots of catapults being produced :)
    You may have been better attaching that general to a chariot (or your scout if it hadn't died) as it's great for a supermedic to have more than one movement.
     

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