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Catherine the Great leads Russia (altenative leader suggetion)

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by halfhalfharp, Jan 13, 2018 at 5:45 AM.

  1. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    I miss Catherine the great (cleavage) in Civ V. Lets bring her back in the coming expansions, shall we?

    Catherine the Great


    (Oh I love this Catherine, really.:hammer2:)

    Background History:

    Catherine II, or Yekaterina Alexsyevna II, was a german born princess of some minor German states. Her future mother-in-law late Empress Elizabeth took her to Russia, where she would marry the heir, Peter III.

    While this marriage was proved to be unhappy, Catherine sought books as her companion. Attracted by the ideas of freedom and logics, she was no usual princess.

    After the late Empress RIP-ed, and Peter ascended the throne. Catherine plotted behind the scene and finally caught the chance to be rid of him for good. Instead of ascending as regent to her young son, future Paul I, she grabbed the throne herself and proclaimed herself empress of all Russians.

    In her 34 year reign, Russia oversaw a drastic change. She took the Crimean through bloodshed and assimilated part of Poland, creating huge chunks of empty lands, which she created numbers new towns there.

    Catherine reformed the old fashioned russian administration, giving decrees emphasizing the importance of basic educations and legal justice. She even drafted a whole law codex by herself. She patronized a lot of talented people and artists, even went as far as buying some their entire library collections.

    In diplomacy, Catherine made the Polish king her puppet, bribing enemy generals to buy time for war preparation, and strongly intervened Prussian states and Austrian affairs. (That's why Maria Theresa hated her so much)
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Leader ability: Velikaya
    -Every time a specific district is built, she earns a single boost of 40 great person points to the corresponding great people.
    -Constructing a specific district for the first time reduces the :c5production:cost by 50%.
    -She retains the russian civ ability but not the Lavra district.

    Notes: Catherine was famous for her territorial expansion, development of the empire and most importantly, bringing enlightenment into Russia. She started the foundations of many cities, and revolutionized Russian government system. Her ties with great french thinkers like Rosseau was also well known. Being a great patronage of art and science herself, Catherine also purchased a lot of art works that later founded the bases of the Hermitage museum. During her reign, she reformed the division of provinces and settled numerous towns and cities in areas previously no one lived. Foreigners never believed in this, creating the lore of "Potemkin villages", thinking this extremely quick development will be impossible.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Unique Unit: Prosecutor generals

    -replaces spies. When assigned to a home city with a governor, they grant you governor points and increases loyalty in the city (when the counter spy mission is accomplished).

    -They can operate a mission called "Bribing governor" in foreign city with a governor (of course).
    The mission costs double coins:c5gold: of the target civ's GPT and can be increased to enhance the chance of success.
    Once the mission is successful, the governor in that city will stay non-functional for a few turns and reduces the city loyalty:c5influence: by 80%.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Unique Unit: Skirmisher
    -Comes with gunpowder, replaces musketeers and can be built with iron if niter is not available.
    -They have +2 movement speed:c5moves: when not adjacent to non-Skirmisher units.
    -They have +10 combat strength:c5war: against lone enemy units (without adjacent friendly units)
    -They have 52 strength, slightly lower than common musketeer they replace.

    Notes: This unit is based on general (or other title? I don't remember well) Alexander Suvorov, one of Russia's greatest military commander. He was one of the few commanders that never encountered one loss in his 63 battles throughout his life. His success was based on his use of skirmishing instead of the traditional war tactics. Skirmish is something like dividing the army into small groups to increase their mobility and ambush. This greatly increased precision of striking, reducing the casualties to a minimum. Yet, imperial Russian army was also famed for lack of proper logistics and equipment. Who knows what did they build the musketeers with?

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Leader Agenda: Enlightened Aristocracy
    She likes civs that have recruited a lot of great people, dislikes those that haven't.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Playstyle:
    -Settle and build districts that leads to your desired victory type. (E.g. if you aim for science victory, settles a lot of cities and construct districts boosts the Great scientist points significantly.)

    - Use the Prosecutor Generals to aid yourself in earning new governors or promoting them, as well as stabilizing cities with lower loyalties.

    -In the offensive usage of the Prosecutor Generals, you can disrupt your enemies' cities and try to tear them from your enemies before you start an invasion with your another unique.

    -The Skirmishers are not well-cut for defensive purpose, especially when they face a wave of enemies. Thus try to build ranged units in defense and a couple of Skirmishers to ambush lone enemy units.

    Victory Routes:
    Science :c5science:: Great as she can build early campus district faster and recruit great scientists as she expands.
    Religion:c5faith::
    Decent as she can grab great prophet earlier with the free great person points and faster holy site construction. But she lacks continuous faith production bonus.
    Culture:c5culture:: Great as she can gain great artists, musicians, writers points with one theater district.
    Domination:c5war:: Decent as she has the potential to disrupt city loyalties and her unique combat unit are easier to build, although they come in later game.

    Weakness (Counter strategy):

    -If you manage to deny Catherine of city founding or force her to abandon district constructions in the early game, she will be greatly weakened from her early bonus.

    -She consistently needs new cities to build more districts and maximize her advantage. Try to stop her from that.

    -Occupy all the iron/niter resources also shut her from her unique.

    -Spying can be quite easily countered with your own spies, or rob the Russian trade routes to deny her usage of Bribing.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Leader lines


    Agenda approval: You are such a noble soul. Your rule is for the good of the people and justice.
    (душа ваша благородна. Примите за правило ваших постановлений благо народа и справедливость)

    Agenda disapproval: Power without people’s confidence means nothing. When you have enlightenment at your side, show it to your people.
    (Власть без доверия народа ничего не значитю. Когда имеешь на своей стороне истину и разум, должно выставлять это перед очами народа)

    Declare war: Politics is not a hospital. Weak ones are only stumped harder by others.
    (Политика не больница. Кто слаб, того пятками вперед вытаскивают.)

    Declared war: To save bloodshed, I sincerely wish for peace. But since you asked .....
    (Для сбережения человеческой крови я искренно желаю мира. Но вы меня пригласили...)

    Defeated: Even if death should visit, I shall go with him in love.
    (я не хочу жить без любви. пускай умру- но пусть умру любя.)

    Notes: most of the sentences are retrieved from Catherine's diary. She kept a long diary since the time she entered the royal palace. It mentioned most of her personal lives, feelings and ideals that wove her maleficent life. The last one is from Pushkin's poem, as long as I recall.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018 at 7:22 AM
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  2. Phrozen

    Phrozen Chieftain

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    Catherine is too much like Peter. I would rather have Ivan III (Conquest and Diplomacy), Alexander I (Defense against superior enemies), Alexander II (Diplomacy and Culture), or Khrushchev (Science: Space Race and Diplomacy)
     
  3. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    .

    Catherine is like Peter, and not like Peter at all.

    Peter brought in westernization based on his liking to the European culture, and passion on new things.
    (Thats why his ability is the Grand Embassy, which brings in culture and science from other lands)

    Catherine lived in a westernized society and she brought in the thoughts of logic, and put extreme effort in re-shaping the administration and education.
    (Thats why I made her ability as great-person related and expansion.)

    Peter inherited the throne. Being the true heir, he put aside his country and went for a grand tour in Europe.
    Catherine was not even Russian, she was born German. Yet she plotted her throne over her Emperor husband.
    This marks their difference in court political skills.

    At a first glance, they both resulted in the modernization of Russia, but their work and character were just distinct.
    Just like I will not say Stalin is much like Lenin, although they are around the same era and seem to be doing similar(?) things.

    And in game Peter is better in winning religiously, if you know how to play Russia.

    Yet this kit for Catherine made her suit better in other routes, so I don't think I have made them similar.


    Why not Ivan IV? I supposed he was the better choice for domination Russia.
    Alexander I is quite appreciable, though, and I will choice him over Alex- II.
    Haha, are we going to burn Moscow:c5razing: again? Oh, yeah baby, burn it hot.

    Space Race advantages? That is a good idea. We do lack leaders with late game abilities... for a reason actaully.
    Because we cannot assure that, he can survive that long when your enemies know your strength.
    How will you suggest to amend this problem?

    And really, no Stalin? I do like to see Uncle Joseph and his mustache.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018 at 12:28 PM
  4. Phrozen

    Phrozen Chieftain

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    Alexander I was the Tsar during the Napoleonic Wars. Alexander II was the Tsar that pulled Russia from the brink after the disastrous Crimean War. Helped stabilized relations in Europe and introduced vast reforms of the Russian government and military with his goal leading to Russian becoming a Constitutional Monarch like Britain. He was assassinated before he could complete it and his son, who he had a bad relationship with due to their differing views on government, took over and pretty much wiped away his changes.

    That is why Khrushchev will have diplomatic abilities as well, the Khrushchev Thaw. Khrushchev compared to his predecessors and the government that took over after he was removed from power was quite liberal and wanted to engage with the other powers of the world as not as completely hostile powers.

    Russians regard Khrushchev as the best Soviet leader and one of the only decent leaders of the 20th century.
     
  5. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Ayeah, he was. But he wasn't good in military anyway. The tsar himself lost once against Napoleon in the battle of Austerlitz and never tried military affairs after that.
    The victory against Napoleon was mostly done by mother Russia, and also his generals.
    His diplomatic skills were far more superior though.

    Unlike Catherine and Peter, Alex I was not enthusiastic in ruling at all. He didn't passionately work for the government, and even gave all his political power to Aleksey Arakcheyev in his final years.

    He was more likely to win by luck and in the tides of changes although his reluctance of not surrendering was impressive too.

    That wasnt enough to convince me to place him over Catherine.

    I heard Alex-II was famed for his emancipation of serfs right? Something that Russia wasn't ready for at that time.
    The society didn't have enough legal and economic compatibility for the pop up of so many free citizens:c5unhappy:,
    making the newly-free workers and farmers' life only harder than their lives as serfs.
    And at the same time he bloodily suppressed the revolutionaries, underlying more bombs for the dis-satisfaction towards the monarchy.
    That reform was a failure, with or without continuation. His assassination explained that well.

    So I stand for Alex I over him. But none of them were more skillful than Catherine in ruling, in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018 at 1:38 PM
  6. Sinaherib

    Sinaherib Chieftain

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    Err no. Catherine represents pretty much the same time period as Peter - Russian Empire in XVIII century. It would be much more interesting to see a leader from pre-Peter's Moscow Tsardom or USSR. Besides, developers said that they want to introduce new leaders in the game this time? If Russia gets alternate leader, it would be great to see a ruler, who has never appeared in the series before.
     
  7. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    So in addition to an incredibly strong LUA, you're proposing two leader unique units? How would that in any way be balanced, especially when Russia's landgrab abilities and super GWAM-generating Holy Sites are already potent?

    I like Catherine, but I agree with others: she's too similar to Peter to really be worth including as a second leader. Not to mention that there's nothing wrong with Peter; there are other civs that are much more in need of alternatives (Egypt and France, in particular).
     
  8. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Unintentionally a feminist.

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    We're not getting another Tzar(ina) as a Russian leader. Leaders represent different empires within the same Civ, so, as much as I adore Cathy, she's out of it.

    I wouldn't rule out a future Kievan Rus', Muscovite, Novgorodian or Soviet leader. Olga the Saint would be an interesting foil to Peter who could get faith from kills or buffed pantheons.
     
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  9. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    I dun object to Rus' leaders. Yet soviet leaders make me feel strange, for their use of the Romanov Tsar eagle as symbol will be irrelevant. Also, the russian civ ability and unique district provides faith. But you know... Communists are atheists.

    If we are adding Soviet leaders we needa change the national symbol and even the civ itself, will it happen like that awkward Macedonian separation from Greece?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018 at 9:42 PM
  10. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Its my concern too. Maybe she should drop the lavra in order to be balanced? I dun think double unique hurts too much, when only one of them are battle units.

    ( Finally some one can comment on the kit design, glad to hear this)
     
  11. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    We only have two to base it on so far, of course, but so far neither new leader has involved any alteration to the base civ, though, and the Lavra isn't attached to Peter. (I do really like the LUA, by the way--it just might be a little much for an already-potent civ like Russia, especially compared to Peter's rather sad LUA.)
     
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  12. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    I do argue that they are different in game play style. While Peter is only good at religious route, Catherine can do better in the others.

    Really, I sincerely hope that they won't go to strange choices for that plain new-ness, like the op Massagate Queen who leads Scythia....
     
  13. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Thank you for the liking.

    Emmm I think the alternativity is flexible? We may just retain the civ ability only, and change the others, right? That might seem over powered too if she has all the uniques.

    I must agree with that part for Peter. His LA cant make him the westernizer that he truly was. Instead his LA makes him the powerful religious leader.

    (the rest are just my grudges against Peter, sorry to let you see this)
    Why is he playing religiously....That guy never respected Orthodox in his entire life...he reduced Russian church from powerful lords to nothing but morality puppets. never mention that he melt hundreds of church bells to forge cannons....

    and Catherine was much more pious... Nvm, I guess. But the most disrespectful guy in Russia won the religious victory? Just imagine my disbelief, as if hearing Stalin going religious...
    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018 at 9:48 PM
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  14. TahamiTsunami

    TahamiTsunami Chieftain

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    I may be in the minority on this, but I certainly wouldn't mind Catherine as the second leader for Russia. Would I like a more militaristic leader like a couple of the Ivans or a more religious leader like Olga, sure. But I think Catherine is a fine choice too. Peter and Catherine may have both have had several similarities, but for me the most important thing is that they don't play similarly and you did a good job with her leader ability having more focus on district building and recruiting great people as opposed to focusing strictly on gaining culture and science or meeting other civs. Also gotta give you props for her quotes, you've obviously done your research!

    As for criticisims, I do have to agree that 2 unique units for Catherine, on top of her and Russia's already considerable abilities, seems a bit much. Also, since Peter is already a pretty good leader, Russia isn't in as dire of a need of a second leader as some of the other civs like Egypt, France, Sumeria, etc. However, if Russia does get a second leader and its Catherine the Great, I certainly won't be complaining as long as she has a playstyle like this.
     
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  15. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    Thankyou! :) You are surely cheering me up with your warm appreciation. The motivation that I try to feature Catherine, despite all her charisma, is Peter's inability of being the westernization monarch he should represent .

    And imagine, among the bearded Ivan, the mustache Stalin, and the charming Catherine, it is just natural for me to prefer her.

    I do agree that double uniques sound too powerful on top of the original russian strength.

    We can make her drop the Lavra district, as referencing to the steep decline of church power in imperial Russia.

    For the units, only one of them are combat units, which has a slightly lower strength than units they replace.

    And also, the spy does not simply give her the strength as spy missions depend much on luck. She needs to have financial back up too, which is something against warmongering.

    Even if she succeeds, according to the new loyalty mechanism, the city will remain a free one. Thats why her another unique comes into conquering.

    Thats why I think she is kind of balanced in this way?

    I do like to keep you entertained;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018 at 2:05 AM
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  16. ferretbacon

    ferretbacon Warlord

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    That's primarily why an alternate Russian leader would be boring: their LUA would be rather anemic due to the robust CUA and UI that Russia gets.

    A civ like America would be great for an alt, for example. Though we don't know the full changes made to Founding Fathers, it's not that strong. As such, Teddy gets a second UU, a combat buff, and a bonus to national parks compared to Peter's trickle of science and culture from trade routes if he's behind the tech curve.
     
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  17. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Catherine the Great is on my wishlist for additional leaders.
     
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  18. Sinaherib

    Sinaherib Chieftain

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    In my opinion Alt. leader should not only provide different play style, but represent different era in country's history. If we take India - its new leader comes from ancient times, while the first leader is modern. The problem with Peter and Catherine, like I said before, is their background: almost the same historical period. Russia had other interesting leaders in its history, it won't be a problem to find a good alternative to Peter. Besides, the series seems to be too focused on XVIII century, while, for example, rulers of Moscow Tsardom/Grand Principality of Moscow have never appeared in Civ series. Btw Ivan III also has epithet "The Great". They had Peter the Great, Catherine the Great, why not adding Ivan the Great? It would be very refreshing in my opinion:)

    Anyway, I wouldn't mind Catherine, if the current leader wasn't Peter. But since they chose him to be in game, I would prefer to have another alternative rather than Cathie.
     
  19. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Unintentionally a feminist.

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    Yes, like Macedon, but in a way which isn't awkward. Don't get me wrong, I hate Macedon in Civ 6 (Macedon goes directly against the Devs's own approach of alternative leaders and was only created to introduce Alex as a DLC leader to pander to the fans and make more money. It's a commercialised fanwank), but alternative "leaders" are better off being seen as "alternative empires" instead, with separate colour schemes, symbols, UUs and City Lists, while retaining one encompassing CUA to recognise their shared origin/mother Civilization.

    In other words, I do believe the SU, Kievan Rus and Tzarist Russia are better off split as separate entities. But within the official approach of Civ 6, where alt leaders represent their empires, they should remain a part of the same Civilization.

    The only real downside to Catherine as you've made her, is that her ability is arguably too powerful. Peter's Grand Embassy is rubbish on lower difficulty levels where AI tech leads matter very little. Add an alt leader with a superior ability and you take away any incentive towards using Peter, unless you buff his LUA as well.
     
  20. halfhalfharp

    halfhalfharp Chieftain

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    I suppose... I cannot disagree if you are saying they are from similar era. You have got the point. It will be a nice scene to see Tsardom rulers too. But if I have to vote... it will still go to Catherine haha.
     
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