Catholicism, Orthodoxy and the Apostolic Palace

[Leoreth]

I prefer solutions where there is a causal relationship between events and what is happening in the game, otherwise the player just feels railroaded. Orthodox Sweden is not a problem if previous events played out in a way to justify it, instead the likelihood of such prior events should be low on their own.

 

[calad]

Another option I have is to make Byzantine spawn conditional and when Byzantine spawns Orto. is also spawned, like if Christianity exist/Rome is Christian. This would only apply to 3000 bc. scenario and would be historically very accurate but not railroaded.

Byzantine would be spawned only if:
1. Rome exist
2. Rome is not stable or better (perhabs Byzantine can have a longer conditions to spawn, not just once in 320 AD)
3. Rome controls Constantinople area or Turkey and Greece
4. Christianity exist (maybe this is not needed because it would be very rare but possible)

This would make game a bit more intresting since Orto. would not always spawn but Orto. would always exist in later scenarios.

 

[Hightower]

Another option I have is to make Byzantine spawn conditional and when Byzantine spawns Orto. is also spawned, like if Christianity exist/Rome is Christian. This would only apply to 3000 bc. scenario and would be historically very accurate but not railroaded.

Byzantine would be spawned only if:
1. Rome exist
2. Rome is not stable or better (perhabs Byzantine can have a longer conditions to spawn, not just once in 320 AD)
3. Rome controls Constantinople area or Turkey and Greece
4. Christianity exist (maybe this is not needed because it would be very rare but possible)

This would make game a bit more intresting since Orto. would not always spawn but Orto. would always exist in later scenarios.

The problem with this is that a surviving Western Rome would almost certainly have resulted in something more like Orthodoxy proliferating in its territory. Also weird to offer the conversion to Orthodoxy option to other civs (Ethiopia, plus some chance of Carthage, Babylon, Egypt, etc. being alive and Christian) on one civ's spawn.

 

[Tigranes]

Distribution of the power in the Eastern and Western Europe was the key reason for developing Catholic and Orthodox tradition. Secular authorities in the East where relatively strong and stable. Caesaropapism's chief example is the authority the Byzantine (East Roman) Emperors had over the Church of Constantinople or Eastern Christian Church from the 330 consecration of Constantinople through the tenth century.The Byzantine Emperor would typically protect the Eastern Church and manage its administration by presiding over Ecumenical Councils and appointing Patriarchs and setting territorial boundaries for their jurisdiction. The Emperor exercised a strong control over the ecclesiastical hierarchy, and the Patriarch of Constantinople could not hold office if he did not have the Emperor's approval.

The secular West was more fragmented, unstable and week, and the Church became the main authority the people were relaying upon. For example, Pope Leo was an Italian aristocrat, and was the first pope to have been called "the Great". He is perhaps best known for having met Attila the Hun in 452 and persuading him to turn back from his invasion of Italy.

Spoiler :

Leo was a significant contributor to the centralisation of spiritual authority within the Church and in reaffirming papal authority. The bishop of Rome had gradually become viewed as the chief patriarch in the Western church. Leo would push that authority into a new realm. Not without serious opposition did he succeed in asserting his authority in Gaul. Patroclus of Arles (d. 426) had received from Pope Zosimus the recognition of a subordinate primacy over the Gallican Church which was strongly asserted by his successor Hilary of Arles. An appeal from Chelidonius of Besançon gave Leo the opportunity to assert the pope's authority over Hilary, who defended himself stoutly at Rome, refusing to recognize Leo's judicial status. Feeling that the primatial rights of the bishop of Rome were threatened, Leo appealed to the civil power for support, and obtained from Valentinian III the famous decree of 6 June 445, which recognized the primacy of the bishop of Rome based on the merits of Peter, the dignity of the city, and the legislation of the First Council of Nicaea; and provided for the forcible extradition by provincial governors of any bishop who refused to answer a summons to Rome.[3] Faced with this decree, Hilary submitted to the pope, although under his successor, Ravennius, Leo divided the metropolitan rights between Arles and Vienne (450).

This mod does reflect this situation, when circa 400 AD you see developing Byzantium in the East and bunch of Barbarian/Independent cities (some with Christianity) in the West. This can solve the problem with the schism. Let the fall of the Rome trigger the event, not the AP construction. The moment Rome goes Indy Barbarian, while Orthodox -- it becomes holy Catholic city, and all the Orthodox Indi cities of historical Roman Empires replace Orthodox Cross with Catholic one.

Another more revolutionary solution would be to introduce very special Papal State civilization which will play as one city challenge and have diplomatic, economic and espionage based UHVs.

 

[ezzlar]

I´ll throw in another alternative:

1. Orthodoxy founded by Theology
2. Orthodoxy auto founded in Jerusalem a few years after 0 AD
3. Byzantium becomes an ordinary spawn instead of conditional
4. Catholicism auto founded in Rome at Byzantium spawn
5. No diplo penalties between Catholicism and Orthodoxy
6. Haga Sophia moves Orthodox holy city, available at music or such.
6. Apostolic Palace available by Divine right. Creates the great schism. Diplo penalties. AP should be cheaper and moves Catholic holy city.

Drawbacks: Catholicism just like buddism attaches to another religion. Not too unrealistic but the player will be unable to found catholicism but has to wait for the roman split by the appearence of Byzantium. But it also means no catholicism in China!

I am also unsure when the AP will be built. If it is built around the time of the schism, great, but I fear the AI might be somewhat late in researching Divine Right and building the wonder.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

Well, gameplay quibbles aside; I think we can all agree that Catholicism was basically founded when Satan promised Jesus rule over all the earth. Right? Right?

Though seriously, there's almost no reason ingame to choose Orthodoxy. 2+ hammers for each Catholic building and AP? Far great range of wonders? Starting Catholic Missionary in all Western Europe? No contest.
The diplo penalties are too low for religion generally.

Another more revolutionary solution would be to introduce very special Papal State civilization which will play as one city challenge and have diplomatic, economic and espionage based UHVs.

That would be a lot of fun but I doubt it will be considered. I'd prefer to have Israel 1946 spawn with a 5000% espionage bonus and 1-city challenge, lol.

 

[ezzlar]

The +2 hammers are going according to Leo. But I agree on the wonders.

However. I do a little bit of religion switching now and then to round up some wonders (before getting secularism). There is nothing like faith points that reset at switch to deter you.

Maybe a human switch of religion should involve razing of all temples? A bit rash but...

 

[Leoreth]

Actually I do want to do something like faith points in the future. Not sure if it will be in this version though, because I have a lot of ideas for where they would apply that I need to consolidate first (I don't know much about how they work in RFCE). Maybe a preliminary version of it.

 

[Publicola]

That would be a lot of fun but I doubt it will be considered. I'd prefer to have Israel 1946 spawn with a 5000% espionage bonus and 1-city challenge, lol.

This isn't related to the topic at hand, but I have to admit this sounds amazingly fun. Frankly, between this and the Vatican City idea, I'm actually quite intrigued by the potential for there to be a whole class of civs that don't act like normal civs or affect the game as AI, but give human players the option to play for UHV with specific one-city challenges. Basically, they'd be a Civ IV version of "City States"

• Vatican City (Rome)
• Israel (Jerusalem)
• Venician Republic (Venice)
• Swiss Confederation (Geneva, might require altering the base map in central Europe)
• Panama (Panama City)
• Mississippian People (Cahokia)

This might also be an option if any of the hoped-for civs from other threads don't make it to fully playable status. Whether Central Asian Turks, Kievan Rus, Iroquois Confederacy, ancient Sumeria or the Zulu Kingdom -- just turn them into City-State Challenges and see how they add to the playing experience.

Heck, you could even do this for existing civs. But for its UHV, Tibet would practically be a one-city challenge as it stands now, for instance. And since the only city-states in each game would be the one requested by the player, you'd only need a single civ slot (and Tibet's could easily be borrowed as needed).

 

[Big Heb]

Might as well throw a hat in the ring. There is definitely a general consensus forming, but one problem is how to have the desired outcome (AP in Rome/West, HS in Constantinople/East) occur without the human player. Here is a perspective on how we could do it.

600 AD: Catholicism holy city = Rome, Apostolic Palace prebuilt in Rome, St. Peter's Basilica prebuilt in Rome, Orthodoxy holy city = Constantinople, Hagia Sophia prebuilt in Constantinople, Church of the Holy Sepulcher prebuilt in Jerusalem

3000 BC:
- Christianity is founded by first to discover Theology. If no civilization has discovered Theology by 40 AD, it is automatically founded in Jerusalem.
- Church of the Holy Sepulcher is automatically built in Jerusalem in 325 AD. Church of the Holy Sepulcher acts as a shrine for all three Christian religions; controlling it grants +2 happiness to each city depending on the state religion of the civ that controls it (no happiness if Islam, Secularism, etc.; +2 happiness to all cities with Orthodoxy for civs that have Orthodoxy as a state religion if controlled by a civ holding Orthodoxy as state religion; same as Orthodoxy for Catholicism and Protestantism). The bonus itself could change, but this retains Jerusalem as the holy city of Christianity despite the shrines of individual sects being in different cities.
- Once one of these three conditions is met, Catholicism is founded:
- Apostolic Palace is built. If built by Byzantium, it means the dominant form of political Christianity is Orthodoxy, in an alternate history scenario. If built by Rome, it means dominant political form of Christianity in Middle Ages is Catholicism, per history.
- Western Roman Empire collapses. Once this happens, all non-core possessions of Western Rome flip to Byzantines, and southern Italy (Neapolis, Rhegium, Pompeii, etc.) flips to Byzantines. Large stack of longbowmen spawn in Rome. Catholicism is automatically founded in Rome, Apostolic Palace is automatically built in Rome, St. Peter's Basilica is automatically built in Rome. Christianity is renamed to Orthodoxy, and the holy city moves to Constantinople. Hagia Sophia is automatically built in Constantinople. Church of the Holy Sepulcher stays in Jerusalem.
- In 553 AD (Second Council of Constantinople), Christianity is renamed to Orthodoxy and the holy city is moved to Constantinople. The Hagia Sophia is automatically built in Constantinople. In 1014 AD (Great Schism), Catholicism is founded in Rome. St. Peter's Basilica is automatically built in Rome. All Western cities and civs automatically convert from Orthodoxy to Catholicism.

 

[Leoreth]

I think I'll stick with the Church of the Holy Sepulcher as the initial shrine of Christianity, i.e. it will become the new Orthodox shrine.

That means the Hagia Sophia will become a wonder again. I don't think the old effect is very useful or fitting, so maybe we can come up with something better. Thematically, the Hagia Sophia represents the unification of spiritual and secular authority in the hands of the Byzantine emperor. The building itself is also one of the most impressive examples of late classical or medieval architecture.

I think it should combine religion with administration, for instance:
- free Courthouse for all cities with state religion
- state religion cathedrals count as centers of government

Other ideas?

 

[Ani Taneen]

- state religion cathedrals count as centers of government

I feel like this effect captures the special position Constantinople/Istanbul had for the empires that formed there.

Maybe: Cathedrals have two statesmen slots?


There is one wonder That I would like to also Add while we are on this subject:

"Santa Maria Rotonda" Req. Theology, Req Orthodoxy or Catholicism.
Classical Wonders can be built with Organized Religion or Polytheism.
Obsolete with Code of Law.
+50% with Marble

This wonder will allow any Roman, Greek, Carthaginian, or even a Persian Civ that adopts Christianity to build the classical wonders. This represents the christianization of pagan sites and becomes obsolete with a tech that is basic to every European civ from the Vikings onward.

 

[Leoreth]

Maybe: Cathedrals have two statesmen slots?

Seems too limited in application in my opinion. Maybe priests to statesmen slots, analogous to the Wat Preah Pisnulok effect? Or give great prophets the ability to resolve a crisis similar to what the Sphinx does?

 

[Ani Taneen]

Seems too limited in application in my opinion. Maybe priests to statesmen slots, analogous to the Wat Preah Pisnulok effect? Or give great prophets the ability to resolve a crisis similar to what the Sphinx does?

Given the architecture aspect, maybe the Wat Preah Pisnulok, but with engineers. As for the Great prophets, I'd do both the resolve conflict and the change civics abilities.

 

[merijn_v1]

What about this?:
State religion buildings (temple, monastery, cathedral) reduce the city maintenance (like courthouse) by 5% when controlling the HS.

Alternatives:
- Instead of all state religion buildings, it could also be applied to just one of them. (But the reduction is bigger)
- The maintenance reduction can be different for each building. Like 5% for temple, 10% for monastery and 15% for cathedral.

 

[calad]

Hagia Sofia could help to prevent collapse and increases stability, this would present how both Byzantine and Ottoman Empires were very stable despite multiple of catastrophes over centuries.

 

[Leoreth]

What about this?:
State religion buildings (temple, monastery, cathedral) reduce the city maintenance (like courthouse) by 5% when controlling the HS.

Alternatives:
- Instead of all state religion buildings, it could also be applied to just one of them. (But the reduction is bigger)
- The maintenance reduction can be different for each building. Like 5% for temple, 10% for monastery and 15% for cathedral.

The free courthouse is going in that direction. I prefer that because it does not increase the overall maintenance reduction available.

 

[BenZL43]

OK this might be a stupid question, or perhaps a redundant one...

Why should Catholicism and Orthodoxy are differentiated in-game? Was the aim to show diplomatic penalty between Byzantine & Rome, between Russia etc and Western Europe?
Which Orthodoxy church are being represented, the one who reject Calchedon council or who accept? The one in communion with Roman Catholic church, or the otherwise?

Spoiler :

I'm not trying to propose or give any suggestion right now.. I don't know much about history of the church - neither my Catholic church nor the Orthodox church. The more I read (for references) the more I get confused .___.

 

[phoenix_sprite]

Couldn't the Hagia Sophia just take the AP's old bonus of +2 hammers for state religion buildings but be exclusive to the civ who controls it?

 

[Leoreth]

Couldn't the Hagia Sophia just take the AP's old bonus of +2 hammers for state religion buildings but be exclusive to the civ who controls it?

Huh, good idea. Why didn't I think of that.