Cavaleiros Embassy & Intelligence

[Provolution]

I think we should land on NAP for turn 50-100, which is a round and good number.
There should be a Alphabet tech trade for their Monarchy before the end of the NAP.
An extension of this agreement would be another tech trade per 25 turns, renewed with NAPS. Resource deals may also come into place if we have spare resources.

 

[donsig]

I am lost as well. If we continue chatting with Oyzar then more and more of us will get more and more lost. We really need to limit our communications with all other teams to just emails. All this chatting is going to confuse lots of issues on all sides. What are we really gaining by all this chatter? We've learned nothing except the foreign work boat left home around turn 30. Oyzar isn't going to give us any information of value.

We should certainly make it clear to Cavaleiros that their boat is not welcome within our borders and that we would take a declaration of war very seriously. We should not make threats we cannot back up but let them know for sure that a DOW would hamper future relations between us.

I am for requesting a short non-aggression pact as suggested by CommandoBob, and any agreement should include a no DOW clause.

I also prefer to make a concrete tech offer (like alphabet for monarchy or whatever) rather than a comprehensive swap with gifting involved. We hardly know these guys yet! I am against telling them what we've researched. Why give them the information when they give us none?

 

[Sommerswerd]

We do not want Cav making contact to our East, that opens up the possibility of those two teams ganging up long-term against us. The longer we can put off contact the better!

We need to enforce this, either by getting a galley from sailing asap, or by bluffing them we got a galley. Somehow we need to enforce this.

I want them to turn their boat around. If we are firm enough I think we can accomplish this. Bottom line is we need to stand up for ourselves... workboat maneuver is tantamount to throwing down the guantlet

We should certainly make it clear to Cavaleiros that their boat is not welcome within our borders and that we would take a declaration of war very seriously.

I agree with all these statements. I think it it appropriate to ask if we have a majority in favor of stopping Cavalieros from making contact east? I think we do and suggest we consider sailing after mysticism so that we can whip or build a Galley. To me, preventing them from making contact to our east is worth chasing down Cavalieros' work boat, even after it has sailed past our capital...

We should tell Cavalieros that they MUST NOT enter our borders, and keep our current research path until they actually violate border. At that point I would say switch to sailing and then build galley. The galley should easily be able to chase down their work boat and sink it, before they make contact east.

We want him to believe they are the only ones that sent out a work boat to scout. I also got a clever ploy for handling the work boat situation down the road.

I find it implausible that anyone with a coastal city did not send out a workboat. In multiplayer people always send out workboats. Even the AI sends out scout workboats so I doubt he was fooled... however Provo seems to know Oyzar better then the rest of us so maybe Oyzar is that foolish...

Also, as I have already said, Oyzar is not the only one who needs to be fooled, everyone on Cavalieros would have to be too dumb to realize that every team sent out a scoutboat.

What is this clever ploy? What reason could you have for keeping it a secret you sneaky devil, you

 

[Kaleb]

I think we should land on NAP for turn 50-100, which is a round and good number.
There should be a Alphabet tech trade for their Monarchy before the end of the NAP.

What is wrong with agreeing on an NAP that starts right now and includes them not passing through our borders?

On This Tech Trade
For now, just to sell the idea of good tech trading, let's offer Alpahbet for Monarchy (tech trade this time, no gifting to the Cavs and hoping they return the favor (at least, not yet)) and one more tech trade past that point but by Turn 125 (?). (Not sure about that turn number. It is a best-guess, based that on the fact that the Alphabet/Monarchy tech trade is to be done by Turn 100.) We should offer a suggestion to them on the second tech trade.

On Communication
We need a letter to the Cavs explaining what we are offering. Then we can refer Oyzar back to that letter whenever he brings it up. It is going to cramp his style a bit, but he willl get over it. (Nothing like trimming the wings on a young, hotshot whippersnapper! )

I keep asking Oyzar to communicate via email and he keeps sending me pms! I'm going to start messaging other people in his team to ask for an email channel.

We need to enforce this, either by getting a galley from sailing asap, by having a strong diplomacy (we still need to agree on a position right now) or by bluffing them we got a galley. Somehow we need to enforce this.

I don't think bluffing we have a galley will work at all tbh.

I agree with all these statements. I think it it appropriate to ask if we have a majority in favor of stopping Cavalieros from making contact east? I think we do and suggest we consider sailing after mysticism so that we can whip or build a Galley. To me, preventing them from making contact to our east is worth chasing down Cavalieros' work boat, even after it has sailed past our capital...

We should tell Cavalieros that they MUST NOT enter our borders, and keep our current research path until they actually violate border. At that point I would say switch to sailing and then build galley. The galley should easily be able to chase down their work boat and sink it, before they make contact east.

A galley has 2 just like the workboat, so if it's passed it's passed.

however Provo seems to know Oyzar better then the rest of us so maybe Oyzar is that foolish...

I doubt it Oyzar is that easily duped

This is the latest I got from Oyzar in PM:

I already proposed a deal to mars... you guys tech writing -> alpha next and we tech priesthood -> monarchy then we trade something like hunting/ah/writing/alpha vs myst/med/priesthood/monarchy.. Myst + poly(that is assuming you'll even get it) is roughly 200 extra beakers. Assuming you guys keep on expanding at a decent rate you won't do a lot over 20 bpt in 20-30 turns from now hence monarchy will arrive 10 turns later(since alpha arrive 10 turns later). If you alter your tech choices to not synergize with ours we also have to do other things probably, so we also get monarchy later...

 

[donsig]

I think we do and suggest we consider sailing after mysticism so that we can whip or build a Galley. To me, preventing them from making contact to our east is worth chasing down Cavalieros' work boat, even after it has sailed past our capital...

Not sure I'd go this far. If they declare war and sail past I think we should just let them go and stick to our expansion plans. We gain nothing by sinking their workboat. I think the way to prevent the DOW is make it clear there will be no near future deals between us and Cavaleiros.

EDIT: The Oyzar to Kaleb outline of the proposed deal sounds ok. It looks like it's basically alphabet for monarchy with room for both sides to do other tings on the way. We can tell them we're interested, but I'm not so sure we should commit just yet. We'll be meeting someone else with our own workboat so let's keep our options open.

 

[Kaleb]

Btw, I logged in and can confirm that Team Cav have only made contact with us so far.

 

[Provolution]

It is a big gamble by putting the DOW vs the passage of the work boat. The diplomatic damage to us will be great, unless we manage to convince the NE civ how bad Cavaleiros is.

But I think we can ask for a NA Treaty as a minimum to gain trust (remember, we need to sell this, not to be seen as hostile and rigid) for a duration of 30-50 turns (we will not be capable of making an attack in that period anyways), ideally 50 turns. We should state that if the NA Treaty is in place, we can agree to a Alphabet vs. Monarchy swop within turn 100, which is quite doable from where I stand.

 

[Kaleb]

I'm happy to agree on Alphabet for Monarchy. But not sure on the rest of the proposal. Can we at least tell them we agree to Alpha for Monarchy?

Oyzar's suggestion of Hunting+AH+Writing+Alpha for Myst+Med+Priest+Monarchy is 835 for 730 anyway. So no thanks to that deal!

 

[Provolution]

So, to summarize:

We want a non-aggression treaty with a clause that prohibits a declaration of war (that means crossing our coast, which again causes them war weariness, need to calculate that cost in this era). We also want a trade with our Alphabet vs. their Monarchy before turn 100 (which is realistic, given our long worklist), on a beaker to beaker basis. Finally, we would like a long term open border agreement with some surplus resource trades. If these "trials" work out, we may want to extend the cooperation past turn 100.

Is this something we can propose them?

 

[donsig]

Guys, I think we are jumping the gun by agreeing to an alphabet for monarchy trade right away. Let's just tell them for now that we're interested. We may meet someone else in a few turns. Let's keep our options open.

 

[Provolution]

Donsig, you need to give us a leg here, we need to sell in something, our relations will sour very quickly. It is ok to be stern, adamant and all that. If they accept a NAT and that particular tech trade within turn 100, I will vote for it. I am against having no diplomatic traction at all, that is plain stupid.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Not sure I'd go this far. If they declare war and sail past I think we should just let them go and stick to our expansion plans. We gain nothing by sinking their workboat.

You're right that assuming they will DOW and switching to sailing is a bit much... However you'll see that I also mentioned waiting for them to actually breach our borders to make the switch to sailing. I think sinking their workboat is critical because they prob only have one. If we sink it, they are forced to deal with us, while we can deal with them or our neighbors to the NE, giving us a HUGE advantage.

If we let them go through, they will also know our neighbors to the NE so we gain no advantage. Even worse, they may enter into a deal and leave us out in the cold. Worse than that, they might have sent out TWO workboats, one in each direction which would give them 3 potential trading partners while we only have one. That would mean they would lap us in tech pretty quickly making us obsolete and an easy target. We should sink that workboat if it enters borders. Sinking their workboat is a small thing, honestly, especially if they are the ones who DOWed us after we warned them not to.

 

[Provolution]

Ok, try to calculate if we can get sailing researched in 3 turns and a workboat slaved in 1-2 turns, for us to sink it. It is simply not doable.

Sommerswerd, its ok you are enthusiastic and all that, and want to kill etc. But see this from a more strategic level. We cannot get that galley in time, we are neighboring them. If we start out bad with them, we have one guaranteed enemy, and we lose diplomatic options. We are to have some proposal up and a vote, as we are moving in all directions and I see no consensus coming soon.

What I do not want is for us to be like headless chickens running in all directions as Cavaleiros are reaching a decision on how to deal with us.

anyone dig the proposed agreement, yes or no? No messing around please.

 

[Jimmy369]

What would be the tech/whip time in order to produce a galley? If we are going to destroy their workboat we need to do it at that time. I vote that we should destroy their workboat if possible if they break the an agreement. In order for that to be viable we need to have a firm offer. I think that a NAP until turn 100 is fair and that the tech trade of alpahbet for monarchy before turn 100 is also good. The Cavaleiros are the second strongest team right now according to score and we want to be their allies. This is my proposal for our NAP agreement.

Greetings and Salutations Cavaleiros!
Our people deem that several proposals might be of mutual benefit to both of our glorious nations. Our people propose that their should be a mutual non-aggression pact between our two nations until Turn 100. No declarations of war may be made by either side until this time. Repercussions will be made if war is declared even for the expedient of movement. We are also interested in a trade of Alphabet for Monarchy before turn 100. Other technologies may be exchanged as circumstances deem fit. Our people are also interested in the potential of several resource exchanges when surplus resources are available. For now, our people offer your citizens total peace until turn 100 and a trade of Alphabet for Monarchy before the non-aggression treaty expires. We would research Alphabet, while you research Monarchy. When both technologies are researched we would make a trade.

If we are going to enforce our borders, we need to make an agreement quickly.

 

[cav scout]

Even if we switch to sailing now and whip a galley there is no way to catch their workboat. If Team Cav makes contact with the team to our east we face a war on two fronts. We have to stop them with strong diplomatic language.

There can be no talk of deals until Team Cav states in no uncertain terms that they will not transit our territory with their workboat. One thing at at time guys.

If we keep talking to Team Cav about all the profitable tech trades possibilities then Oyzar won't take our warning seriously... and speaking of a warning have we even sent one? Time is running out to impress upon them that they need to turn around.

 

[Provolution]

Ok, I want to get the following clarified:

"Should we send them a warning that no further technology, trade, intelligence sharing and strategic cooperation can be made, if they do not stop their workboat outside our borders and return. If they decide to agree on returning their workboat, we will agree to a Non-Aggression Treaty until turn 100, and agree to research Alphabet against Monarchy, and then consider remaining deals on a beaker to beaker basis, as well as open for resource trades and eventually an open border agreement" ?

Someone should research what the war weariness will cost the side that declares a war in this era.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Sommerswerd, its ok you are enthusiastic and all that, and want to kill etc. But see this from a more strategic level.

I'm sure that this was not your intent Provo, but the above sounds a little condescending. My interest is not to "kill kill kill". I am interested in putting us in the best strategic position possible. I tried to explain that in my prior posts.

Provo, I understand that Oyzar is your friend and I have tried to be respectful of that. Frankly, I think you are outmatched, as far as what I can tell from the chat logs and at this point your conversations with him have not benefitted us strategically (if anything they have damaged us).

As I have said before, you obviously can talk to Oyzar about whatever you want, and I understand you being "enthusiastic" about talking to a friend about the game. It must be very exciting for the very first team we meet to be captained by your friend. I'm sure it is irresistable to chat with him about the game. That is probably part of the reason you usurped the position of Foreign Minister that was clearly designated for Donsig by inventing a new office of "Ambassador to Cavalieros".

Please try to appreciate your own embedded bias towards friendly relations with Cavalieros because of the fact that Oyzar is your friend. "Do not be clouded by your personal feelings young Padawan." Cavalieros are a rival, we will eventually have to compete with them we don't have to make them our primary allies just because we met them first... Sorry

As to your proposal... I am agreeable to tell them we are INTERESTED in trading Writing for Monarchy, without an actual commitment to do so. I also want a no DOW agreement and 20-30 turn NAP. To everything else I would say no at this time.

I will run tests on the Galley question...

 

[Provolution]

Thank you for your hostility Sommerswerd, you are the one that has been condescending all the time along. I have managed to figure out a lot of their intentions by not surrendering anything but trading capital tile distances, they would know anyways 5 turns later. Also, Oyzar is not a friend per se, but someone I have played several multiplayer games with, to clarify that. Some of us has done that before.

I would not say the chats have damaged us. I have gotten out their intentions. Obviously, Oyzar is not prone to anything but chat, which is his problem. If we did not engage him in dialogue, we would have no clue, and they would simply stumble through our waters.

Also, for the ambassadorship, we agreed on that position beforehand. Donsig wrote a nice note we posted to them. I know from several other games that if diplomacy goes to slow, the option is lost.

Your galley question is already lost, attacking me is not going to change that. If we go sailing now, we have forfeited any go for religion, as it costs 6 turns.

Of course, if we can get no consensus, we need to poll this. Since our relation is somewhat strained, I would ask Kaleb or Cavscout to post that poll.

 

[Provolution]

Oyzar posted me this:

well we obviously can't trade before we get the techs... and since this is a trade with a huge amount of prereqs(btw can you confirm what techs you have yet), it needs to be staged in several steps/turns anyways, which involves quite a lot of trust. If your team is unable to trust i have a hard time seeing how you can cooperate with us(or anyone for that matter)

This means, if we are running a rigid and hostile diplomacy, they will not work with us.

if we aren't gonna chat how the hell are we gonna cooperate???
or they think that cooperating is bad too?

 

[cav scout]

We need a carrot and stick approach:

"Greetings Team Cavalieros: We are very interested in a trade of Alphabet for Monarchy as well as other profitable trades. However, any talk of beneficial interaction between our teams must be postponed until we address the prospect of your proposed border incursion with your workboat.

We cherish our territorial sovereignty and any incursion would be seen in the harshest light. Relations between our two teams would be severely damaged if you fail to respect the integrity of our borders.

We are awaiting your assurance that you will respect our sovereignty and turn you workboat back when you reach our borders. We look forward to resuming profitable trade discussions as soon as you affirm your honorable intentions."

This is unpolished but something like this needs to be sent and responed to before we play our next turn.