Cavaleiros Embassy & Intelligence

[donsig]

Sommers, I don't respond to most of your points simply because I stopped reading most of your posts long ago. I have no desire to argue over what went into the note - you've sent it, nothing can change that and there are oh so many more things to argue about.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Spoiler :

Dear CavKaz brothers:

We are very happy to see Cavalieros' exponential growth. However, our team has become increasingly worried that the fundamental premise of balance of power that has been the backbone of our alliance is becoming irreversibly skewed. As the western end of the CavKaz alliance grows, unfettered by SANCTA, the eastern side is threatened.

Our CavKaz alliance has recently been placed in jeopardy by the recent SANCTA attacks. We are therefore desperately in need of action to be taken to re-establish the balance-of-power between us. This will help the entire CavKaz alliance by enabling us to push SANCTA out of CavKaz land.

Towards this end, we propose that you gift us the four (4) closest cities to our borders so that we have enough cities to build an army and press the conflict with SANCTA. Once we have cleared the SANCTA dogs from our lands, we can re-asses the balance of power and re-divide our CavKaz cities as appropriate. We are also willing to return your gifted cities to you outright, once the SANCTA threat has been beaten back.

We also request that you gift us a battle group of units to fight SANCTA. This can be accomplished by moving the units into the territory of the gifted cities. We are happy to return your forces to you, once SANCTA has been sufficiently beaten back. We further request that you immediately declare war on the SANCTA enemies.

We hope that Cavalieros is willing to continue maintaining a balance of power in the CavKaz. We hope that we have performed as true friends to our West CavKaz brothers in the past, and that we will continue to support each other in the future. As you are aware, our alliance has lasted well beyond the original agreed obligatory period (Turn 115), a true testament to our commitment to each other.

We are happy to formally accept your proposal for a balance-of-power alliance, if that is the primary obstacle to your full co-operation to destroy SANCTA. We are therefore willing to sign your proposed treaty with the sole addition of a clause preventing either of us from declaring war on a third party without the other's consent. Please be advised that we have always felt that our conduct (ie. tech gifting) was a constructive acceptance of the balance of power arrangement, so we did not feel that a formal agreement was needed. However, if ink on the page puts our CavKaz brothers at ease, we are most pleased to oblige, as always.


We are confident that you will aid us as requsted, so that our glorious alliance can continue forward, even stronger than before. We look forward to your response, and will wait to hear from you, prior to further alliance-related action on our part.

Sommerswerd of Kazakhstan

Message was sent to Cavalieros via email.

 

[Indiansmoke]

The note has been sent now, no point arguing over it, we did need to say something to Cav and this note says more or less what we wanted to say (even though I don't agree to the demanding of city gifting)...the manner is not what we all wanted but Sommer has a point that if we waited for all of us to agree we would never send anything again.

In any case we can have some chats with them and rectify and misunderstundings because of the tone.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Spoiler :

To Sommerswerd and Team Kazakhstan:

We asked for a balance of power agreement some 50 turns ago; you delayed, obfuscated and refused to sign any such thing. Now that you are no longer in the more advantageous position of the two of us, you wish to correct your mistake, at our expense and that of the alliance as a whole. What’s more, you hold our informal tech-sharing agreement and any chance at liberalism hostage in the bargain.

We of Team Cavaleiros find this completely unacceptable.

The way forward is and has been clear. We must relieve SANCTA of their forward territory and transfer it to you. The devil, as always, has been in the details, and we admit to a certain lack of decisiveness on that score. That must be amended. But the way to do so is not to threaten us, hold our own future hostage, and consign our alliance to a worse-than-zero-sum result even if we accept the demands. Offer us something more moderate, and we will work with you to make it happen.

We await your proposal.

Sincerely,
Renata dos Cavaleiros for Team Cavaleiros

We recieved a response PM from Renata. It basically says...

1. Your proposal is unacceptable
2. We offered balance of power a long time ago and you guys never accepted it
3. Now we are better off than you and you come crawling back to us
4. We are angry that you are holding back tech (and delaying Liberalism)
5. We propose that we (Cav) should attack SANCTA and give their cities to you (Kaz)
6. Negotiate with yourselves (ie. we don't like your proposal, send another one)

So the bottom line is... Cavalieros is offering to attack SANCTA, take their Southwestern cities, and gift them to us. We need to fashion a response to Cavalieros that outlines how we propose to make this happen and when. ,

Again, this needs to happen swiftly. Anyone care to draft the response? Or should I do it?

 

[mikotian]

Ok well that's a start. I think our demands should be very, very specific. I agree with Indiansmoke that the city gifting might be somewhat unfeasible... (we can't defend the cities even if they give them right away. They will end up as ripe targets for Sancta)

This is not perfect but I think it gets us MOST of what we want:
1) Cav must assemble an assault force comprised of units with base hammer value of at least xyz in ? turns. I suggest 800 hammers in 10 turns. That's depending on the troop mix, maybe 10-12? decent soldiers which should be doable.

2) Cav's must declare war on Sancta within a maximum of 10 turns and Cav's entire offensive army, comprised of at least 800 hammers, must be inside Sancta's Western territories in 15 turns. This army should proceed to attack TKY as quickly as possible, unless there is a pressing tactical need otherwise.

3) Upon the conquest of the first Sancta city, Cav will gift said city to Kaz. The following turn, Cav will gift entire offensive army, which should be garrisoned in the city, to Kaz. Kaz will then pursue the war.

4) Within 15 turns of the war's start, Cav will produce no less than 1,000 additional hammers of soldiers, which should be marched into the nearest conquered Sancta city and gifted to Kaz as these soldiers are produced, barring a tactical threat otherwise. The soldiers should have a mix of abilities and attributes conducive to offensive warfare but their exact composition shall be mutually decided depending on need.

5) Cav will use best efforts to build a road connecting Cav's empire to Sancta's empire as soon as possible. This should preferably start within 3 turns but it's up to Cav's tactical discretion.

6) If very large amount of Sancta territory has been conquered, Kaz is happy to revisit balance of power at the end of hostilities with Sancta and gift Cav any extra cities as necessary to maintain said balance. This should be negotiated in good faith.


Unfortunately Donsig is right about 1 thing: Cav does not have an army. This means we have to give Cav time, which also allows Cav plenty of time to double cross us. Ugh.

 

[Indiansmoke]

As expected really, I would worry if they agreed to our proposal!

I suggest we send back a letter saying that they are right, that our letter was written in a hurry and that all we want from them is to help us attack Sancta, and that since they have not been showing any signs of wanting to do that we thought we press them in an admitably wrong way.

 

[Kaleb]

Argh. This was done in a rush. Why are we trying to hold team Cav over a barrel? I would also be annoyed if I was them and I got this message.

1) We don't want Cav to gift us cities now, we want the cities later on. it's better that one civ has the high maintenance so we get a better cost efficiency on our beakers.

2) We want Cav to declare war when they have an army. The longer SANCTA think that Cav are just going to sit back and grow while we struggle on our own the better.

3) Why do Cav need to gift us an army? Better again that they pay for the maintenance. unless of course we are talking about Rifles

4) SANCTA's land is quite spread out and not very well connected at the moment. We can take advantage of this by pressurising their centre point, Phoenix, and Cav doing naval raids with Carracks and later Galleons.

 

[Indiansmoke]

On second thought I am getting very tired of all this crap!

Cav present us with a ridiculus proposal, we stall argying, then we go back to them with another ridiculus proposal and in the meantime they have 9 cities more than us!

I say screw them, let them tech Edu and philo themselves and screw Sancta as well! Lets talk to MS and Saturn...the 3 hopeless teams aliance!

What do you say?

 

[damnrunner]

While we did not formally accept your initial balance of power proposal, game play from that point forward has shown tacit agreement to the substance most of the treaty (sharing of all technology, mutual tech goals, general cooperation). Our understanding was that the “balance” you were most concerned about was technological (where we have a comparative advantage) – we have always been more concerned about a “balance” with respect to growth (where you have the advantage). So far our team has been very accommodating on the technological side and continues to contribute the most to the alliance in this respect.

For that reason we have decided to use our technology as a bargaining tool. We used the old terms of balance of power as it was a pre-existing framework for discussion. But that said, our proposal was very hastily written and was sent before being fully vetted.

Our proposal was the gifting of cities. You offered military aid. This would be very welcome, but we would like some specifics of what you are offering. We propose…. Go into details of X uints in Z turns. We should also ask that they focus on attacking Sancta rather than sending a few units and continuing to focus on expand their own empire. We should also request that they provid aid for a given period of time or until certain objectives are met.

As to Kaleb’s post. Yes coastal raiding would be a effective, but it won’t give us the cities we need (they would be hard to hold and defend). Also Team Cav is far away and any navy they send our way will 1st have to be built and will ten have to sail ½ way around the world. As to paying for maintenance, our problem is we can’t build units fast enough. That is why we need their help.

A combined army attacking towards TKY could be hugely effective. Team Cav now has roads all the way to the border and could very quickly (less than 5 turns) move units up to the front line.

 

[Sommerswerd]

While we did not formally accept your initial balance of power proposal, game play from that point forward has shown tacit agreement to the substance most of the treaty (sharing of all technology, mutual tech goals, general cooperation). Our understanding was that the “balance” you were most concerned about was technological (where we have a comparative advantage) – we have always been more concerned about a “balance” with respect to growth (where you have the advantage). So far our team has been very accommodating on the technological side and continues to contribute the most to the alliance in this respect.

For that reason we have decided to use our technology as a bargaining tool. We used the old terms of balance of power as it was a pre-existing framework for discussion. But that said, our proposal was very hastily written and was sent before being fully vetted.

Our proposal was the gifting of cities. You offered military aid. This would be very welcome, but we would like some specifics of what you are offering. We propose….

I think Damnrunners language is a great starting point for a reply to Renata's PM. I think our response should also be in the form of a PM (Maybe just addressed to Renata).

If they can't at very least give some specifics about what units, and when, then they are just BSing us, and I am with Smoke... forget about Cavalieros, we just have to deal with SANCTA on our own, either through all out war, or an alliance then a .

 

[cav scout]

Big chat with CAV:

Spoiler :

oyzar: hi
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: hi
Rune: hello
Nancy: hi
Jon: hi
Nancy: ack, four of us and one cavscout?
Nancy: that's hardly even odds
: Morgan has joined the conversation.
oyzar: ok 5 vs 1 then
Jon: no one else from my team ever comes on here lol
Nancy: lol
Morgan: another 1
oyzar: kaleb is on sometimes
oyzar: i have seen indiansmoke on here when he really wants to speak to me as well
Morgan: cavsout is Kaz?
Jon: yes
Morgan: wtf are you guys playing at? are you sabotaging the game for SANCTA to win?
Nancy: do you have any response for us at this time?
Nancy: morgan, settle down
Morgan: i think it's a fair question.
Nancy: i know you just saw the PM, but we went through this all a couple of days ago among ourselves
Jon: we do have a response in the works
Morgan: ok. sorry.
Nancy: can you tell us unofficially what will be in it?
Jon: well give me a minute to check my forum
: Morgan has left the conversation.
Jon: so I'm sure you guys can tell for our earlier letter that things finally came to boil our forum
Jon: that letter was rushed off and we probably could have approached the whole issue in a better way so as not to alarm you guys
Jon: there was a strong feeling in our forum though that you guys have been leading us on this whole time regarding SANCTA
Jon: and we wanted to press you on helping us in a concrete fashion vs vague reassurances
Nancy: you really chose the wrong way to go about it
Nancy: that PM resulted in some very strong feelings
Nancy: oyzar's been running this team pretty much by himself for the last couple of months, until just recently, and he did not feel committing to things he could not effectively discuss with teammates. i do understand why your team is frustrated, but good lord that was harsh
Jon: well there are some strong feelings on our side as well, feeling that had been building up
Jon: there was one chat in particular that brought things to a boil and made us question your good faith
Jon: things got heated in our forum and the result was the note that you got
Nancy: all right.
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: which chat was it?
Nancy: how do you plan to move on from here?
Nancy: do you understand what we are requesting?
Jon: if im right you guys are asking for a different proposal from us
Nancy: well, yes, but there are a lot of ways to be "different"
Nancy: we will not give up huge chunks of our own territory to redress the imbalance of power. it has to come at SANCTA's expense. and we expect the required techs for lib to be transferred this turn, so we keep any chance we have at that -- anything else is biting off your nose to spite your face
Jon: well we would discontinue our relationship with you guys our of spite
Jon: wouldnt i mean!
Nancy: heh
Jon: lol
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: not lol :O
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF:
Rune: freudian slip?
Rune: (jk)
: Paulus has joined the conversation.
Jon: if we parted ways it wouldnt be because of spite, i assure you
Nancy: i really think the ball's in your court,
Nancy: i hope we've made clear what our expectations are
Jon: well yeah i suppose you could say it's in our court... and we could shoot for one net or the other
Jon: but on the other hand you could say that the ball is in your court
Jon: because we made a concrete proposal
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: but only if you ignore the fact that we sent a concrete rejection
Rune: that wasn't much of a proposal
Rune: and you know it
Nancy: brb, don't give away the farm in my absense
Jon: well if our rememdy doesnt work for you guys we were hoping you would come back with something constructive that would
Nancy: your remedy was too harsh. we all unanimously saw it as an extremely provoking PM, and the remedy one that would hurt he pair of us collectively even more than remaining with the status quo. it was so harsh many of us guessed it was a calculated attempt to push us out of the alliance.
Nancy: we considered offering our own proposals in return, but ultimately though that shorter was better. the essential part is there: we work together to recover your power at sancta's expense, rather than at ours or (inevitably) at that of the alliance as a whole
Nancy: brb again
: Paulus has left the conversation.
Jon: well since we have alot of people here I will take the initiative to cut and paste the draft reply we are working on in our forum
Nancy: ok
Jon: While we did not formally accept your initial balance of power proposal, game play from that point forward has shown tacit agreement to the substance most of the treaty (sharing of all technology, mutual tech goals, general cooperation). Our understanding was that the “balance” you were most concerned about was technological (where we have a comparative advantage) –
Jon: we have always been more concerned about a “balance” with respect to growth (where you have the advantage). So far our team has been very accommodating on the technological side and continues to contribute the most to the alliance in this respect.


Jon: For that reason we have decided to use our technology as a bargaining tool. We used the old terms of balance of power as it was a pre-existing framework for discussion. But that said, our proposal was very hastily written and was sent before being fully vetted.


Jon: Our proposal was the gifting of cities. You offered military aid. This would be very welcome, but we would like some specifics of what you are offering.
Nancy: is anyone who's better at CIV willing to step in at this point?
Nancy: i can't discuss military issues with any confidence
Nancy: we keep going around in circles. attack teh cities nearest you? attack overseas with optics? use lib for this that or the other thing? wait for rifles?
Nancy: there are too many options
Nancy: what does KAZ expect? what would do it, that we can agree to and still keep our own self-respect?
: Jon has left the conversation.
Nancy: great
: Jon has joined the conversation.
oyzar: he is back
Jon: sorry guys, lost my internet there for a sex
Nancy: ok
Jon: sec lol
Nancy: what's the last thing you saw?
Jon: just that you were asking for the more military experienced players to comment lol
Nancy: ok
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: [20:04] Nancy: we keep going around in circles. attack teh cities nearest you? attack overseas with optics? use lib for this that or the other thing? wait for rifles?
[20:04] Nancy: there are too many options
[20:04] Nancy: what does KAZ expect? what would do it, that we can agree to and still keep our own self-respect?
Nancy: what he said
Jon: well how soon could you take TKY?
Nancy: i have no idea
Nancy: anyone, please?
Nancy: discussing ...
oyzar: how soon we could take TKY depends on how well sancta defends it...
Jon: well i sent you screens a few turns ago showing some of the forces they have in the area
Jon: we would attack at the same time of course
Jon: and tie up some of those troops
Jon: what forces do you guys have available right now?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: very few
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: whatever we can whip
Jon: you dont have anything on your frontier with SANCTA?
oyzar: hmm
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF: defensive units - no use in attacking
oyzar: seems like everyone got booted from this convo by msn
oyzar: i'll restart it

 

[cav scout]

Part 2:

Spoiler :

oyzar says:
lets try again
Rune says:
here!
Jon says:
k im here
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
hi
Nancy says:
present
Rune says:
but know nothing that happened the last 20 minutes
Nancy says:
s'ok, not much has
Nancy says:
Jon has implied he woudl like to capture TKY as soon as possible; is that accurate?
Jon says:
yes
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
we're trying to coordinate wrt sancta
Jon says:
we would like to see you DoW and cross into SANCTA land no later than 15 turns
Nancy says:
ok sancta has a couple of longbows and a couple of spears there
Nancy says:
what do you have to bring?
Jon says:
with an offensive stack worth at least 800 hammers
Jon says:
seize TKY, gift it to us
Jon says:
then gift the stack
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
lol
Jon says:
and we carry on the fight
oyzar says:
you know we are imp and you guys are not right?
Jon says:
not right?
Nancy says:
not, right?
oyzar says:
not, right
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
not imp
Jon says:
ah yeah of course

Morgan has been added to the conversation.

Jon says:
might explain why you have twice as many cities lol
oyzar says:
I ment the GG part of imp
Jon says:
oh well if you want to gift us GGs that would be good too
Jon says:
what...no ones laughing? lol

Morgan has left the conversation.

ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
we're discussing
Jon says:
k
oyzar says:
hmm
oyzar says:
seems nancy dced without dropping from this convo so can't reinvite her...

Nancy has left the conversation.

Nancy has been added to the conversation.

oyzar says:
how much are you going to have an when?
Jon says:
well off the top of my head im guessing we would attack with 2 elephant, 4 maces, 4 cats, a crossbow and a pike at the same time you do.
Jon says:
probably some knights throw in as well
Jon says:
more cats to follow on
oyzar says:
in 15 turns? that together with what we will have won't be enough to do a dent against sancta(maybe about the same), much better to wait until we have large enough stacks to actually attack with...
Jon says:
well I understand you guys have more rexing to do and want things on your timeline
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
no, we're done rexing
Nancy says:
i actuallydon't think that's oyzar's objection
Nancy says:
not the motive behind his objection, i meant
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
we physically can't get an 800 hammer stack to sancta's border in 15 turns, and that won't be enough to defeat sancta's similarly-sized stack which can get there in 15 turns. We propose a later timeframe, and bigger stacks, where we actually stand a chance of success.
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
We just don't have the productive capability
Jon says:
ok, i will take your answer back to my team
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
we are discussing right now what a reasonable timeframe is
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
so don't go away
Jon says:
ok

Rune has left the conversation.

oyzar says:
i need to be out for a bit, hopefully the others can handle things though

Rune has been added to the conversation.

Jon says:
oh while you guys are deliberating... I seem to have closed some of the other chat windows that we have jump around in and lost the transcript of the first part of our conversation... would any of you be able to help me out?
Jon says:
i want to make sure you are represented properly in our forum
Jon says:
in your own words vs, just a summary from me
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
we're thinking of a 35-40 turn timeframe, when we will attack with a big stack of knights+cannons. Although, we may request something on the order of a 5-turn delay, if we lose lib, since we will get to steel later
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
I'll have a look
Rune says:
we would start a military build-up now
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
yes
Nancy says:
have to go, good luck everyone

Nancy has left the conversation.

Rune says:
the odds of success is so much greater with the extra turns
Jon says:
well it looks like SANCTA will win the lib race
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
I have the transcript
Jon says:
ah excellent
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
shall I post it here, or PM it?
Jon says:
might be easier to pm
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
ok
Rune says:
can I get it too?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
sure
Rune says:
I missed some
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
sent
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
please confirm
Jon says:
got it, thanks
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
yw

ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF has left the conversation.

Rune has left the conversation.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Involved in a long long chat with what seems like the entire Cavalieros team right now... I will let Cavscout or Smoke post the rest...

Spoiler :

oyzar says:
well we(cav) just had a discussion with cavscout
i am sure you have read it on your forum
Sommerswerd says:
That is why logged on
Had to download this program onto Computer
now Cavscout is gone
oyzar says:
yeah, most of the other people on my team left too...
Sommerswerd says:
what was the conclusion reached if any?
oyzar says:
not much, but basically that we will help you take tky, but exactly how and when is yet to be exact determined
he said he was going to post the transcript though
Sommerswerd says:
OK I'll take a look. But I can tell you that is not good enough for some
oyzar says:
not good enough for what?
and it is certainly a start
Sommerswerd says:
Some think you guys burned us on the first battle
Trust is shaky
oyzar says:
burned you???
Sommerswerd says:
It is a starting point for negotiation though I agree
oyzar says:
we advised you to get 2 promotion units(for woodie and guerilla 2), but you didn't follow that advice
Sommerswerd says:
Advice??
I know there are several on the team that asked for units
You did not send any. They will not be persuaded that your advice should suffice
oyzar says:
you know the logistics
there were at least 15 tiles from our closest city to TKY
there is cavscout
Sommerswerd says:
I see him

starlockus@yahoo.com was added to the conversation. Handwriting is supported only with people on your contact list.

runir2k@hotmail.com was added to this conversation. Handwriting is no longer supported because not all participants can view handwritten messages. Handwritten messages will be sent as text.

oyzar says:
hmm for some reason it didn't work to add cavscout in here

Jon has been added to the conversation.

oyzar says:
there
Sommerswerd says:
He Cavscout
Hey
I mean
Jon says:
hi
Unconquered Sun says:
hello
Jon says:
Sommers did you read the transcripts that I posted in the forum?
Sommerswerd says:
I am reading now, give me a sec
Unconquered Sun says:
cavscout, is Kaleb back on team Cav pitboss?
Jon says:
yeah he is back
Unconquered Sun says:
Good. I need to talk him into the anti-oyzar alliance
Jon says:
good luck lol
Sommerswerd says:
Isnt Oyzar in this chat?
Oyzar?
hello
LOL
Unconquered Sun says:
that's the point
Sommerswerd says:
LOL I see
oyzar says:
i am here
8 hours left...
if you had such a disagreement on your team i don't see why you didn't pause the turn on your turn...
Sommerswerd says:
I am looking through the chats Cavscout... What does "imp" mean? What about GG (Great General?)
oyzar says:
imperialistic
Sommerswerd says:
Got it
oyzar says:
gg = great general
Sommerswerd says:
Fast REX
oyzar says:
imperialistic get +100% great general emergence
Jon says:
cheap settlers and fast great generals

[EDIT:Email removed at request] has been added to the conversation.

Jon says:
Oyzar's point I believe was it would be best for CAV to do the killing to spawn more GG's... am I correct?
Sommerswerd says:
OK done reading
Is that is Oyzar?
I think everyone is gone
Jon says:
im still here
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
I've just arrived
oyzar says:
I am still here as well
Sommerswerd says:
OK I read the prior chats
My reaction is that our proposal was not unreasonable as you guys claimed
It was pretty reasonable
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
demanding 4 cities and a bunch of unit?
Sommerswerd says:
I can see why you did not like it of course
but It was not unreasonable
You have 17 cities
we have 9
If you gave us 4 we would have 13 and you would have 13
We need units to fight SANCTA
Everyone agrees on that
If you give us the units, we can go after SANCTA without you guys having to get heavily involved
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
except by building and transporting the units, say
Sommerswerd says:
It seemed to us that you wanted to avoid open war with SANCTA
Because you did not send units before
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
it's not entirely clear to me
Unconquered Sun says:
that's not the case
Sommerswerd says:
What is not clear?
What is not the case?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
I haven't been around that long - so what we may or may not have seemed is unknown to me
Unconquered Sun says:
did Indiansmoke rely the messages we exchanged in June?
I was away for a month
Sommerswerd says:
What were they about?
Sending Units?
Unconquered Sun says:
they discussed the benefits of theology - namely 5 xp that allows for guerilla/woodsman units that could quickly reach the front: even from our core cities
and choke sancta
Indiansmoke preferred the mace plan
then I went away for a month
and now we have the results
as far as I know our team helped you as much as possible with the upgrades?
Sommerswerd says:
Ah yes Oyzar mentioned that as well
the advice about the woodsman promotion.
So what about sending units to fight?
Thanks for the advice about the Woodsman promotion too
Unconquered Sun says:
you're welcome
it's only too bad we didn't took the safer route back then
Sommerswerd says:
Im not sure that us following that piece of advice would have turned the tide of the battles though
Still it was good advice we should probably have followed
So why no units?
It made us think you don't want to engage SANCTA
Unconquered Sun says:
at any rate SANCTA have gained in power and taking them down won't be a blietzkrieg; more like a war of attrition
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
what do you mean no units?
Sommerswerd says:
Which is why we are requesting you gift us units
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
we don't have units
therefore we can't gift them to you
Sommerswerd says:
Military units... You know Catapults, Maces, chariots, crossbows, that sort of thing
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
yeah
Sommerswerd says:
Ah you don't have any army I see OK
That makes sense
you cant give them if you dont have them
So why not give us a few cities instead so we can make more units ourselves
?
That way you guys dont have to worry about making units
And you don't have to worry about fighting SANCTA
we will give the cities back when the fight is over
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
because you won't be able to make units nearly as quickly we can - you have not infrastructure, and no popped borders. Also, we like having our cities, and there is no way you can defend them and your core
Rune says:
a gifted city has everything reset
Sommerswerd says:
How quickly can you make the units?
Rune says:
food basket, culture, hammers into queued buildings/units
it makes no sense for us to gift cities
Unconquered Sun says:
we can make units quickly
and we can aid you in pushing back sancta and taking the land for you exclusively
Sommerswerd says:
How many turns will it take you to send one catapult adjacent to Ti Kuan Yin?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
lol
Unconquered Sun says:
the problem is sancta can kill lone catapults
Sommerswerd says:
For example, it would take us about 6 turns to put one catapult next to TKY, IIRC.
How long would it take you?
Surely you realize I am not suggesting you send a lone catapult to TKY...
I am asking how many turns it would take.
See... the whole problem here is that we (meaning Kaz and Cav) have no idea about what specifically Cav can/will do.
oyzar says:
getting one cat there will maybe take 5-6 turns
Sommerswerd says:
I asked "how many turns?" and you respond that SANCTA would kill the catapult...
Thank you Oyzar
oyzar says:
i don't see why that matters though
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
it is entirely irrelevant
Sommerswerd says:
How much military do you estimate it will take to capture TKY?

egreg4@hotmail.com has been added to the conversation.

oyzar says:
see there
another one
Sommerswerd says:
Assuming SANCTA has a wall, 6 L'bows and 2 catapults there (hypothetically)
Gregory says:
hello
hi sommer
Sommerswerd says:
Why irrelevant?
Hi Gregory

oyzar says:
it takes 5-6 turns to walk from our closest city to TKY btw
sommerswerd, unconquered sun, ZPV, cavscout, rusten, indiansmoke
for those who don't know each other
Gregory says:
nice group
Jon says:
welcome
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
the ability to send one cat, and the ability to send a real stack are entirely unrelated
Gregory says:
hi cavscoutr
Jon says:
read the chat log from earlier?
Gregory says:
guys since I have not been here from the start do you mind me saying what I think about the whole issue and then we can comment?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
sure
Gregory says:
Cav people?
oyzar says:
sure
Jon says:
go for it
Gregory says:
ok
We have reached a stage where I think we must forget everything that happened so far
it is like starting from scratch
oyzar says:
why?
Gregory says:
As I see it there are 2 options for us
let me explain
Rune says:
let him finish
Unconquered Sun says:
let's hear out
Gregory says:
Cav you are 8-9 cities ahead of us and Sancta is 5, obviously we are in a very bad position to win this game, and we are all playing to win
especially since we are landlocked
so, what we would need to make us happy is to get some land from sancta and have at least a slim chance in the game
we are also is a weird position to be able to influence the outcome of this game however
Unconquered Sun says:
kingmaker
Gregory says:
We want to influence it towards Cav and leave some small chance for ourselves
This can only happen if you help with military
I realize that rushing now is pointless
we need to build this up and prepare
but, we need commitment that this will happen
and we found this awkward way of trying to get the commitment
not very elegant but we were pressed by time
So what I would be happy with is to plan an invasion in a 30 turn timeframe period
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
Did you see the 35-40 turn timeframe suggested in the previous chat?
Gregory says:
no
Jon says:
with a 5 turn extension tacked on if we loose lib
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
yeah
Jon says:
so now we are pushing 45 even 50 turns out
plenty of time to consolidate your rex
Unconquered Sun says:
I disagree
Gregory says:
so before we start talking specifics, do Cav agree to this logic?
Unconquered Sun says:
IMO we're missing a few key elements here
Gregory says:
like?
Unconquered Sun says:
I agree on the overall logic
in fact that's what I expected to hear from Kaz
you're now in the kingmaker position in the game
it's natural you want to have a chance to win
by taking down SANCTA
however we have to admit SANCTA is a good team
Gregory says:
of course
Unconquered Sun says:
trying to rush them down won't work for the same reasons it didn't work last time
what we need to do is to bleed sancta
a war of attrition at first
before moving in for the kill
Gregory says:
US it does not work like that
I know
Unconquered Sun says:
that's where we disagree
Gregory says:
in multiplayer ot is move in for the kill
Unconquered Sun says:
the tactic, not the strategy
Gregory says:
no attriition
Unconquered Sun says:
Indiansmoke
Jon says:
wear them down and then you deliver the coup de grace via naval attack?
Unconquered Sun says:
that's only true for ladder on blazing
on pitboss, Memphus will beat you every time
Gregory says:
lol
you don;t know what you are talking about obviosly
Unconquered Sun says:
I know a few things
like that one game I substituted for a civ reduced to 2 cities by you
and then destroyed all of your army
with 2 cities only
Gregory says:
which one?
oyzar says:
highlands
Unconquered Sun says:
I also happen to have messages
Jon says:
well lets not fight about who knows what, we all bring different experience and ideas to the table
Unconquered Sun says:
I sent them to you and I told you your tactic is wrong
Gregory says:
highland swas my first ever multiplayer
along time ago
i did not know what I was doing in highlands game
Unconquered Sun says:
ladder tactics wont work here
it's as simple as that
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
not on a map handmade with the express intention of all civs surviving a long time
Gregory says:
I know what works and what does not US, but in this game you win some you lose some
Unconquered Sun says:
I don't lose
Gregory says:
another LOL
Unconquered Sun says:
well, at least when im solo
Gregory says:
same here

Unconquered Sun says:

Gregory says:
In any case what type of attrition do you propose?

Jon has left the conversation.

oyzar says:
guerilla and woody 2 units
Unconquered Sun says:
it'be nice to do some choking, yes
Gregory says:
woody?

Jon has been added to the conversation.

Gregory says:
there are no forests left
Unconquered Sun says:
too bad memphus managed to clear all the forests on your side already
Gregory says:
they are chopping like mad
Unconquered Sun says:
yes, because you didn't listen the first time
we can still do it tho
on our side
you guys can do def and rebuild
Gregory says:
you said something the first time?
Unconquered Sun says:
make the most out of your land
then we bring them down
Gregory says:
well we made mistakes in the first attack
but they had abit of luck as well
the strategy was sound
the execution was poor and unlucky
If we waited 5-6 more turns and they did not win 10% we would get waht we wanted
oyzar says:
why didn't you wait 5-6 turns?
Gregory says:
Anyway we are here now
Unconquered Sun says:
indeed
Gregory says:
because we screwed up
Rune says:
this is pretty similar
you don't want to wait 5-10 turns
Unconquered Sun says:
we have to use every opportunity to bleed SANCTA
Rune says:
although it'll be much better
Gregory says:
I said I am prepared to wait
this time
Rune says:
alright
Gregory says:
It has to be build up the attack
But regarding the attrition
what short of units?
carracks?
oyzar says:
guerilla 2 lbows are rather hard to get off hills
Unconquered Sun says:
carracks will play a role
attrition means forcing sancta to spend more hammers than we do in minor encounters, etc
make them waste resources on defense
Gregory says:
Ok let me tell you what I think about attrition
attrition means that we force sancta to review their civics and their army build up
spend hammers on uints
but it does not make them lose land
In the meantime
you grow
and grow
and we stay at 9 cities
by the time attrition is over is game over
for us
It is either full scale to help us get land, or we will have to look at other options
Unconquered Sun says:
it's full scale as far as Im concerned
Gregory says:
This full scale does not have to be rushed
Unconquered Sun says:
attrition is only the opener
Gregory says:
we can agree to the way we do it
oyzar says:
sancta are about 10 turns away from currasairs if they get lib
Gregory says:
Oyzar?
Sancta will use a Gs for liberialism
it makes little difference
oyzar says:
that requires them to pop a GS within 2 turns ofc
Gregory says:
they can use it on PP instead
y
oyzar says:
y as in yes or as in why?
Gregory says:
Liberialims is of little value
what tech will we get?
oyzar says:
we still want to get chemistry, but that is clearly risky
Gregory says:
impossible rather
oyzar says:
no, not impossible
Gregory says:
who will tech gunpowder?
oyzar says:
you guys
Unconquered Sun says:
there's a trick
oyzar says:
just very risky as sancta can attack us while we are cold
Gregory says:
4 turns?
Sommerswerd says:
At least 6 turns to GP
OK 4 maybe w Sci Specialists
Gregory says:
it is 4 turns I think sommer
oyzar says:
but as i said there are 5-6 turns from their city to ours and they don't have roads
Sommerswerd says:
OK
oyzar says:
we can not log in, and we don't have to chose a tech from lib
Gregory says:
oyzar we are talking about liberialism
oyzar says:
we then wait and wait
until you finish GP
then you gift it to us
and we get it then chose chem
Jon says:
SANCTA will have Lib before then
Gregory says:
ooo
will that work?
oyzar says:
we have tested it and yes it will
Sommerswerd says:
SANCTA will already win possibly
Gregory says:
and you think Sancta will not have lib by then?
Sommerswerd says:
SANCTA will have Lib by then
oyzar says:
as i said, they have to pop a GS in 2 turns to beat us to lib
Sommerswerd says:
they are only 1 or 2 turns behind
Right
Gregory says:
how many turns for you to tech liberialism?
Sommerswerd says:
w/GS
oyzar says:
4
Gregory says:
4?
oyzar says:
people don't relay anything i say to the forum?
Gregory says:
sancta will have it in 4 without GS
oyzar says:
they can't start on it next turn
because they won't have philo
Gregory says:
they are still teching edu
oyzar says:
so we will put 2 turns into it before they put any into it
Gregory says:
no need to start it
They can do it in 2 turns after edu oyzar
oyzar says:
they are doing over 1K beakers per turn?
with 500 gnp?
Gregory says:
and they play before you
Jon says:
they will spawn a 2nd GS
Gregory says:
GNP can go up
they are in caste and rep
oyzar says:
I am more worried about a GS
there is no reason to tech compass if they don't plan for a GS
Jon says:
exactly
and they teched compass in 1 turn
Gregory says:
indeed
oyzar says:
compass is cheap
Gregory says:
also overflow from compass meant they did not lose a turn on edu
Jon says:
they can starve a city and run the whole pop as scientist for a few turns
Gregory says:
Anyway this is not the issue
lets say we give you teh techs and you win lib
chemistry
Then?
Unconquered Sun says:
steel
Jon says:
thats if we do the gamey technique of you guys not logging in
Gregory says:
you kean you tech steel
Unconquered Sun says:
for a few reasons
Gregory says:
So you come back to my words lib is not that important
because instead of teching lib you can tech chemistry
1-2 tursn loss thats all
oyzar says:
so you want to abandon lib?
Unconquered Sun says:
up until communism
Gregory says:
The only reason is to deny Sancta something big of it
?
oyzar says:
sancta doesn't even have machinery, getting something big out of it will be rather hard(though i guess they could take MT)
communism require lib
this map require communism
Gregory says:
that is far off anyway
and communism for you
Unconquered Sun says:
not that far off with aggressive beeline, but that really is not the point
Gregory says:
for our 9 cities?
Unconquered Sun says:
the point is
sancta have grabbed some of your lands, will grab some of saturn's lands for sure (peacefully at that)
will end up considerably bigger than even us, and financial
and win
Gregory says:
yes
unles we take them out
Unconquered Sun says:
exactly
in the process, you will gain enough cities to have a go at victory, as is fair
that's about it
Gregory says:
My understanding of a plan to take out sancta goes like this
We tech astronomy
and force them to obsolete colossus
Unconquered Sun says:
absolutely
Gregory says:
attrition
then we get cannons
and rifles
and we hit them together with cannons rifles stacks
Unconquered Sun says:
cannons are great for defense - in fact with everyone having WEs they are not bad for offense either
Gregory says:
they don;t get collateral
so unless they have cavalry they are great for offense
oyzar says:
currasairs can flank them
Gregory says:
?
Rune says:
cuirassiers*
Unconquered Sun says:
steel might boost our naval production as well, if we manage to win the seas sancta will be much weaker; we can't let their UU block us
Rune says:
and that comes at a price against WEs
Unconquered Sun says:
they have low retreat
not good at all hammerwise
Rune says:
yeah
oyzar says:
a c2 currasair have positive odds against a c2 WE before colleteral even, on defense they will have colleteral
Gregory says:
cruisiers wil die to rifles so no flank
Unconquered Sun says:
anyhow, we don't have to fight before we're ready, if they get cuirassiers we get rifles + cannons
Gregory says:
Sancta have overstretched their cities
Unconquered Sun says:
considering redcoats, sancta's best defense will be a lot of collateral imo
Gregory says:
which means it takes time from back cities to the front
Unconquered Sun says:
they were in a hurry to secure enough land for peaceful victory
oyzar says:
atm i don't think they have any military in their back cities(we don't have optics yet), just in their front cities...
Gregory says:
If they stack up siege then the only way to go in is with machine guns
so we do not want to get to that
That is why relatively swift action is required
oyzar says:
well steam power is needed on this map anyways, from steam power + steel the way to machine guns isn't far(but it is still quite far away)
Unconquered Sun says:
we have the advantage in espionage, we'll know what sancta is stacking
Gregory says:
The point is Sancta cannot continue to tech fast and build army at the same time
they rely on collosus and rep
and my feeling is they will stick with these

But the most important thing that I take away from the chat is:

1. Cavalieros want to wait 40-50 turns to attack SANCTA
2. Cavalieros have no army to speak of

Since we know that SANCTA is ready to bring the fight to Cavalieros now (20 units ready to attack in 5 turns according to Memphus)... Well... I will wait to see what others think.

It's funny that we have to twist arms to get this kind of interest from them in our team's well being.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Ok just had a very long chat with 3-4 cav executives Sommer and cav scout (dam i forgot to save th log!) but here is what we concluded (and what we must send them in a letter if all here agree).

We will work with cav to win liberialsm to get astronomy
Then we will go for cannons and rifles
We will do some development for the next 15 turns (libraries unis) and then we will both switch to theology and mass armies.
we will attack sancta together in about 35 tuns from now with armies of knights maces and cannons

I think it is as good as we can get and our best chance to actually get the land from Sancta...

and I feel they are convinced that it is in their best interest as well to mass an army and attack with us...not sure if they will keep their word but we hve to try IMO.

 

[cav scout]

We need to act on this soon.

If we agree to this then we want to gift Philo and Education before the turn roll so CAV can start Lib. The turn rolls in a few hours and if we dont gift tech we can forget the lib race...

EDIT: turn is going to roll no later then 0800 GMT... and could possibly roll sooner if Saturn unpauses before they say they will.

 

[cav scout]

Megachat continued (from where Sommers left off in his post):

Spoiler :

Gregory says:
if we go attrition this will alarm them
Gregory says:
and they will convert to military build up
Gregory says:
and then we will need machine guns
Unconquered Sun says:
hrm
Gregory says:
?
Unconquered Sun says:
well I see your point: attrition is not the best for Kaz
Jon says:
and it seems like the attrition plan sets you guys up for a naval attack on SANCTAs core cities
Gregory says:
ok
Jon says:
while we slug it out around TKY drawing all their units in
Unconquered Sun says:
not really
Unconquered Sun says:
most of sancta's cities are on hills and nigh impossible to take with carracks; carracks have the same strength as caravels anyway and sancta will likely engage us at the sea
Gregory says:
In 30 turns you can have a massive stack of knights and cannons
Gregory says:
and so can we
Unconquered Sun says:
isnt it better to do WEs and cannons
Gregory says:
no
Gregory says:
cannons will protect your knights
Gregory says:
and they have longbows
Gregory says:
knights are better
Unconquered Sun says:
for longbows, yes
Gregory says:
to take out cities
Gregory says:
also they are 2 move
Rune says:
they are better against maces too
Unconquered Sun says:
but in that time
Unconquered Sun says:
sancta will have a rene weapon
Rune says:
I'd imagine you want both
Gregory says:
yes
Gregory says:
but they will not have build big quantities
Gregory says:
numbers will matter
Unconquered Sun says:
numbers always matter, but don't underestimate sancta
Unconquered Sun says:
their HE city alone is 1 unit per turn
oyzar says:
have they even built HE yet?
Gregory says:
what unit?
oyzar says:
I haven't seen it on the map
Gregory says:
because for cruisiers it wiill be 2 turns
Unconquered Sun says:
not on the map
oyzar says:
it is either in one of their 2 hidden cities
Unconquered Sun says:
copper kettle
Unconquered Sun says:
could be one
Gregory says:
So what exactly do you propose then?
Unconquered Sun says:
an attack with cannons supported by medi units is fine
Unconquered Sun says:
Im just saying it's best to not underestimate them
Gregory says:
ok
Gregory says:
we are not
Gregory says:
and we will need ms in this as well
Unconquered Sun says:
we'll spy, as soon as we have a window we strike
Gregory says:
to atack saturn
oyzar says:
getting units from MS to attack sancta directly might be even better
Gregory says:
to make sure no reinforcements from them
Unconquered Sun says:
we can avoid land attrition as to not alarm them, but we need to force them into astronomy
oyzar says:
saturn doesn't do much by themselves
Gregory says:
no but they might gift units
oyzar says:
just by carracks with extra movement we might scare them that way...
Unconquered Sun says:
they are also much weaker players (when dmoc is not online at least) losing cities to barbs, etc
Gregory says:
and MS engaging with them will keep them home
oyzar says:
no i mean, saturn doesn't have any production to help sancta...
oyzar says:
and the distance between sancta and saturn logistically is enourmus
Gregory says:
they can slave
Gregory says:
?
Gregory says:
not really
oyzar says:
there is a mountain range between them
Unconquered Sun says:
saturn is likely aligned to sancta out of comfort, even fear
Unconquered Sun says:
if say, MS, send a stack east
Unconquered Sun says:
saturn might reconsider
Gregory says:
hmm
Gregory says:
Saturn join us you mean?
Unconquered Sun says:
or at least go neutral
Jon says:
would be good to take away SANCTA's cash cow
Unconquered Sun says:
Id rather have MS harass them tho if we want to avoid scaring sancta
Gregory says:
me too
Jon says:
what would an attack by MS against Saturn as an opening move for us do?
Gregory says:
tehy would ask help from sancta
oyzar says:
going neutral? what does that mean?
Gregory says:
always a difficult point in a relationship
Jon says:
an MS/Saturn fight would certainly draw SANCTA's attention
Jon says:
they like all the cash they get from saturn
Unconquered Sun says:
MS won't be in danger
Sommerswerd says:
Does MS have army to attack Saturn?
Sommerswerd says:
Or would they need to build one?
Unconquered Sun says:
sancta will have a hard time sending troops, and we can easily intervene on MS behalf, on the other hand we both can easily deny any involvement in MS aggression
Jon says:
SANCTA went on and on to us about how they know MS is planning on attacking Saturn, back when Saturn doublecrossed us on the tech deal
Unconquered Sun says:
MS have some axes and holkans
oyzar says:
MS doesn't have any army either...
Unconquered Sun says:
nah
Sommerswerd says:
Yes they did talk alot about MS conspiracy to attack Saturn
Unconquered Sun says:
saturn is defenseless
Unconquered Sun says:
they lose cities to solo barb spears
Gregory says:
Anyway to conclude somewhere
Jon says:
even the barbs are taking their cities lol
Jon says:
so I suppose HUSch could manage something against them
Sommerswerd says:
LOL
Unconquered Sun says:
we could gift a couple of units to MS
Gregory says:
Do you agree that we need to attack Sancta together in about 30 turns?
Sommerswerd says:
How many?
Sommerswerd says:
Units to MS I mean?
Unconquered Sun says:
I agree we need to take down sancta as soon as possible
Unconquered Sun says:
depends
Unconquered Sun says:
we need to get MS going to war first
Sommerswerd says:
Enough to take a city or just to harass?
Unconquered Sun says:
they are hard to contact and may be unwilling
Unconquered Sun says:
enough to take a city wont be a problem
Unconquered Sun says:
depends what we want
Unconquered Sun says:
saturn's borders are completely open
Unconquered Sun says:
often forested
Jon says:
enough of a threat that Saturn screams for help
Unconquered Sun says:
units can bypass low value border cities with a whipped lbow and harass capital
Jon says:
heck raiding a few cottages would cut down on the cash SANCTA gets
Jon says:
the more fixated SANCTA is on the north the better
Gregory says:
So let me see if understand correctly
Gregory says:
You propose to have an attack in mind
Gregory says:
but scoutr sancta nad hit at the right momment
Gregory says:
or start attrition war first?
Unconquered Sun says:
as you prefer
Gregory says:
by sending a few units to harash?
Gregory says:
So you will do what we tell you you mean?
Gregory says:
if we say slave army and lets go for the kill you will do it?
Unconquered Sun says:
Id support that, but I dont speak for all of Cav
Gregory says:
fair enough
Unconquered Sun says:
IMO sancta will win peace game
Gregory says:
peace?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
we'd have serious questions if the opportunity wasn't there, but otherwise, I support it too
Gregory says:
not with us
Rune says:
I support military action
Gregory says:
That is the whole problem isn't it?
Gregory says:
opportunity
Rune says:
but I don't support suicide obviously
Gregory says:
who says when it is there
Rune says:
so I don't want to rush into something stupid
Gregory says:
neither do we
Rune says:
but ~30-40 turns sounds good by me
Gregory says:
but ovecautious is not good either
Rune says:
it takes time to build-up and move units on a large map like this
Unconquered Sun says:
wont be that hard with engineering and roads now
Gregory says:
Let me think
Gregory says:
you hjave 17 cities
Rune says:
but I support starting the build-up immediately
Rune says:
and I think everyone in this convo does
Gregory says:
which can produce a unit =every 3 turns on average
Gregory says:
with slaving
Rune says:
some of these are size 1/2
Gregory says:
ok 12 cities
Gregory says:
so in 20 turns you can have 70 units
Gregory says:
of you wanted
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
there isn't enough food to do that
Gregory says:
and we can have 35 units
Gregory says:
no?
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
not as far as I can remember
Gregory says:
You have to realize that drastic measures are needed
Unconquered Sun says:
we can slave 70 units in 20 turns
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
ok, my mistake
Unconquered Sun says:
however, we still need a lot of cannons
Unconquered Sun says:
for this to work
Gregory says:
yes
Unconquered Sun says:
otherwise sancta castles will slow us too much
Gregory says:
we can start with the knights and maces
Gregory says:
and then cannons last
Gregory says:
Sancta cannot defent to 100 units no matter what
Unconquered Sun says:
they can
Jon says:
SANCTA will take note of the build up of course
Gregory says:
Only with slavery
Jon says:
and might shift gears to counter
Gregory says:
well if they shift measures then that is attrition
Gregory says:
we will force them to slavery
Gregory says:
and astronomy
Gregory says:
and slow down their tech
Gregory says:
if we leave them at caste and colosus
Gregory says:
they will tech faster than both of us
Unconquered Sun says:
yep
Gregory says:
So we build up, if they follow no matter, if they donlt they die
Unconquered Sun says:
couple of points
oyzar says:
do they even have your graphs?
Unconquered Sun says:
we need to tech both astro and steel soon enough
oyzar says:
I guess saturn does anyways
Gregory says:
yes
Unconquered Sun says:
and it's wise to switch to theology for that
Unconquered Sun says:
the entire build up
Gregory says:
yes astro and steel
Gregory says:
and start making knights
Gregory says:
which can be upgrated
Gregory says:
We can have more cash than them for upgrates with MS
Gregory says:
But if we do not build up military, both of us soon they will tech too fast
oyzar says:
cash for upgrades?
Gregory says:
if needed
oyzar says:
where are you going to get all that cash?
Gregory says:
If we build knights army and see that they follow the build up
Gregory says:
we don;t have to suicide
Gregory says:
and the upgrate option is there
Gregory says:
for later
Unconquered Sun says:
knights are cheap to upgrade
Gregory says:
But I think it is certain taht if we start increasing our powers they will follow,
Unconquered Sun says:
they will
Gregory says:
so we ned to hide it
Unconquered Sun says:
they'll defend very well
Gregory says:
have knights in que
Gregory says:
numbers will decide US
Gregory says:
they cannot make as much as both of us can
Gregory says:
and if they follow and slow their tech
Jon says:
its a shame we wont get to build our half-priced universities with all this build up
Gregory says:
we will have a better chance to get to more advanced units first
Gregory says:
we will
Gregory says:
that is why we say 30 turns and not 15
Gregory says:
both of us still have some development to do
oyzar says:
well, from what i understand of the leadership structure of your team, you still have to get the rest of the team to agree with stuff before you go through with anything right?
oyzar says:
we are still under a very strict timelimit...
Gregory says:
well yes
Jon says:
if all Kaz people chatting now agree we can make something happen
Gregory says:
but from what I can tell from this vhat it is more you agreeing to mass an army in the time frame we said
Jon says:
btw, if this chat non-forum postable because of the lib race trick discussed earlier?
Unconquered Sun says:
do we both agree on adopting theocracy?
Jon says:
*is this i meant to say
Gregory says:
yes theocracy should be in plans
Gregory says:
not straight away but in about 10-15 turns
Jon says:
when we start churning out units
Gregory says:
yes
Unconquered Sun says:
ok
Gregory says:
So can we go back to our forums and propose the following
Gregory says:
We will work together to tech to Astronomy, steel and rifling and in aboiut 15 turns we will switch to theocracy and start slaving armies. ten in about 35 turns from now we will attack sancta
Gregory says:
BTW why not get astronomy from lib?
Gregory says:
we can tech optics as fast as gunpowder
Gregory says:
maybe faster
Jon says:
and astronomy costs the most beakers
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
I agree with the proposal for mass slaving
Unconquered Sun says:
excellent
oyzar says:
I am in
Rune says:
too
Unconquered Sun says:
so do we go optics - astro?
Unconquered Sun says:
cool
Gregory says:
Sommer?
Gregory says:
he left?
Gregory says:
Cavscout?
Jon says:
i'm in agreement
Gregory says:
u here?
Gregory says:
k
Jon says:
i'd like to see astronomy also if CAV is down
Jon says:
I'm 90% sure Kaz will go for this
Gregory says:
Ok will get back to forums and send you this note, hopefully we will be on our way soon
Jon says:
time crunch on turn roll
Gregory says:
nice chatting with you guys
Unconquered Sun says:
keep in touch
Gregory says:
if anyone is stiil here
Gregory says:
k
ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF says:
bye
Jon says:
we need to give them the techs in the next couple hours
Unconquered Sun says:
all are here, but snorring
Gregory says:
haha
oyzar says:
i am here...
Gregory says:
ocya

ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF has left the conversation.

oyzar says:
we need a decision tonight though...
Jon says:
oyzar I will try to get you philo and education asap
Gregory says:
k
Unconquered Sun says:
lates

 

[Sommerswerd]

The SANCTA deal:
1. We build a city south of TKY, they let us expand to claim the copper
2. They attack Cavalieros (with us) and with a stack of 20 units in 5 turns. We get all the captured Cavalieros cities.

Seems better than...

The Cavalieros deal:
1. We gift Philo and Education now
2. Cavalieros attacks SANCTA with us in 30 turns. We get all the captured SANCTA cities.

Especially since Cavalieros admittedly has no army right now. They would be defenseless, and fall easily to a combined Kaz-SANCTA attack in 5 turns.

As a side note I think it is really funny that Unconquered Sun mentioned that they had units to send MS right away to attack Saturn, but they claim they have NO UNITS to send us ... but that is beside the point...

Either deal is irrelevant without trust, so it all boils down to who we trust to deliver on their promises.

I guess we can gift the techs to Cavalieros and still switch sides to SANCTA later... I would just rather we switched BEFORE they started building their army rather than later. Ultimately, Smoke and Cavscout worked hard ironing out a deal with Cavalieros so I will respect that.

 

[cav scout]

I gifted the techs to CAV and tenatively switched us to Compass. While I share Sommerswerd's concerns I believe we are safer going with CAV right now.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Thanks Cavscout and Smoke for taking care of all this

 

[damnrunner]

Just a thought on the Cav negotiaions. Though this may be too late to be of any help.

If Cavoesgift the cites they will greatly reduce their maintenece which will help win liberalism. We can hold the cities util Sancta cities begin to fall to our combined armies.