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Cavaleiros Embassy

Discussion in 'Team SANCTA' started by General_W, Mar 4, 2009.

  1. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    3,332
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Trent, England
    Possible basis for a letter. Need help with it though.

    Spoiler :
    Namaste Cavaleiros,

    Thank you for your previous offers of alphabet, but we felt that all of them were deficient in several areas, and hence we found another source for that knowledge. We hope you understand our conservative position.

    We are, however, still interested in receiving mutually beneficial offers from you for Metal Casting, and for any other techs taht we may be researching.

    SANCTA
    Metal flowing free
    crucible pours forth with heat
    strength matters for all
     
  2. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Medford, MA

    how's that? any better?
     
  3. General_W

    General_W Councilor & Merlot Noble

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    8,198
    Location:
    Washington State (GMT -8)
    That's getting there. But let's not say anything till we've got ink on the Alliance with Saturn.

    We don't want the Cav's to scramble and potentially throw a monkey wrench in our alliance deal.
     
  4. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    5,233
    Location:
    Canada
    Ok we have the alliance.

    LEtter needed.

    I think we should explain waht happened with Kaz

    and reference the CAv barb city.

    at that point we withdrew. we offered Kaz the same thing they they (cav) did for us.
     
  5. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    3,332
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Trent, England
    I think that we should discuss this with Saturn first, maybe let them take the lead.

    I'm not entirely sure what we want from Cav atm, other than possibly trading them MC, or trying to keep them from massively supporting Kaz (not entirely sure if we can do that considering what we just did with fued).
     
  6. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    5,233
    Location:
    Canada
    Just in from Niklas. Wow Cav pisses me off.

    Spoiler :
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    hello, you had some news?
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    what's going down in the world of SANCTA these days?
    Memphus says:
    yeah it seems we are at war with Kaz.
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    so it would seem - your choice or theirs?
    Memphus says:
    that is debatable
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    who pressed the trigger?
    Memphus says:
    we did on this turn
    Memphus says:
    similar situation we had with you and the barb city you captured.
    Memphus says:
    but we were smart and walked away
    Memphus says:
    (from you)
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    they had a unit near a barb city near you?
    Memphus says:
    yeah
    Memphus says:
    a chariot that could kill on thier next turn
    Memphus says:
    we had 3 axes and more troops on the way
    Memphus says:
    we asked them to walk away and they said no.
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    I see
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    may I ask where this city was located?
    Memphus says:
    umm yeah let me get a reference point.
    Memphus says:
    one sec
    Memphus says:
    ok from what i can tell the distance to the city is 1 tile from our borders than what your barb city was
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    that doesn't tell me much, in which direction is it?
    Memphus says:
    does it matter?
    Memphus says:
    it is out to your east.
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    well, diplomatically it obviously matters if kaz had any reasonable claim as well, or if it was totally on the other side of your empire from them
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    immediately to our east is where kaz is...
    Memphus says:
    and us, but kaz is south obviously
    Memphus says:
    we consider that city to be our southern border with kaz
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    kaz is not south of us
    Memphus says:
    and offered to not expand any further south
    Memphus says:
    (to Kaz)
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    since I/we don't know the exact lay of the land in the area, I couldn't really comment on what is reasonable or not
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    could you tell me how far from your capital this city is?
    Memphus says:
    we just wanted to let you know what is going on.
    Memphus says:
    unless you knew how far it was from kaz?
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    sorry if I ask a lot of questions, I'm just trying to get an idea of whether Kaz had any reason for doing what they did, or if they were just being arrogant
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    well, I know where their capital is with regards to yours, so I could do some counting given an estimate from you
    niklas.broberg@gmail.com says:
    oops, I need to run off for a bit, tty more when I get back
     
  7. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    3,332
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Trent, England
    *sigh*

    At least you were calmer than I would have been.

    It is not a disaster though.
     
  8. IamJohn

    IamJohn (was)?

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    674
    Location:
    Out there, somewhere, anywhere...
    To be fair it's not exactly like we can expect them to side with us. They're allied with Kaz, not us, so doing anything other then probing for information from us is unlikely. *shrug*
     
  9. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Medford, MA
    I think this city is very close to the center of the continent. If it's closer to Kaz's cap, it's by a few tiles, at the most.

    Maybe I'm wrong and it's very close to their capitol. I don't think it is.

    I wouldn't answer the question - you could say "it's Angle, if that helps"

    I think that Kaz was being as reasonable as we were. We just have a stronger military, is all. They can think it's their territory all they want ;)
     
  10. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    3,332
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Trent, England
    Oh, no, it's not that; you are completely right that we can't expect them to side with us.

    I think we can expect them to not be so self righteous and expect us to just back off though.

    I mean, asking us how far it is from our lands? Really? When we just pulled the trigger on war? :rolleyes:
     
  11. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    5,233
    Location:
    Canada
    Another Chat with Cav...quite lengthy

    Spoiler :
    Niklas Broberg says:
    hey, back ever so briefly
    Memphus says:
    busy guy!
    Niklas Broberg says:
    always
    Niklas Broberg says:

    Memphus says:
    sorry i am on the phone. my multi tasking ability is weak.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    alright, I must be off again then, be back in 20 top
    Memphus says:
    ok cool see you then.

    The following message could not be delivered to all recipients:
    ok cool see you then.

    Niklas Broberg says:
    ok, 25...
    Memphus says:
    min is how long you have?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    is how long it took for me to get back
    Memphus says:
    haha cool!
    Niklas Broberg says:
    now I should have a while
    Memphus says:
    nice!
    Niklas Broberg says:
    so...
    Niklas Broberg says:
    did you have an estimate for me?
    Memphus says:
    well i would but the team doesn't want to disclose that information.
    Memphus says:
    as such we feel given that we have 3 untis there and we stunted our expansion to claim this city that it is ours.
    Memphus says:
    had we shown up and kaz have 3 units in the area we would of backed off.
    Memphus says:
    but we have been there for 10 turns+ waiting for the city to grow.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    well, if you had stunted your expansion to claim the city near us that you backed off from, that obviously wouldn't have made it yours by right
    Niklas Broberg says:
    so naturally it does matter where it is located
    Niklas Broberg says:
    if it is equidistant from you and kaz, then surely whoever claims it first has the right
    Memphus says:
    i would say it is equidistant
    Niklas Broberg says:
    do you know where kaz are located?
    Memphus says:
    yes.
    Memphus says:
    thie exact capital location, no
    Memphus says:
    *thier
    Memphus says:
    either way at this point, we felt we had claim on the land.
    Memphus says:
    Kaz is down a chariot and at war with us.
    Memphus says:
    if they back off now, no harm we will take the city when it grows.
    Memphus says:
    if they don't we switch to HBR and our goal is to ruin thier chances at winning the game.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    should we see that as a gift?
    Niklas Broberg says:

    Memphus says:
    haha maybe...
    Memphus says:
    you willing to give us some tech for it
    Niklas Broberg says:
    well, when we are assured that you have given us the game and feel unthreatened for the victory, I'm sure we can arrange some suitable compensation
    Memphus says:
    so i take it now that we are at war with your ally tech trades are off the table?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I wouldn't take one to imply the other, no
    Niklas Broberg says:
    we have a tech agreement with Kaz, which you are well aware of by now
    Memphus says:
    yeah for sure.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    that's not the same thing as an alliance
    Memphus says:
    yes they are quite different.
    Memphus says:
    but at the same time...tech trading with you funnels Kaz's
    Memphus says:
    we are willing to be mercenaries though
    Memphus says:
    for a payment (to be determined) we would be willign to keep the war going
    Memphus says:
    and thus slow down Kaz's expansion and reasearch rate, positioning you ahead of them in the tech tree
    Niklas Broberg says:
    you want us to pay for something that you want to do so badly that I can feel it halfway across the world?
    Memphus says:
    haha
    Memphus says:
    no
    Memphus says:
    at the moment we want to be at war.
    Memphus says:
    until we have that city.
    Memphus says:
    then war is of no interest to us.
    Memphus says:
    but it could be to you.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I will bring the idea to our forum
    Memphus says:
    sounds good. Keep in touch!
    Memphus says:
    I am sure you will be getting a letter from Kaz quite soon once they log in
    Niklas Broberg says:
    hehe, I'm sure
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I had hoped to know the full extent of the story from you before that, but I guess I'll have to settle for their version
    Memphus says:
    well the version is as i explained i tried to be netural
    Memphus says:
    the city site might be in a neutral location, but eventually all sites are not neutral territory
    Memphus says:
    it is just a matter of when expansion gets there
    Niklas Broberg says:
    well, to say you were trying to be neutral might be an overstatement
    Niklas Broberg says:
    " similar situation we had with you and the barb city you captured.
    but we were smart and walked away"
    Memphus says:
    yeah
    Niklas Broberg says:
    that barb city was clearly in our back yard, whereas this one is clearly in contested land
    Niklas Broberg says:
    so not really similar
    Memphus says:
    back yard in relation to us.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    even if you may have the rights to it
    Memphus says:
    but maybe not back yard in relation to someone else
    Niklas Broberg says:
    well, you said it was equidistant from you and kaz
    Memphus says:
    *your city
    Niklas Broberg says:
    that's more like your front yard
    Niklas Broberg says:
    oh, our city was definitely no where near anyone else
    Memphus says:
    yes but the location of our current borders to the city is the same as yours to your barb
    Memphus says:
    we can't help it if the map makers didn't balance the starting locations
    Niklas Broberg says:
    that's not really relevant though, if it had been similar distance to your border but in the far northeast of the continent then obviously it would have been a different matter
    Niklas Broberg says:
    and similarly if our city had been to the north of us instead of south, it would not have been so obviously in our influence sphere
    Memphus says:
    but that south of you, is still inbetween you and Kaz and you and Us.
    Memphus says:
    similar to this city is also between all 3 of us.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I couldn't disagree more
    Niklas Broberg says:
    our capital is the southernmost of all capitals
    Niklas Broberg says:
    a city to the south of us could not possibly be closer to anyone else
    Niklas Broberg says:
    we know the location of both your and Kaz' capitals
    Niklas Broberg says:
    and neither of you have borders that are even as close as 10x the distance of that city to our borders
    Memphus says:
    I am not sure of the point here though?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    oh, just saying that the sitautions are not comparable
    Niklas Broberg says:
    that in itself doesn't really say anything about the current situation, only that no parallels should be drawn
    Memphus says:
    maybe not entirely but there is still some parrallels.
    Memphus says:
    *are
    Niklas Broberg says:
    as I said I'm not saying you don't have the right to this city, nor am I saying you do
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I simply don't know enough to make a reasonable judgement
    Memphus says:
    Ok so look at the 3 branches then and what would your reaction be
    Memphus says:
    If it is indeed closer to us and Kaz didn't back down?
    Memphus says:
    If it is in the middle
    Memphus says:
    Versus closer to Kaz.
    Memphus says:
    However as far as the comparions:
    Memphus says:
    you threatened war, if we didn't leave
    Memphus says:
    we did the same to kaz.
    Memphus says:
    diplomacy was identical but kaz didn't leave
    Niklas Broberg says:
    did we really threaten war?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    to my knowledge we only pointed out that there was no way you could capture the city before us
    Niklas Broberg says:
    though there may have been some communication that didn't involve me that I have forgotten
    Niklas Broberg says:
    but again, if you had had 3 axes near Zhou and threatened us with war if we didn't leave it to you, we would not have backed down
    Memphus says:
    "We
    Cavaleiros would never attempt to discipline the rebels within the
    Ninja sphere of influence and we must insist the Ninjas accord the
    Cavaleiros the same respect. If SANCTA attempt to attack or raze the
    Rebel Barbarian City then Cavaleiros will consider it an declaration
    of war and will be forced to act accordingly."
    Niklas Broberg says:
    since the city was so obviously in our influence
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I see, well, we have hotheads on our team too, and I don't always have the time to play diplomat
    Niklas Broberg says:
    but looking at your three branches
    Memphus says:
    haha, G_W is busy now, so consider me in the middle of Him and Krill
    Niklas Broberg says:
    if the city is closer to you and falls naturally within your sphere of influence, then Kaz were stupid and arrogant not to back down, and it serves them right to lose a chariot for it
    Niklas Broberg says:
    if the city is closer to them, well, then your capturing it could easily be seen as an invasion of sorts, even if borders have not reached so far yet
    Memphus says:
    what does Cav define as Spere of Influence (for future negotations) X tiles from captial?
    Memphus says:
    X tiels from borders?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    since the continent is not symmetric, it would be somewhat silly to try to give a single metric that would be used in all situation
    Niklas Broberg says:
    s
    Niklas Broberg says:
    it obviously depends a lot on things like mountain ranges as well
    Memphus says:
    yeah for sure.
    Memphus says:
    we have interdicted that land, and we feel we are being reasonable promising not to expand south
    Niklas Broberg says:
    fair enough
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I wish you would tell me where the city lies
    Niklas Broberg says:
    but even without that, I have heard and acknowledge your side of things
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I'm sure I'll hear a different version from Kaz, the question is how much different it will be
    Memphus says:
    what benefit would knowing city location give?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    only for being able to determine between the three branches you presented
    Memphus says:
    yeah that is true. I am sure kaz will present it in their letter though? as they know our capital location
    Memphus says:
    so they should say City X is Y from us and Z from SANCTA
    Memphus says:
    therefore....
    Niklas Broberg says:
    sure, I'm just impatient
    Memphus says:
    if they don't give you that info though, would have to make you wonder.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    wonder why they wouldn't share the info you mean?
    Memphus says:
    yes
    Niklas Broberg says:
    like I'm wondering with you now?
    Memphus says:
    because we don't know the exact location of thier capital.
    Memphus says:
    also why i asked what you consider spehere of influence
    Niklas Broberg says:
    well, we know where theirs are and we know where yours are, we could easily count with just point of reference
    Memphus says:
    because if it was current borders we win hands down.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    well, again it depends also on the lay of the land, if this site hypothetically blocks their only viable expansion route due to a mountain range blocking other directions, then that would have to be taken into account too
    Niklas Broberg says:
    if there must be a simple answer, I would say distance to capital is more relevant than distance to current borders
    Memphus says:
    ok good to know
    Niklas Broberg says:
    even if the latter measure probably favors our own team...
    Memphus says:
    this city would not block them in via mountains
    Memphus says:
    they still would eb able to expand.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    fair enough, I was merely talking hypothetically
    Memphus says:
    oh for sure. and we also considered that when we proposed to them that is is as far south as we would go.
    Memphus says:
    which is potentially still on the table if they withdraw
    Niklas Broberg says:
    alright, as I said earlier I only ask all these questions out of curiosity, the first (true) war will always have people excited
    Memphus says:
    yes.
    Memphus says:
    i am sure more will unfold in the future
    Niklas Broberg says:
    at any rate I thank you for the information, I doubt you actually expected a stance from us either way
    Memphus says:
    nope we just wanted to let you know what was happening as your turn player would of logged into war
    Niklas Broberg says:
    he did note it in our forum yes
    Memphus says:
    ultimately we expect you to side with kaz no matter what as they are who you have an alliance with.
    Memphus says:
    but felt we could still present the logic behind our choice
    Niklas Broberg says:
    well, as I noted, trade agreement =/= alliance
    Memphus says:
    you did note that.
    Memphus says:
    but a trade agreement would of left you with more flexibility earlier with us?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    flexibility how?
    Memphus says:
    in trading or getting out of with them.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    well, we were not really inflexible, only that at that point you had nothing that we had not already traded for, even if we didn't actually have it in hand
    Memphus says:
    well there is always MC. and that is still out there.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    and we were interested in MC from the beginning, but you made clear then that you would not trade it
    Memphus says:
    well we would of, but nnot for just alpha.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    and when we actually made you a suggestion for it, you tried to go to Kaz to get a better deal
    Memphus says:
    especially after the intercepted message.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    intercepted message?
    Memphus says:
    youll have to ask your team about that.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    oh, you mean the missent one?
    Memphus says:

    Niklas Broberg says:
    I was under the impression that you had deleted that without reading
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I must say it is somewhat disappointing to hear that's not true, since it was clearly an OOC mishap never meant for your ears
    Memphus says:
    Yeah i know it would seem that way
    Memphus says:
    several leaders read it before realizing what it was.
    Memphus says:
    We asked Admin for a ruling
    Niklas Broberg says:
    well, it would obviously not have been possible to rule anything about it
    Niklas Broberg says:
    all we could ask of you was to do the honorable thing
    Memphus says:
    yeah but as I had said a number of us had read it prior to getting the next letter asking us not to open the other one.
    Memphus says:
    at that point forgetting what you have read is hard to do.
    Memphus says:
    I think we have been very fair in trying to not let that letter guide us, but at the same time....Alpha for MC was a ludacris trade and we knew it.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I'm trying to find the letter to see what it actually said
    Niklas Broberg says:
    what I remember from it was that it was a letter to MS trying to get them onboard with some longterm plans
    Niklas Broberg says:
    but as you may have realized, they are quite hard to communicate with
    Memphus says:
    they are beyond difficult
    Memphus says:
    no participation i think?
    Memphus says:
    it was a lette rto MS yes
    Niklas Broberg says:
    ah yes, I found it now
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I take it you have at least deleted all your copies of it?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I honestly don't see how anyone could read more than three sentences of that mail without realizing it wasn't for SANCTA eyes...
    Niklas Broberg says:
    "...to fool SANCTA..."
    Memphus says:
    yeah the exact wording escpaes me now
    Memphus says:
    i jsut remeber the jist of it.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    well, the thing was that MS didn't want to appear to be trading with us, since they wanted to seem towards you as if they didn't have any agreements yet
    Niklas Broberg says:
    but they had agreed to research sailing for us, and we needed it
    Memphus says:
    as for the answer about deleted it or not, i wasn't avoiding the subject
    Niklas Broberg says:
    but they didn't want to give it to us since you would be able to see that, so we offered something else in compensation "to fool you"
    Memphus says:
    Obviously as we asked the mods what to do, they said that the rest of the team should be informed of the infomation in the letter. So a copy of the email is in our forum for any new members to see. And as you can tell, we are getting new members all of the time
    Niklas Broberg says:
    WHAT???!!!
    Niklas Broberg says:
    quite frankly, that makes me totally pissed off
    Niklas Broberg says:
    not at you, but at the mods
    Niklas Broberg says:
    that's totally ridiculous
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I'm of a mind to call the game null and void, just because this is so absurd
    Memphus says:
    well....
    Memphus says:
    the 4 people that read it were the most active team leaders
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I'm not angry at you, so please don't defend it
    Memphus says:
    no i understand for sure
    Memphus says:
    hence why we went to mods ASAP
    Niklas Broberg says:
    the least they could have done is to inform us
    Memphus says:
    but this is why the mods had no choice...
    Memphus says:
    because the 4 that read it control most of the day to day
    Memphus says:
    if it wasn't posted we we have 2 tier citizenship
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I'm baffled
    Niklas Broberg says:
    oyzar contacted General_W literally seconds after sending that mail, asking that it would be immediately deleted
    Niklas Broberg says:
    and you are saying 4 people still read it despite this?
    Memphus says:
    no 4 people read it before we knew
    Niklas Broberg says:
    4 people read it within seconds?
    Memphus says:
    as you can tell myself and others are quite active
    Memphus says:
    time for oyzar sending to G_W doesn't = time for G_W to tell us.
    Memphus says:
    i had the email open within 1 second of it comming though
    Niklas Broberg says:
    sure, but as I said, reading 3 sentences should have told you it was not for your eyes
    Memphus says:
    if you assume i read top down.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    that would be a reasonable assumption, no?
    Memphus says:
    usually yes. for a computer engineer no
    Niklas Broberg says:
    heh, I am one too and I don't see why we should be different
    Memphus says:
    first paragraphs are usualy nicety's and stuff.
    Memphus says:
    the meat is usually near the end!
    Niklas Broberg says:
    well, this is an unfortunate mistake that our own team are originally responsible for
    Niklas Broberg says:
    and there is no going back from the fact that you have read the letter
    Niklas Broberg says:
    but there is also no going back from the fact that you having read the letter completely upsets any diplomatic balance this game has, to the point where the game itself becomes completely boring
    Niklas Broberg says:
    my current (admittedly somewhat upset) feeling is that there's no point continuing
    Memphus says:
    strange I disagree
    Memphus says:
    well 5 players is generally boring anyway, but that is besides the point.
    Memphus says:
    also you can't assumer we got all our info from 1 letter
    Niklas Broberg says:
    and also you can't assume that the letter is the actual truth, seeing how it was to a large part propaganda for MS' ears
    Niklas Broberg says:
    that's not really the point though
    Memphus says:
    that is the other consideration
    Memphus says:
    we actually debated if it was sent to us intentionally.
    Memphus says:
    for the most part alot of the stuff in the letter isn't interesting.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    indeed, but it is decidedly and deliberately anti-sancta
    Memphus says:
    yeah but we already knew everyone hated us for getting the oracle
    Memphus says:
    and we knew you and kaz were trading and wanted to get MS with you.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    "We hope to be able to fool SANCTA into trading us Metal Casting for Alphabet. Alphabet is nearly useless by itself, so giving them that doesn't hurt us much, but getting Metal Casting would save us siginifcant beakers at some point. SANCTA also have yet to meet Saturn and as such can't utilize it properly. What do you think of this idea?"
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I take it this was what you were referring to originally?
    Memphus says:
    yeah that is the part.
    Memphus says:
    but we arn't dense players we knew that about alpha and MC
    Memphus says:
    and we saw MS score increasing indicating tech trades with you and KAz.
    Memphus says:
    so we knew Alpha would get us no where with MS.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    the fact remains thought that you sent us an offer trading MC for Alpha
    Memphus says:
    yes it does.
    Memphus says:
    but did we offer a straight deal?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    so how do you then explain the fact that you now say you were not interested in such a trade?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    it was a straight deal, though with some restrictions on our part on its usage
    Memphus says:
    i believe there were many conditions on it.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    yes, we wouldn't trade it away before turn 100, and we would not build the colossus
    Memphus says:
    we were in the mindset of negotiations
    Memphus says:
    In any event we arn't unhappy with the current situation of the game.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    well, that's a different beast entirely
    Niklas Broberg says:
    you noted that MC was still on the table, and I noted that we did agree to a trade that you had proposed, only to find you had gone to someone else looking for a better deal
    Memphus says:
    as I said we were in negotiations. on a powerful monopoly tech. We also knew of yours and Kaz relationship so really we had to ask if we were willing to let both of you have MC for Alpha
    Niklas Broberg says:
    and yet that's what you offered us, wasn't it?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    so the offer were only empty words then, to see our hand?
    Memphus says:
    no not at all
    Niklas Broberg says:
    then what?
    Memphus says:
    we offered an alliance
    Memphus says:
    and you refused.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    not at all
    Niklas Broberg says:
    no message from you (and I have the inbox open) has mentioned a suggestion or offer for an alliance
    Memphus says:
    in chats with G_W...
    Niklas Broberg says:
    G_W was quite clear on the fact that you would welcome an offer of an alliance with open arms, yes
    Niklas Broberg says:
    that's not the same thing as an offer, and we were also quite clear with the position we found ourselves in at the time
    Memphus says:
    yes which was prohibitng you on entering an alliance with us, due to your current agreement with kaz
    Niklas Broberg says:
    indeed, but it was not something that would have blocked a trade between us
    Niklas Broberg says:
    "Namaste Niklas,
    The Ninjas salute the wise and mighty Cavaleiros.

    We were very pleased to hear that you’ve decided you’d like to make a deal with us for OB and a tech trade to get Metal Casting.
    Unfortunately – when we never heard back from you, we went ahead and pursued another trade for Alphabet… and (even though it’s not 100% final yet) it looks like we’re going to get Alphabet plus another"
    Memphus says:
    no
    Memphus says:
    *sorry didn't finish what i was typing
    Memphus says:
    ok on your first point: you are right and it didn't stop us
    Memphus says:
    but you next post (the quote) is exactly why we stopped
    Memphus says:
    we sent letter to you and Kaz at the same time seeing what we could get for MC (reasonably understandable no?)
    Memphus says:
    your offer you know about. Kaz's was better. so we informed you right away.
    Memphus says:
    as it turned out neither trade happened, and as I said before we arn't unhappy with the way thigns went.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    obviously you now have a similar agreement with Saturn, which is what was to be expected all along
    Niklas Broberg says:
    and you were able to get alpha from them instead, which opens the possibility of you trading for something else from us for MC
    Memphus says:
    correct
    Niklas Broberg says:
    though I honestly doubt that will happen at this point, due to the way many on our team felt snubbed on the last trade
    Niklas Broberg says:
    what you sent us was not a letter asking what you could get for MC
    Niklas Broberg says:
    it was a proposal for a tech trade
    Niklas Broberg says:
    when we agreed to that some 5 turns later, we found it wasn't worth the paper it was written on
    Niklas Broberg says:
    sure those 5 turns took quite a while since the game was paused extensively
    Memphus says:
    ahh see that is the catch...5 turns is a long time
     
  12. Memphus

    Memphus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    5,233
    Location:
    Canada
    part #2:

    Spoiler :

    Memphus says:
    ahh see that is the catch...5 turns is a long time
    Memphus says:
    a tech trade HEAVILY
    Memphus says:
    in your favour
    Memphus says:
    the only benefit to us would be gettign alpha sooner to trade with MS. but that window was closed
    Memphus says:
    by the delay
    Niklas Broberg says:
    well, I was in continuous communication with General_W during that whole time, and you should know the cause of the delays, both in the pauses and in getting back to you
    Niklas Broberg says:
    and there was no mention of any haste in your message
    Memphus says:
    maybe...
    Memphus says:
    but as time passed kaz came with a better offer
    Memphus says:
    which is why we told you.
    Memphus says:
    Had you accepted more timely Kaz would of never had the chance.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    and thus you went back on an offer laid, in favor of getting a few more beakers out of it
    Memphus says:
    the semantics of it can be debated. But at the same time if you go to a store and it says sale (but no indication of when it ends) does that mean if you back a week later and the sign is gone, you are entiled to the sale price?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    it wasn't a purchase though, and there was several things in the deal that required debate, so even without the pauses it would likely have taken several turns to get to a reply
    Niklas Broberg says:
    as noted there was no mention of any haste in it
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I find it especially bothersome that it came at an inopportune time, as G_W was made aware we were quite heavily in debate at the time on which path to take from there
    Niklas Broberg says:
    you should be aware that we weren't completely happy with how the agreement with Kaz had turned out, and that we were debating whether to look for greener pastures
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I believe (quite strongly) that your decline on that trade pushed many off the fence
    Memphus says:
    but our decline came only after you stated you were staying with Kaz.
    Memphus says:
    there was no forseeable way for you to get out of the deal with them
    Memphus says:
    We were talking to you about an alliance (as you mentioned earlier) and got pushed back.
    Memphus says:
    to take that trade on the "hope and dream" that you woudl leave Kaz would be illogical on our part.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    we certainly did not decline
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I mean, we did not state we were staying with Kaz
    Niklas Broberg says:
    we could not have, since we were quite certainly not decided at the time
    Niklas Broberg says:
    that may have been the outcome in the end, sure, and it may have been illogical on your part
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I merely state what I personally saw the situation as
    Memphus says:
    "Niklas:
    for us to be interested, it would first require that we make the decision to leave the agreement, as discussed earlier"
    Memphus says:
    then being more circumstantial eveidence
    Memphus says:
    after G_W talked to you.
    Memphus says:
    Kaz pulled a 180 and walked away
    Memphus says:
    a huge indication of your alliance. (or tech agreement)
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I assume they pulled a 180 *after* we received the rebuttal from you though
    Memphus says:
    right indicating again your closer tie to them then us and that we made the right call.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    since before that, we had no reason to even discuss it with them, we did not know they were in negotiations with you about it
    Niklas Broberg says:
    well, what I'm saying is that your "right call" *caused* those closer ties at that point
    Niklas Broberg says:
    by pushing many off the fence into the camp that we wouldn't be able to get any better guarantees from you than we had from Kaz
    Memphus says:
    so you agree that us not trading is the right call in hindsight then?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    since you were able to get alpha from Saturn instead, and presumably have an agreement with them over it, it would indeed appear to be the right choice from your perspective
    Niklas Broberg says:
    but that's assuming we would have stayed with Kaz regardless
    Niklas Broberg says:
    we will never know what might have come out of that otherwise
    Memphus says:
    FYI the coordination is pretty evident. Kaz refused the trade on Apr 30th. The same turn we got the letter from you.
    Memphus says:
    so based on that coordination i would say yeah you would of stayed with Kaz regardless.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    that was the second letter
    Niklas Broberg says:
    or rather, the first message was not sent in a letter but on MSN to general_W
    Niklas Broberg says:
    this:
    Niklas Broberg says:
    "We were very pleased to hear that you’ve decided you’d like to make a deal with us for OB and a tech trade to get Metal Casting.
    Unfortunately – when we never heard back from you, we went ahead and pursued another trade for Alphabet… and (even though it’s not 100% final yet) it looks like we’re going to get Alphabet plus another tech in that swap. "
    Niklas Broberg says:
    was sent from you to us on the 21st
    Memphus says:
    right. and the email to us was a reinforcement of you staying in the alliance with kaz
    Memphus says:
    so all this debate aside, are you saying all future tech trades are off the table?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    yes, by the time you got the second letter (not from me) then the decision to stay with Kaz would have been made
    Niklas Broberg says:
    no, that's hopefully not what I'm saying
    Niklas Broberg says:
    what I'm saying is that there is definite resentment in our team over how the last situation was handled
    Niklas Broberg says:
    and that any new trade for MC would likely evoke some bad blood
    Memphus says:
    ditto
    Memphus says:
    (not on the trade part)
    Memphus says:
    so may i ask how do you (or Kaz) plan to get MC? research?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I'm not sure I have clearance to answer that question
    Memphus says:
    so saturn then. cool.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    saturn would be one possibility, trading from you would be another, but as noted we expect you to have an agreement with them over it already
    Memphus says:
    maybe.
    Memphus says:
    so how long until you guys complete the HG?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    and you think I would say that after you stole our oracle? lol
    Memphus says:
    Your Oracle? So does that mean MC is technically your too for free?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    yep, hand it over
    Niklas Broberg says:
    oh, and please forget it too
    Niklas Broberg says:
    the tech I mean
    Niklas Broberg says:
    it was never yours to begin with
    Memphus says:
    now i know why such bad blood.
    Memphus says:
    it was always your tech.
    Memphus says:
    and we were trying to profiteer alpha from it.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    yup, you got that right
    Memphus says:
    i knew i was missing a logic block somewhere.
    Memphus says:
    so can you send the pop points to us in 5 turns then?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    sure, you'll have them from us the moment you forget MC
    Memphus says:
    should I tear down all the forges too?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    of coruse
    Niklas Broberg says:
    and delete all the hammers you have gotten from them in the interim
    Memphus says:
    that is more hammers than kaz produces...they wouldn't appreciate that with our new war
    Memphus says:
    ok so outside of MC
    Memphus says:
    other trades are a possiblity.
    Memphus says:
    (not that we have techs at the moment)
    Memphus says:
    but for Example HBR?
    Memphus says:
    offers on that?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    well, my personal take on that is that HBR is somewhat useless
    Memphus says:
    yes with the great wall for you it would be
    Niklas Broberg says:
    but maybe that's only cause we don't plan to attack anyone
    Niklas Broberg says:
    and yes, the great wall definitely plays into that
    Memphus says:
    so any tech you would want that we can research for you?
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I couldn't discuss that without first discussing with the team
    Memphus says:
    ok that is cool.
    Memphus says:
    time to call it a day? let me know after Kaz has talked to you. you may have more questions
    Memphus says:
    or may want to take up that mercenary offer after all.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    we'll get back to you, or you send us an offer
    Niklas Broberg says:
    I'm in a bit of a busy spell personally, and have been for quite a while now, so it may not be me you talk to next time
    Memphus says:
    for tech or mercenary offer? (or either?)
    Memphus says:
    alright good to know.
    Niklas Broberg says:
    anything
    Niklas Broberg says:
    alright, I've posted this in our forum, we'll be in touch I'm sure



    had to be done in 2 parts...
    :The text that you have entered is too long (40403 characters). Please shorten it to 30000 characters long.
     
  13. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    3,332
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Trent, England
    plaigerist :p

    I like that chat. It got a lot out into the open. I suggest we annotate the text and send it to Saturn asap. I can't do it, I have two exams on monday and tuesday and right now I'm a little too drunk to think straight. From wednesday on I'll be able to help out...

    Thanks, you make me seem like a warmonger :p
     
  14. IamJohn

    IamJohn (was)?

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    674
    Location:
    Out there, somewhere, anywhere...
    and that's different from the truth how? :p

    --
    The chat was interesting, them viewing oracle as theirs though was beyond ridiculous, a wonder isn't yours till it's in your city, and only as long as you have control of the city. *shrug*
     
  15. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Messages:
    7,609
    Location:
    47.48N 117.77W
    Couldn't have said it better!
     
  16. regoarrarr

    regoarrarr Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2001
    Messages:
    846
    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Well I think there's certainly something to be said for viewing that you have an insurmountable lead to the Oracle, and viewing it as yours, and being emotionally attached to it.

    I didn't get the sense that he was being serious in his talking about it as "his"
     
  17. IamJohn

    IamJohn (was)?

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    674
    Location:
    Out there, somewhere, anywhere...
    Frustration at losing the oracle is one thing, but feeling that we were profiteering from trying to wrangle something from it's benefits is nonsense. Right now they're in a very nice place, and they're still griping over things that were quite awhile ago. Yeah sure, it could have gone better with the trade, but get over it, it's a game with five different groups of people, diplo isn't going to be all honor, and they should expect it the way they've run their alliance (and what they continue to claim their alliance as...)
     
  18. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    3,332
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Trent, England
    First sentence = my view while talking with memphus

    second sentence = reality.
     
  19. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    3,332
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Trent, England
    ffs I need to sober up...
     
  20. Krill

    Krill Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    3,332
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Trent, England
    is perfect reasoning.

    Not true. from our perspective.

    from theirs it may be better. it should be better. they are +24 fpt and -24 hpt. We are at war they are not.

    Diplomacy is the key.



    I would marry you but it's illegal in this country.
     

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