Cavaleiros Embassy

[Krill]

My point is the that they did exactly what Memphus alluded to in the last post. They stayed isolated from wars, built wonders, REXed like madmen and bulbed their way to Liberalism. Then they beelined Assembly Line and then founded Sushi and Mining Inc. I expect them to try a similar tactic here!

If they want to do that we can run them very close to liberalism and possibly beat them, if they are working with Kaz.

If we screw up Kaz so much that they focus on war and not GS production I think we can beat everyone else to lib with Saturns help.

Ironically...I'd love a race to liberalism with Cav, means we'd only have to focus on a one front war instead of getting boated.

However, I don't think that oyzar and Niklas would be the sole brains behind Cav, they do have alot of other talent hidden in the team.

 

[Ronnie1]

snip...
However, I don't think that oyzar and Niklas would be the sole brains behind Cav, they do have alot of other talent hidden in the team.

Absolutely true!!! Unconquered Sun and Rusten are both very high level players, so is Munro, but he told me he was not that active.

The REX part of the strategy is already very apparent in their start...

 

[Krill]

Heh...funny thing, they have, what, 9 cities now?

We have 6, with 2 settlers built and moving to position, and another 1 in production, and a barb city waiting to grow. Not like Cav are running away with the game atm

 

[Memphus]

chat with Niklas...was somewhat reasonable.

Spoiler :

Memphus says:
Afternoon! Congradulations on your new government
Niklas Broberg says:
thank you most kindly
Memphus says:
Ever good Beauraucracy needs $$ though.
Niklas Broberg says:
certainly
Memphus says:
we find ourselves wondering where we are in the world
Memphus says:
and have trouble using money without knowing what date it is
Niklas Broberg says:
you're proposing we trade you calendar for your currency?
Memphus says:
well I would propose this ideally
Memphus says:
Currency and MC for Math Calendar and Construction
Niklas Broberg says:
hmm, that's a different beast entirely
Niklas Broberg says:
I can forward this to our forum though
Memphus says:
yes it is, so if construction is off the table then we would still like to work something else out for Calendar
Memphus says:
Currency for Calendar we would also accept, but where the trick is we don't have math yet. So if you threw in math we would trade that right away
Niklas Broberg says:
I'm sure you realize why military techs would be somewhat sensitive to trade away while there's still a war out there
Memphus says:
yes we understand that.
Memphus says:
but our war is alsmot over. (from our perspective) we will be extendign peace soon
Niklas Broberg says:
are you beating Kaz back from the contested zone?
Memphus says:
unless of course you want us to stay at war alittle longer?
Memphus says:
Yes we are. And we have a strong enough force to do be confident in that
Niklas Broberg says:
no one really jumped the idea to pay you to keep up the war, no
Memphus says:
ok cool good to know.
Memphus says:
but yes we figure after this turn or perhaps the next we will offer peace.
Memphus says:
but that shouldn't exclude a trade on calendar? a peaceful tech for Currency? which you will have trade route from immediately to boost your capital even more!
Niklas Broberg says:
don't doubt that we know the benefits of currency
Memphus says:
yes I am sure you do!
Memphus says:
as we also know the benefits of calendar.
Memphus says:
So is that something you can commit to or do both offers need to go back to the team?
Memphus says:
the 3 for 2 and the 2 for 1?
Niklas Broberg says:
I couldn't commit to anything on my own, no
Memphus says:
I understand. If we were to hold up the save on our turn a little would you know by the end of it? As you would undoubtedly want currency prior to your turn for the benefit of the routes.
Niklas Broberg says:
the sooner the better, certainly
Niklas Broberg says:
I'll post this immediately
Memphus says:
do you want me to write up the two proposals formally and send copies of both, your team can then debate and just sign one and send it back?
Memphus says:
I have a 3rd one just to add more debate for you guys
Memphus says:
but it again touches construction so....
Niklas Broberg says:
I don't see why it would hurt, other than cost you time in case we decline
Memphus says:
meh i am made of tiem at work. I like the ivory tower
Niklas Broberg says:
hehe, sure
Niklas Broberg says:
I look forward to your proposals then
Memphus says:
the 3 of them will be comming
Memphus says:
quick question.
Memphus says:
in your opinion would a show stopper for your team be having to send math first?
Memphus says:
because calendar (or construction) can't be traded until after that.
Niklas Broberg says:
we would expect a signed deal to be honored, so no, that would not be a show stopper
Niklas Broberg says:
the higher cost of maths + calendar might be though
Memphus says:
ok good. I was going to over some $$ as a 'retainer' if it was (that could come back on the second phase)
Memphus says:
but math is severly depreciated
Niklas Broberg says:
but that's something the team will have to discuss
Memphus says:
3 teams know it.
Memphus says:
do you want us to put the relevant beaker costs in the proposal?
Memphus says:
so you guys don't need to number crunch? (alstough i am sure someone will verify)
Niklas Broberg says:
not necessary, everyone will be aware of them anyway
Niklas Broberg says:
ok, I posted the chat, now we wait for your letter
Niklas Broberg says:
I need to get back to work in the mean time
Memphus says:
about 20 minutes away
Memphus says:
later!
Niklas Broberg says:
cool
Niklas Broberg says:
cya

 

[Krill]

proposed message to go in 10 minutes!

Spoiler :

Namaste Cavaleiros,

SANCTA is forwarding 3 tech deals, as discussed between Memphus and Niklas. Any three are acceptable to SANCTA, so long as Cavaleiros send an email to SANCTA agreeing to the deal by the start of turn 100.


Deal One

• Sancta gives: Currency (base cost 598, adjusted cost 404)
• Cavaleiros gives: Maths and Calendar (base cost 895, adjusted cost 633)

SENT! @2029 GMT

Deal Two

• Sancta gives: Metal Casting (base cost 673, adjusted cost 501)
• Cavaleiros gives: Maths and Construction (base cost 895, adjusted cost 633)

Deal Three

• Sancta gives: Metal Casting and Currency (base cost 1271, adjusted cost 1077)
• Cavaleiros gives: Maths, Calendar and Construction (base cost 1417, adjusted cost 1001)

As noted, the third tech deal is closer in beaker costs...but involves a military tech that Cavaleiros may not be willing to give up. On the other hand though, Metal casting places Cavaleiros one tech away from maces...whilst SANCTA does not have Civil Service.

SANCTA

SENT! @2029 GMT

 

[Memphus]

We need to make it in 3 JPEGS with our signature. or stamp?

 

[Memphus]

explicitely say the 40 gold is to come back to us on phase 2 of the deal

 

[Memphus]

Also put that this exact deal has been offered to MS. If MS agrees first then obviously...

 

[Ronnie1]

I definitely like the part acknowledging the offer to MS! It adds a bit of urgency, and makes them evaluate MS's usefulness with more new members hopefully showing up!

 

[Krill]

1. I don't know how...emails are good enough for me anyway.
2. that line was deleted as Niklas stated our word was good enough (ie if they agreed to the deal they would forward maths without a counterbalance).
3. Was acknowledged in chat.

Pray they accept offer 3...all we would "need" is HBR and then CS, which is a 7 turn tech to Saturn.

 

[Krill]

Posting for Memphus

Spoiler :

Memphus says:
So Before I end turn did your team decide on the trade or OB?
Niklas Broberg says:
weren't you going to hold the turn for a while?
Memphus says:
yup
Memphus says:
that is what I am doing right now
Memphus says:
well that and our team is discussing one otehr finer point about the war
Niklas Broberg says:
I suppose I can tell you that no one was overly enthusiastic about the trades
Niklas Broberg says:
OB is something we certainly don't mind, but that hasn't been discussed much
Memphus says:
well we could do that before the end of the turn? and at least make 1 step in the right direction?
Niklas Broberg says:
you are aware that you will not have trade routes with us, right?
Memphus says:
we will one day! and like i said i think it is time SANCTA show so faith for once.
Niklas Broberg says:

Memphus says:
so since you guys rejected this time do you want to jump in and offer this time i have fear of double rejection
Niklas Broberg says:
hehe
Niklas Broberg says:
well, the issue is mostly that the deal is quite slanted in your favor
Niklas Broberg says:
I guess I can reveal that we are already researching Currency, which is why your calculations are a bit misleading
Memphus says:
except the last one. that one is quite close.
Memphus says:
we did assume that...but obviously couldn't extrapolate how far you are into it.
Niklas Broberg says:
naturally
Memphus says:
but given that you jsut finished CS and revolted last turn....it can't be too high of an investment.
Niklas Broberg says:
we had actually started Currency earlier, but switched out of it
Memphus says:
ahhh makes sense
Memphus says:
so does your team have a counter offer?
Niklas Broberg says:
well, it's a bit tricky to give a counter offer
Niklas Broberg says:
the only reasonable one would be currency for maths alone, which is somewhat slanted in our favor instead, and I doubt you woudl accept that
Memphus says:
we potentially would if it came with a no trade clause on it
Niklas Broberg says:
ah, a no trade clause, that's quite a different can of worms of course
Memphus says:
well yes but you can udnerstand why we wouldn't want KAz to get it.
Memphus says:
and well math is a quite q cheap tech. 2 turns to research in fact.
Niklas Broberg says:
yep, which is why I expected you wouldn't agree to it
Niklas Broberg says:
may I ask what your next research target is?
Niklas Broberg says:
you obviously know ours now
Memphus says:
depends on if we trade with you or not...
Memphus says:
math kinda locks up alot of techs
Niklas Broberg says:
ah, of course
Memphus says:
so what about a bigger commitment then?
Niklas Broberg says:
so if you were to trade with us, the next target would be CS?
Niklas Broberg says:
well, that's what I'm investigating here
Memphus says:
polytheism maybe?
Memphus says:
or yeah CS
Memphus says:
are you guys interested in Feudalism?
Niklas Broberg says:
only of course I can't commit to anything on my own, so it's all hypothetical
Memphus says:
as I assume you originally had that comming to you from cause.
Memphus says:
*cause = Kaz
Niklas Broberg says:
who wouldn't be interested in that?
Niklas Broberg says:
why would we not be able to get it from Kaz?
Memphus says:
is Kaz researching it?
Niklas Broberg says:
not researching but trading
Memphus says:
With MS?
Niklas Broberg says:
with Saturn presumably
Memphus says:
News to me. LoL
Memphus says:
Is it Ok If I post that?
Niklas Broberg says:
why wouldn't it be?
Niklas Broberg says:
I'm only speculating here anyway, so it's nothing sensitive
Memphus says:
Cause I was going over your's and G_W chats and when it concerned other teams it got edited out sometimes...much to my curiosity's dismay
Niklas Broberg says:
ah, there's a simple reason for that
Niklas Broberg says:
we were discussing pieces that involved other games, where we didn't want other players in those games to know what was said
Niklas Broberg says:
like our respective in-house pitboss games
Memphus says:
makes sense!
Memphus says:
quite note on Currency though for you (which I am sure you know)
Memphus says:
with 9 cities, and OB with us that is 18 commerce minimum extra per turn
Niklas Broberg says:
I'm aware of the boost
Memphus says:
so even if you get currency 3-4 turns earlier with your academy and other multiplier math for currency gives you guys quite the swing...
Niklas Broberg says:
it does, yes
Niklas Broberg says:
but it also comes with a diplomatic can of worms, as noted
Niklas Broberg says:
I will forward the idea to the team though
Memphus says:
we do plan to offer peace to Kaz next turn potentially
Niklas Broberg says:
personally I'm not entirely opposed to the idea, but others may have some reasons that I haven't thought of
Memphus says:
Ok well do you want to end on that then and the OB?
Niklas Broberg says:
might as well, I'll post this log and we'll get back to you before you need to end turn
Memphus says:
if you offer OB now Ill end turn in 5 minutes
Niklas Broberg says:
haha, I know you're eager but I can't make that decision
Memphus says:
or do you mean on the trade too?
Niklas Broberg says:
on the trade too
Memphus says:
ahhh gotcha
Memphus says:
so you could let me know that by end of turn?
Memphus says:
If it is a yes, then please just send it to us in writing with a signature / crest
Niklas Broberg says:
I can at least give you an indication of whether it's a flat out no, an overwhelming yes, or a big inhouse cat fight
Memphus says:
Math for Currency, with No trade to MS or Kaz
Niklas Broberg says:
noted
Niklas Broberg says:
I'll post it now, then I need to be off
Memphus says:
later!
Niklas Broberg says:
posted - later
Memphus says:
Oh btw I need to say thank you
Niklas Broberg says:
you're welcome
Niklas Broberg says:
what grants me the honor?
Memphus says:
A dead Kaz chariot!
Niklas Broberg says:
and how am I to be thanked for that?
Niklas Broberg says:
that I'm holding up the game so you could discuss the attack longer?
Memphus says:
yeah i was going to to make the safe move originally
Memphus says:
and end turn
Memphus says:
but because i was waiting for you guys some of us chatted a little more and went for the crazy play.
Memphus says:
but it paid off
Niklas Broberg says:
my pleasure then

 

[Krill]

Most important thing I take from that chat is I think Niklas is lying through his teeth. I think MS are researching currency...Cav could probably research it in 4 turns without anything put towards it, so if they have already got research in it and can get it in 3 or less turns, then why even trade with teh team they see as the primary enemy?

I think they are further away than they admit, but they still think they are getting fued from Kaz, which gives Saturn maths which we would then get...I think that Cav think we aren't getting techs from Saturn on the cheap, and so are trying to give us and saturn the same tech for two different techs on our side. Which is stupid but I can't think of any other reasonable explanations for what they are doing.

I'd be tempted to tell Saturn that we can forward them the gold the need next turn to keep on researching at 100% into maths, and when they finish maths they gift us the gold needed to upgrade the archer (so maths researched t101, gifted and upgraded on t102). Basically stall Cav on currency for a bit...

 

[Memphus]

Another non productive chat with Cav.

Spoiler :

Niklas Broberg says:
you really couldn't wait eh?
Memphus says:
*Note I waited 8 hours to respond*
Would it of made a difference? OB can still be done now.
Niklas Broberg says:
it gives us less time to discuss
Memphus says:
So you wern't intending to answer prior to the end of our turn?
Niklas Broberg says:
as I told you before, I could at least give an indication on the discussion prior to you ending the turn
Memphus says:
right, but the benefit of the sustained OB, or the bonus for you guys would only have had an effect if they were open prior to the ending of our turn. So without that it doesn't matter until next turn now.
Niklas Broberg says:
prior to the ending of *your* turn?
Niklas Broberg says:
you just said it didn't make a difference and that OB can still be done now
Niklas Broberg says:
congratulations on your ratoseum btw
Memphus says:
yeah because OB are calculated at the start of the turn for whichever CiV it recalculates, so your benefit would have been getting OB prior to the turn.
Niklas Broberg says:
so then it *does* make a difference that you ended the turn
Niklas Broberg says:
and you were aware of that
Memphus says:
nope. because you still don't have an answer.
Niklas Broberg says:
I didn't hurry to find one since you had already ended the turn
Memphus says:
and the clock would of rolled by now on it's own.
Niklas Broberg says:
now it's our turn we're holding
Niklas Broberg says:
it would have if you had held it yes, but we would have known you were holding it and waiting
Niklas Broberg says:
and regardless there is no way you could have known last night whether we would have had an answer for your or not
Memphus says:
I knew I wouldn't have an answer, only a "direction"
Memphus says:
so to hold up the game on an indication seems silly.
Niklas Broberg says:
you would have a direction on the tech trade, yes
Memphus says:
and the OB part.
Memphus says:
you never seperated the two.
Memphus says:
either way it doesn't really matter now. If you guys decide you want the OB you can offer them.
Niklas Broberg says:
you seriously can't mean that you considered it impossible that we would have decided whether we wanted OB or not before you ended your turn
Niklas Broberg says:
well, it doesn't matter since we can't go back, but it does matter by setting a tone for any continued negotiations
Memphus says:
"Niklas Broberg says:
I can at least give you an indication of whether it's a flat out no, an overwhelming yes, or a big inhouse cat fight "
Memphus says:
that was following:
Memphus says:
Memphus says:
if you offer OB now Ill end turn in 5 minutes
Niklas Broberg says:
haha, I know you're eager but I can't make that decision

Niklas Broberg says:
no, it was in response to what you said just before that
Niklas Broberg says:
even if the answer came later
Niklas Broberg says:
you asked whether the answer would be regarding the tech trade too, or just the OB
Memphus says:
So where then was indication that there would be a descision on OB prior to ending turn?
Niklas Broberg says:
Niklas Broberg säger:
you seriously can't mean that you considered it impossible that we would have decided whether we wanted OB or not before you ended your turn
Niklas Broberg says:
I'm repeating myself
Niklas Broberg says:
here's the thing
Memphus says:
that was today?
Niklas Broberg says:
you knew that it mattered whether the turn was ended or not
Niklas Broberg says:
yes, that was just a few minutes ago
Memphus says:
So yesterday then: Niklas Broberg says: you most certainly won't have an answer in 4-5 hours
Niklas Broberg says:
you knew that we would have some answer for you before you needed to end the turn
Niklas Broberg says:
and you knew that I asked you not to end the turn early
Memphus says:
from that i logged in an ended turn
Memphus says:
communication seems pretty succinct?
Memphus says:
if you had planned on an answer your reply would of been:
Memphus says:
answer in 4-5 hours but I can let you know in 12.
Niklas Broberg says:
huh?
Memphus says:
Find me a post from you yesterday where you tell me that you will have an answer for OB withing ~20 hours the time that was remaining in our turn.
Memphus says:
So the tone as you have put it has been from you yesterday, being non commital, and then trying to spin it on me today.
Niklas Broberg says:
Niklas Broberg säger:
you most certainly won't have an answer in 4-5 hours
why the hurry?
Memphus säger:
Niklas Broberg says:
why the hurry?
Niklas Broberg säger:
gotta be some 20 hours left on the clock or so?
or am I completely off there?
Memphus säger:
20 hours 13 min.

Niklas Broberg says:
I may have been wrong, and my point may not have gone through, but I thought it was pretty clear that I was asking you not to end your turn early *at all*
Niklas Broberg says:
I also said the following
Niklas Broberg says:
Niklas Broberg säger:
might as well, I'll post this log and we'll get back to you before you need to end turn¨
Memphus says:
Memphus säger:
20 hours 13 min....

after that you should of said: I will get back to you in 18 hours or something, but you didn't
Niklas Broberg says:
"before you *need* to end the turn"
Niklas Broberg says:
why should I have said that?
Niklas Broberg says:
what in the message wasn't totally clear?
Niklas Broberg says:
we'll get back to you before you need to end the turn
Niklas Broberg says:
you don't need to end the turn until the timer runs out
Niklas Broberg says:
what's there to misunderstand?
Memphus says:
Niklas Broberg says:
you don't need to end the turn until the timer runs out
Memphus says:
Yes we do.
Memphus says:
We are at war
Memphus says:
every minute after our moves on Kaz gives them more time to prepare
Niklas Broberg says:
ok, ok, let's just agree to disagree here then
Memphus says:
sure, works for me.
Niklas Broberg says:
you and I are clearly playing two very different games
Memphus says:
Yes....yes we are. Commerce versus hammers.
Niklas Broberg says:
you know that's not what I mean
Memphus says:
then what do you mean?
Niklas Broberg says:
what I mean is that I'm playing a game that I fully expect to last for a few years, and where I think every team should get as much time as possible for everything they want to do, and that holdups to the game are a positive rather than a negative
Niklas Broberg says:
" every minute after our moves on Kaz gives them more time to prepare"
Niklas Broberg says:
and why shouldn't they?
Memphus says:
I also expect it to last a couple of years until you guys backstab and kill ms
Memphus says:
Kaz shouldn't prepare because if they had planned before they would of backed down
Niklas Broberg says:
now you're mixing ingame with out-of-game
Memphus says:
it is the same game...
Niklas Broberg says:
no, it definitely is not the same thing
Niklas Broberg says:
ingame I may wish for every possible evil to befall our opponents, so that we may win the game
Niklas Broberg says:
but those evils do not extend to the metagame
Niklas Broberg says:
meaning, I wouldn't want all the turn players on a different team to have their computers crash so that they no longer can play a good game
Niklas Broberg says:
I want everyone to play the best game they can, and I want to give them the chance to do that
Niklas Broberg says:
so if a team wants or needs time to prepare, they should get that time
Niklas Broberg says:
it's great for you guys if you can have a majority online on MSN to make immediate decisions
Niklas Broberg says:
no other team works that way
Memphus says:
I suppose, but really descisions are simple to be made...
Memphus says:
post a poll
Niklas Broberg says:
I despise polls
Niklas Broberg says:
they lead to seriously skewed results
Niklas Broberg says:
and to give people a chance to respond, they would need to be up for at least 24 hours
Niklas Broberg says:
and that's without any discussion
Memphus says:
then have a turn player who can make a descision for the team? based on the teams feelings?
Niklas Broberg says:
we do have that
Niklas Broberg says:
but not without waiting to first assess what those team feelings are
Memphus says:
then that is a lack of planning for the team
Niklas Broberg says:
depends on what you are planning for
Memphus says:
everything
Niklas Broberg says:
we have moved the game fast when there hasn't been any diplomacy involved
Memphus says:
our team has weighed in on let's say you guys tell us you give us tech to go to war with MS
Niklas Broberg says:
but we can't plan for getting trade suggestions from other teams
Memphus says:
so if you offered that to me i would know how to steer the convo
Memphus says:
sure you can.
Memphus says:
Teams A,b,C have techs X,Y,Z
Memphus says:
possiblities are Q,R,S
Memphus says:
so you know the direction.
Niklas Broberg says:
then I think you simply overestimate the time each of us has to spend on planning
Niklas Broberg says:
there are a ton of directions that *could* happen
Memphus says:
really?
Niklas Broberg says:
we have little time as it is, and spend that time on realities instead of what might be

Needless to Say I won't be chatting to him anymore (starting convo's)

 

[IamJohn]

It's pretty pathetic how seriously they take themselves, it's great that they want to play the game honorably and all, but gees, it's a good thing the teams arn't kaz/Saturn vs Sancta/Cav...

 

[sooooo]

Oh my lord, this Niklas character ...

 

[Krill]

Academics aren't routed in the real world...

 

[azzaman333]

It fair to say cavs are running thier team very differently to us.

 

[IamJohn]

Not just the team, the game, look at the mis-sent letter in particular.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I like Niklas.

We may be running differently, but different isn't bad. It's just different.

 

[Krill]

Really? Because he's acting like a smeghead.